Does anyone know BHW manual trans swap

FollowTheBlackRabbit

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Does anyone know which 5 or 6 speed manual transmission would bolt up to a BHW 2.0 PD TDI?

I love my 05 variant, but i hate the fact that its an auto...

I know id need to fab up/source slave cylinder stuff and pedal cluster, but I think the main thing is figuring out which trans code matches...

Anyone?
 

oilhammer

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Nothing imported to the US will work. You can bolt in all the 1.8t stuff, but it will be geared too low.

I hate slushboxes too, but that is the only way we got the B5 TDIs. Good news, though, the 01V transmission is the ZF 5HP-19FLA and is a pretty stout unit. They seem to hold up well.

Recoding them to sport mode helps with better shift mapping IMHO.
 

FollowTheBlackRabbit

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yeah, i started playing with the VAG-com yesterday seeing which controllers i can play with.

I know the 01Z is a POS, but the 01V is white a bit better (can handle the W8)

I just keep reaching for a clutch only to not find one...

Even if a correctly geared manual is in.. say.. Canada, it might almost be worth the freight
 

TDIsyncro

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You can bolt up any of the Audi front wheel drive trannies - 01A variants..not sure what you need to do for the tranny mounts..may be plug and play, may be not. You can try swapping in a 3rd gear from a parts tranny to your 5th, but reverse the shaft sides...might work..otherwise you are looking at around 1500.00 for a 5 speed import or 2500.00 for a 6 speed import with TDI gears. Scott DeWitt has regular shipments of this stuff. Not sure who else. You can use Audi 1.8T flywheel and pressure plate. It will bolt right up and work with your starter, crank face and tranny spline.
 

JungleDeath

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Sell this idea to my wife please...

So on the fence with this same idea...

Scott DeWitt is the guy to talk to: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=233879

I will get back to this thread when I get the info (I wrote it all down)...but,

NA W8 Passat's came with 6 speeds (rare)
NA V6 Passats and Audi's came with 5 speeds and come close to TDi ratios, but not quite (not so rare).

I have to research more Audi trans stuff.

Compare a rebuilt 5/6 speed from a NA V6 gas Passat/Audi with the correct gears or ring gear. It may be worth having one rebuilt/custom built and put some sort of diff lock in there like a Quaife, Peloquin, Torsen, or Wavetrack.

There are some yards that package together tranny swaps; find them. Scott is one of them AND is quite knowledgeable with TDi's. Keep that in mind.

It will be the little crap (brackets, cables, mounts) that will get you. Also don't forget an ecu that speaks manual tranny, not auto tranny.
 

oilhammer

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There actually was a manual version listed in ETKA in parts lookup, but no actual engine in the engine list. Essentially, that engine (a 2.0L 8 valve PD TDI) was never bolted to a manual transmission in any market anywhere. ETKA does show the BGW engine listed for manual trans versions (essentially a BHW without the balance shafts) but that engine is not in the engine list.

As I understand it, B5 TDIs in Europe, if equipped with a manual, are a 1.9L, a 16v 2.0L PD (which bolts to a 6 speed), or the V6 TDI, which is a different bolt pattern anyways.

The 1.8t B5 stuff is the closest thing you'll have, but like I said the gearing would not be favorable to the BHW's nearly 250 pounds of twist at only 1900 RPMs.

The engine ECU could likely be recoded, that is not a problem. VAG uses the same ECUs in manual or auto cars, they just have different soft coding.
 

leicaman

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I think the best would be for you to hope VW sends us the B6 with a manual and a TDI. Of course that is probably a pipe dream.
 

PlaneCrazy

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I just ended up getting a B6 2.0T 6-sp manual. With the cost of diesel these days, my operating costs are about equal to my wife's B5.5 TDI anyway. Somewhat less torque (207 vs 247), but quite a bit more hp (200 vs 134), so the result is that the car is considerably quicker. The torque curve is at least similar to a TDI in that it peaks at around 1800 rpm; however unlike the TDI, the party lasts until 5000 rpm :D

Summer fuel economy is in the mid-30s highway. Tank range, up to 600 miles.

