Any one care to comment on this quote from a hybrid chat site:
Sorry but as far as I can see "clean diesel" is nothing more than marketing hype. Right up there with "clean coal". It may be cleaner than it was, but thats not really saying much. I am really concerned that people are buying this hype and honestly believe their new diesel is going to save the world. Its kind of sad to see Honda and Toyota heading down that path as well. Lets take a look at how the emissions on a few "new" diesels stack up:
2008 Mercedes E320 Bluetec vs. 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid
CO2 (g/mi): 387.85 vs. 258.47 (50% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 2.88 vs. 0 (inf higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.165 vs. 0.01 (1550% or 16.5X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): 0.0814 vs. 0.006 (1257% or 13.6X higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
PM (g/mi): 0.002 vs. 0 (inf higher) asthma, lung development problems in children
2008 VW Toureg Diesel vs 2007 Lexus RX400h 4WD
CO2 (g/mi): 593.18 vs. 338.0 (75.5% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0.08 vs. 0 (inf higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.57 vs. 0.01 (5600% or 57X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): 0.0176 vs. 0.007 (152% or 2.5X higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
PM (g/mi): 0.007 vs. 0 (inf higher) asthma, lung development problems in children
2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD Diesel vs. 2008 Toyota Highlander Hybrid 4WD
CO2 (g/mi): 530.74 vs. 338.0 (57% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0 vs. 0 (even) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.4 vs. 0 (inf higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): Not Reported vs. 0.008 Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
HC-NM (g/mi): 0.006 vs. 0.001 (500% or 6X higher) hydrocarbons, water pollution, ground ozone, smog
PM (g/mi): 0.007 vs. 0 (inf higher) asthma, lung development problems in children
2008 VW Jetta TDI
Failed meet minimum emissions requirements, being revised
2006 VW Jetta Wagon TDI vs. 2006 Toyota Prius
CO2 (g/mi): 305.58 vs. 191.04 (60% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0.11 vs. 0.1 (10% higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.55 vs. 0.01 (5400% or 55X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): 0.0123 vs. 0.009 (37% higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
HC-NM+NOX-COMP (g/mi): 0.824 vs. 0.03 (2647% or 27.5X higher) composite of main smog ingredients
PM (g/mi): 0.069 vs. 0 (inf higher) asthma, lung development problems in children
What I found most surprising in this analysis was that the Camry, Highlander, and RX400h are all actually cleaner than the Prius (ignoring CO2)! I assume this is just a matter of newer tech, as Prius was a few years older design wise. Hopefully next rev will see the same improvements. The other interesting thing was how bad the Vue Hybrid looked compared to the Escape.
2007 Saturn Vue Hybrid vs. 2007 Ford Escape Hybrid
CO2 (g/mi): 338.0 vs. 292.93 (15% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 2.4 vs. 0.1 (2300% or 24X higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.04 vs. 0.02 (100% or 2X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): 0.062 vs. 0.006 (933% or 10.3X higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
HC-NM+NOX-COMP (g/mi): 0.05 vs. 0.01 (400% or 5X higher) composite of main smog ingredients
All emissions data is from:
Annual Certification Test Results & Data | Cars and Light Trucks | US EPA
Wherever possible, federal test data at 120 or 150k miles has been used for a fair comparison. CO2 g/mi is calculated from 2008 calc EPA composite mileage using the EPA/DOE conversion factors of 8788 g/gal for gasoline and 10084 g/gal for diesel. These can be found here:
Emission Facts: Average Carbon Dioxide Emissions Resulting from Gasoline and Diesel Fuel | US EPA
Biodiesel helps somewhat, but not nearly as much as people seem to think. It seems like every day I hear some yahoo claiming his H1 running biodiesel has no emissions. According to this data:
http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/f.../emissions.pdf
It reduces most pollutants by about a factor of 2 (not counting NOx which gets slightly worse). Given that many of the diesels above are often worse by a factor of 10-20, that doesn't really even put a dent in the problem. There is also not much basis for the carbon nuetral claims. That _may_ be true if you make your own bd from waste veggie oil using no energy. Sadly we don't eat nearly enough french fries to run all our cars this way. Large scale vegatable oil production will probably require sources like the plam plantations of SE asia, which are an environmental disaster in the making. If its 3X cheaper than American corn or soy bean oil, what do you want to bet thats what people will go with?
Palm oil: the biofuel of the future driving an ecological disaster now | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
I would really like to be wrong about this. I really want to convert my Land Rover to Diesel and run it on bio. Can't quite seem to rationalize it based on these numbers though.