There are pretty good deals on 2.0T Passat Trendline wagons these days. Better pick up a 2008 quick though, in the US, in 2009, there will only be automatics in US Passats except the CC. Up here in Canada we're more fortunate, we can still get manuals in 2009 on all 2.0T trims.
 

volkswagendude

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oilhammer said:
I hate slushboxes too, but that is the only way we got the B5 TDIs. Good news, though, the 01V transmission is the ZF 5HP-19FLA and is a pretty stout unit. They seem to hold up well.

Recoding them to sport mode helps with better shift mapping IMHO.
Oilhammer, based on the transmission code name you posted, this is the same transmission used on the following VW/Audi cars: 5HP19FLA = A4 (quattro 1.8, 2.8), S4 (quattro 2.7), A6 (quattro 2.7, 2.8, 3.0 ), Allroad (quattro 2.7), VW Passat W8 4motion, Input Torque = 420 Nm (~310 Ft/Lb).

Many of these Audi cars are frequently chipped to at least 380 lb-ft of torque!

But then there are people on these forums who suggest that an RC3 would be too much torque for our B5.5 transmissions(adds 90 lb-ft over stock figure), including Jeff(Rocketchip) himself. Now I'm confused.... :confused:
 

oilhammer

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Yes, the Audi A4/S4 rides on the same platform as the B5 Passat and uses the same transmission.

The Audi A6 rides on a bigger platform, and not sure which the 6 cyl versions get, but the V8s get the ZF 5HP-22 (VAG number 01L) which is a bigger but similar transmission to the ZF 5HP-19 series.

The easiest way to tell the difference is the number of ribs on the bottom of the front differential area. The 22 has a couple more than the 19, but I cannot remember just how many each has.

Keep in mind that handling the output of the engine is also somewhat dictated by what RPMs that output is achieved. It is MUCH harder to keep a TC clutch locked in place behind 200 lbs of torque at 2000 RPMs as it would be to keep it locked at 200 lbs at 3000 RPMs, because the higher the RPMs, the higher the ATF pressure can potentially be.
 
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volkswagendude

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^^^The last two lines you wrote are excellent points!

Here is something that I forgot to copy and paste from this Audi Wiki page concerning the aforementioned transmission(s). I'm sorry to dwell on this, but it's just that I really want to know what our transmissions are capable of, and which variation our TDI's do have. The ZF 5HP-19FLA was already mentioned up above, but there seems to be one other one without the letter A in the end. The one without the letter A is a weaker one as far as potential maximum power capabilities are concerned. Here is the copy and paste of the info.

B5 A4/S4 (ZF 5HP19FL and ZF 5HP19FLA)

There are two different automatic transmissions in the B5 A4s. In 1998, Audi introduced the Tiptronic feature. There was no change to the transmission, only the control module and shifter. If your A4 is Frontrak (front wheel drive) you have the ZF 5HP19FL tranny. If your A4 is quattro or you have an S4 you have the ZF 5HP19FLA. The 5HP19FLA in the quattro cars is designed to handle more torque than the 5HP19FL in the Frontrak cars.
Max Torque Specs:
5HP19FL = A4 (1.8, 2.8), A6 (2.8), A8 (3.7) Input Torque = 310 Nm (~ 228 Ft/Lb)
5HP19FLA = A4 (quattro 1.8, 2.8), S4 (quattro 2.7), A6 (quattro 2.7, 2.8, 3.0 ), Allroad (quattro 2.7), VW Passat W8 4motion, Input Torque = 420 Nm (~310 Ft/Lb)

Many people have said that the B5 A4 auto tranny is weak. Some people say the transmission is a lot stronger than most people say. Let me put forth some reasoning on the subject.
Some people that believe the A4 auto tranny is weak don't realize there are two different versions. Looking at the torque specs listed above, it is obvious that the Frontrak transmission is weaker than the quattro transmission.
The A4 quattro 5HP19FLA transmission is also used in the B5 S4 cars. They are frequently chipped to 382lb-ft torque (APR chip) and run just fine for years. One person (Cole on Audizine) claims 431lb-ft of torque to the wheels on his S4 with an upgraded torque converter. The only known differences between stock B4 A4 quattro and B5 S4 transmissions are the gear ratio and the torque converter.
A lot of people don't think about upgrading transmission components on the automatic transmissions when they start putting a lot of torque down. With a manual transmission, wouldn't you expect the clutch to start slipping and need an upgrade when you start putting down some real power? The same goes for the automatic transmission. When you upgrade the torque converter and valve body in the transmission it can handle a lot more power safely.

The rest of the article can be found here. http://www.audiwiki.net/Automatic_Transmission

So with all that Oilhammer, I wanted to assume 100%, that our B5.5 Passat TDI has the "FLA" one and NOT the "FL" tranny. If so, then this will make me feel MUCH BETTER that my car is not equipped with the more durable stick, and I MIGHT just as well take the tuning on the car a smidgen further than the RC2 and upgrade the turbo when this one(if ever) decides to bite the dust.
 

oilhammer

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I believe they all say 'FLA' on the trans tag, as in 1998 they changed some stuff on those ZF autoboxes. The changes mainly were to the valve body, as there were some plugs that could loosen up and drop out causing all sorts of problems. And of course they added the Tip feature, but that is all on the control side, nothing internal to the trans.

There is virtually no internal differences to the FWD or AWD 5HP-19 transmissions, so I am not sure how one would be able to handle more output that the other. In fact, I bet you could remove the rear housing of the FWD unit and bolt on the rear housing with the rear drive flange and convert them over, they are otherwise identical. All the internals are the same.

I have however not had any of these particular units apart, as I have never had any reason to. I have replaced a couple output shaft speed sensors. I did see one fail due to a severely smashed pan that broke the filter pickup tube and resulted in ATF starvation.
 

JungleDeath

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PlaneCrazy said:
...snip...I just ended up getting a B6 2.0T 6-sp manual. With the cost of diesel these days, my operating costs are about equal to my wife's B5.5 TDI anyway. Somewhat less torque (207 vs 247), but quite a bit more hp (200 vs 134), so the result is that the car is considerably quicker. The torque curve is at least similar to a TDI in that it peaks at around 1800 rpm; however unlike the TDI, the party lasts until 5000 rpm :D...snip...
The dyno's I have seen (06-08 GTi's,) do not have a torque peak at 1800. It's more like 3400-3600. The dyno's also do not start till 2500 which is approx 175lb-ft. At 4500 rpms, the 2.0T is generating @ 225lb-ft, after chip tune, which may be more or less than the TDi at the same rpm.
The 2.0T is a mean little motor. Simple chip tunes make them even meaner.

With RC2, I'm guessing I'm at 160/290. If your wife is not tuned, she should be. If she was, you may see things differently as far as performance matching is concerned between the two.

A manual trans would make this car so-much-more fun to drive. It would feel a lot faster...not what I need.
 
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oilhammer

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And the 2.0t has been replaced with another 2.0t....the latter of which I am not so thrilled with but we'll see how they hold up. It is a totally different family of engines, BTW.
 

volkswagendude

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oilhammer said:
And the 2.0t has been replaced with another 2.0t....the latter of which I am not so thrilled with but we'll see how they hold up. It is a totally different family of engines, BTW.
Is it because the new one is chain driven instead of belt?
 

oilhammer

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PlaneCrazy said:
So you're saying that I am better off with the original version of the 2.0T which uses a timing belt (good for 180,000 km incidentally)?
I would say so yes, but there is NO WAY I would let that belt go that long. We have already had a couple Audi A4s with that generation of engine break them at around 60k miles.
 

oilhammer

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Looks like early 1.8t early timing belt failures all over again to me. The last one was on a 2005 Audi A4 with 58k miles. The PM schedule on that car says 'check' at 60k and replace at 105k :rolleyes:

I tell all my 1.8t customers that 75k is the most I would recommend they go. Although the later 1.8ts are MUCH less likely to have early failure (there are about 7 different 1.8t engines, BTW). It was the early EA827 versions that were the worst. The later EA113 versions not so bad, and that is what your 2.0t is based on, so you would think they would have learned their lesson. :eek:
 

PlaneCrazy

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Oilhammer, does the 2.5 use a chain or belt?