Sorry but as far as I can see "clean diesel" is nothing more than marketing hype. Right up there with "clean coal". It may be cleaner than it was, but thats not really saying much. I am really concerned that people are buying this hype and honestly believe their new diesel is going to save the world. Its kind of sad to see Honda and Toyota heading down that path as well. Lets take a look at how the emissions on a few "new" diesels stack up:
2008 Mercedes E320 Bluetec vs. 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid
CO2 (g/mi): 387.85 vs. 258.47 (50% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 2.88 vs. 0 (inf higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.165 vs. 0.01 (1550% or 16.5X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): 0.0814 vs. 0.006 (1257% or 13.6X higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
PM (g/mi): 0.002 vs. 0 (inf higher) asthma, lung development problems in children
2008 VW Toureg Diesel vs 2007 Lexus RX400h 4WD
CO2 (g/mi): 593.18 vs. 338.0 (75.5% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0.08 vs. 0 (inf higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.57 vs. 0.01 (5600% or 57X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): 0.0176 vs. 0.007 (152% or 2.5X higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
PM (g/mi): 0.007 vs. 0 (inf higher) asthma, lung development problems in children
2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD Diesel vs. 2008 Toyota Highlander Hybrid 4WD
CO2 (g/mi): 530.74 vs. 338.0 (57% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0 vs. 0 (even) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.4 vs. 0 (inf higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): Not Reported vs. 0.008 Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
HC-NM (g/mi): 0.006 vs. 0.001 (500% or 6X higher) hydrocarbons, water pollution, ground ozone, smog
PM (g/mi): 0.007 vs. 0 (inf higher) asthma, lung development problems in children
2008 VW Jetta TDI
Failed meet minimum emissions requirements, being revised
2006 VW Jetta Wagon TDI vs. 2006 Toyota Prius
CO2 (g/mi): 305.58 vs. 191.04 (60% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0.11 vs. 0.1 (10% higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.55 vs. 0.01 (5400% or 55X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): 0.0123 vs. 0.009 (37% higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
HC-NM+NOX-COMP (g/mi): 0.824 vs. 0.03 (2647% or 27.5X higher) composite of main smog ingredients
PM (g/mi): 0.069 vs. 0 (inf higher) asthma, lung development problems in children
What I found most surprising in this analysis was that the Camry, Highlander, and RX400h are all actually cleaner than the Prius (ignoring CO2)! I assume this is just a matter of newer tech, as Prius was a few years older design wise. Hopefully next rev will see the same improvements. The other interesting thing was how bad the Vue Hybrid looked compared to the Escape.
2007 Saturn Vue Hybrid vs. 2007 Ford Escape Hybrid
CO2 (g/mi): 338.0 vs. 292.93 (15% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 2.4 vs. 0.1 (2300% or 24X higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.04 vs. 0.02 (100% or 2X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): 0.062 vs. 0.006 (933% or 10.3X higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
HC-NM+NOX-COMP (g/mi): 0.05 vs. 0.01 (400% or 5X higher) composite of main smog ingredients
All emissions data is from:
Annual Certification Test Results & Data | Cars and Light Trucks | US EPA
Wherever possible, federal test data at 120 or 150k miles has been used for a fair comparison. CO2 g/mi is calculated from 2008 calc EPA composite mileage using the EPA/DOE conversion factors of 8788 g/gal for gasoline and 10084 g/gal for diesel. These can be found here:
Emission Facts: Average Carbon Dioxide Emissions Resulting from Gasoline and Diesel Fuel | US EPA
Biodiesel helps somewhat, but not nearly as much as people seem to think. It seems like every day I hear some yahoo claiming his H1 running biodiesel has no emissions. According to this data:
http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/f.../emissions.pdf
It reduces most pollutants by about a factor of 2 (not counting NOx which gets slightly worse). Given that many of the diesels above are often worse by a factor of 10-20, that doesn't really even put a dent in the problem. There is also not much basis for the carbon nuetral claims. That _may_ be true if you make your own bd from waste veggie oil using no energy. Sadly we don't eat nearly enough french fries to run all our cars this way. Large scale vegatable oil production will probably require sources like the plam plantations of SE asia, which are an environmental disaster in the making. If its 3X cheaper than American corn or soy bean oil, what do you want to bet thats what people will go with?
Palm oil: the biofuel of the future driving an ecological disaster now | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
I would really like to be wrong about this. I really want to convert my Land Rover to Diesel and run it on bio. Can't quite seem to rationalize it based on these numbers though.