I am thinking, to recoup some of my stock market losses, that my next car may be a very basic Jetta or Rabbit (manual of course), when the 2.0T's lease expires in 2 years. But then I'll have to review the market at that time (and weigh in the possibility of buying out the 2.0T lease).

I would expect that a 2.5, long-term, would be cheaper to maintain than the 2.0T, plus it burns RUG though it is slightly less fuel-efficient than the 2.0T. And 170 hp is plenty for me.

Any gotchas that you've seen on the 2.5 besides the fact that it is basically a boat anchor design?
 

oilhammer

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PlaneCrazy said:
Oilhammer, does the 2.5 use a chain or belt?

I am thinking, to recoup some of my stock market losses, that my next car may be a very basic Jetta or Rabbit (manual of course), when the 2.0T's lease expires in 2 years. But then I'll have to review the market at that time (and weigh in the possibility of buying out the 2.0T lease).

I would expect that a 2.5, long-term, would be cheaper to maintain than the 2.0T, plus it burns RUG though it is slightly less fuel-efficient than the 2.0T. And 170 hp is plenty for me.

Any gotchas that you've seen on the 2.5 besides the fact that it is basically a boat anchor design?
The 2.5L inline 5 cyl in the Eurovan uses a belt.

The 2.5L VR5 used in some Euro cars uses two chains.

The 2.5L inline 5s used in current Rabbit/Jetta/NB in the USA only :rolleyes: uses a chain.

The 2.5L inline 5 TDI used in the T'reg T5 uses gears.
 

PlaneCrazy

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Any feelings on how the 2.5 stacks up overall? VW is selling boatloads of these things in Montreal. The Jetta and Rabbit appear to be one of the most popular cars on the streets of Montreal. I would say I seem to see more new Jettas than current generation Accords. The base price on a Jetta up here is fairly attractive at just under $22k for a Trendline. The Trendline is especially popular.
 

oilhammer

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PlaneCrazy said:
Any feelings on how the 2.5 stacks up overall? VW is selling boatloads of these things in Montreal. The Jetta and Rabbit appear to be one of the most popular cars on the streets of Montreal. I would say I seem to see more new Jettas than current generation Accords. The base price on a Jetta up here is fairly attractive at just under $22k for a Trendline. The Trendline is especially popular.
OK, Planecrazy, you did not get the hint....but I will assume you are talking about the current generation of the inline 2.5L (of which there are about 4 IIRC). ;)

These are too young to tell how well they hold up. I would defer to previous VAG chain driven OHC engines for anything useful (in which case, 200k miles and get your wallet out, if not sooner).
 

PlaneCrazy

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Ah. OK. I'm slow these days (on vacation). Thing is, I'd love a new TDI but at my last fill-up I couldn't help but notice that diesel is STILL 17 cents a liter higher than premium, and this has been going on since ULSD came out up here, and was the case last summer in the period when typically diesel was lower.

So the math on a new TDI doesn't add up. However that my change 2 years from now, and hopefully VW will have shaken the bugs out of the new TDIs by then. I still prefer VW to anything else (affordable) out there at the moment, even as a gasser.
 

yatzee

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sorry to resurrect an old thread, but i'm (once again) thinking about upgrading to a Passat.

Oilhammer stated that a 1.8t manual transmission would bolt up, but that the ratios wouldn't be a good match.

Any thoughts if we changed the R&P before installation?

I've been trying to track down ratios of the VW 1.8t transmission and the tdi auto transmissions, but I'm not having any luck....
 

oilhammer

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Might try the V6 unit. All the B5 transmissions have dual bolt patterns. I have to think the V6 version is geared higher than the 1.8t. Lots of other stuff different though.
 
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