Diesel vs. Hybrid emmissions compared

[hevster1]

Miscrms, A diesel is a better choice for 95% because of several factors.
1. Towing ability. Not recommended with a hybrid. Diesels tow quite well.
2. Real world performance and economy. A hybrid when pushed has its fuel mileage go down the toilet and its emissions go up simply because the engine is running at high rpm all the time. Considering I get passed by them all the time when I am doing 75 there are many drivers out there who could care less. When I worked on them at the dealership I saw several cases where the car only did about 30-35mpg due to driving habits. The majority averaged 42-45 which is only slightly better than my 98 NB.
3. Repairability/simplicity. Contrary to popular belief, while Toyota products are reliable they do occasionally have problems. You pretty much have to take a Prius to the dealership to get it repaired. The data list alone is quite intimidating. The tech info line has deteriorated so much over the years I stopped calling it as it was a waste of time. I always was amazed at the "let us know when you find the problem line". The people manning tech line were database checkers.
4. Eventual repair cost. Granted most people only hold onto cars for a few years. Eventually once the Prius gets past the 100k mark and the warranty expires repair costs have the potential to eat into the mileage. The same can be said about my NB. However in comparison to a Japanese diesel who knows.
5. Manual transmission availability. Personal preference here but I don't like CVT's. Ok I concede that most Americans like automatics. It is nice to have a choice though.
6. Price. I have never seen a new gen 2 prius go for less than 30-35k and that was in 05. Like it or not that is far more than a diesel pd went for.
7. Driveability. I never liked them. Neither did about 95% of the people who test drove them. They bought them first because it made them feel good inside and now because of fuel costs. They would much rather drive a conventional car which gets great mileage.
8. Hybrids in other vehicles such as a Highlander do not get the same potential mileage as a diesel. Why do you think Honda dropped the Accord Hybrid for a diesel?
9.Longevity. A Prius engine, is set up to charge the batteries and provide boost. It can and will run at high RPM at any given point in time. Granted it is a Toyota product and is an Atkinson cycle engine. However it is quite similar to the Echo/Tercel/Yaris engine. Even with proper maintenance many of these were worn out at 100-150k. Time will tell if the Prius engines will need overhauls at that mileage or even at 200k. The diesels have a big advantage here.
10. Fuel flexibility. With relatively minor changes a diesel can run on bio fuels. Though I don't recommend it some run on WVO as you know. A Prius runs on regular gas. E-85 can freak the system out.
11. More electronic parts to fail. Again, Toyota does have a great record here but they have had ecm issues including full failures which, if out of warranty can cost the customer thousands.

I am sure that there are more reasons that others can think of.

You can argue all you want about climate change and emissions. Don't believe everything you hear or read. Al Gore is a politician remember.

Bunnies and trees do not come out of ANY tailpipe period.

Yes you can set a Prius into diagnostic mode which runs the engine constantly. It is still not meant for a dyno test.

I am now and always will be a Toyota man. I will not buy a hybrid.

 

[miscrms]

Rob,

The reason I’m concerned about anthropogenic VOC emissions is that they potentially have a profound impact on air quality. Consider this scenario:


Based on EPA’s AP-42 (http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch07/final/c07s01.pdf), diesel fuel is 0.3667% as volatile as gasoline on a mass-equivalent basis (i.e., for every pound of diesel fuel that evaporates, 272.7 pounds of gasoline would evaporate under the same conditions (~STP)). Also based on AP-42 (http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch05/final/c05s02.pdf), approximately 9.6 pounds of VOCs are emitted per 1000 gallons from loading of gasoline into a tanker at a pipeline terminal, from the transportation of that tanker load of gasoline to a gas station, and from the unloading of that tanker at the gas station, plus the evaporative emissions from the storage of that gasoline and spillage at the gas station. In addition, according to the 2002 NEI (available at http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/net/2002inventory.html), approximately 156,000 tons/year of VOCs come from bulk storage of gasoline at refineries or pipeline terminals.

According to EIA, the U.S. uses 385 million gallons of gasoline every day (http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/sources/non-renewable/gasoline.html) (385,000,000 X 365 = 140.5 billion gallon/year). 140,500,000,000 gallons X 9.6 pounds/1000 gal = 1,348,800,000 pounds VOC emissions X 1 ton/2000 pounds = 674,400 tons + 156,000 tons = 830,400 tons VOC emissions/year.

830,400 TONS/year of VOCs are released as evaporative emissions in the U.S. specifically from the storage and distribution of gasoline – notice this is over and above the evaporative emissions from the vehicles themselves, so even gasoline vehicles certified as “PZEV” are indirectly responsible for these evaporative VOC emissions. Calculations based on AP-42 data assume best available control technology for VOC emissions (Stage 1 vapor recovery, etc.).

A hypothetical U.S. light-duty fleet consisting of 100% “AT-PZEV” Prius cars would substantially lower this evaporative-emission-of-gasoline inventory because of their vastly superior fuel mileage:
Extrapolating EPA light-duty VMT (vehicle miles traveled) from 2002 (ftp://ftp.epa.gov/EmisInventory/2002finalnei/documentation/mobile/2002nei_mobile_onroadandnonroad.pdf - Table 2.3) yields about 1,649,057,000,000 miles/year in 2008 @ 2% growth rate/year. 1,649,057,000,000 LDVMT/48 mpg (“real world” mpg of Prius - http://www.greenhybrid.com/, http://www.fueleconomy.gov/) = 34,355,354,166 gallons/year/140,500,000,000 gallons/year current usage = ~0.245 = ~25%

But, that means that about 200,000 tons of evaporative gasoline emissions would still be produced per year in the U.S from this source category. Using a conservative SOA yield of 4% (for a ROG like gasoline vapor), ~8,000 tons/year of SOA would potentially be produced indirectly (secondary PM) by the all-Prius fleet (SOA yield from http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/epacenter/pdfs/project_5.pdf). Most of that SOA PM is in the nucleation and/or accumulation mode (http://www.newmediastudio.org/DataDi...nter/index.htm).

Several references suggests only 0.3 mg/km (=~0.5 mg/mile) PM from light-duty diesel cars with DPF (http://www.greendieseltechnology.com/News.asp?ID=418&link=, http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYH/is_5_7/ai_99232199, http://www.vagverket.se/filer/publikationer/2002_62.pdf). This is generally supported by EPA (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/technology/deerpresentation.pdf, slide 11 – 55%/45% city/highway = 0.7 mg/mile).

Therefore, assuming a U.S. light-duty fleet consisting of 100% 2008 Jetta TDI:
1,649,057,000,000 miles (VMT) X 0.0005 g/mile (0.5 mg/mile) X 1 pound/453.6 grams X 1 ton/2000 pounds = 909 tons/year direct PM emissions. Assuming the same mileage for the Jetta TDI as the Prius (48 mpg), 200,000 tons X 0.0048 (0.48% evaporative VOC emissions from diesel fuel compared to gasoline per AP-42) = 966 Tons VOCs = 97 tons (indirect from VOC @ 10% SOA yield) = 1006 tons/year, i.e., less than 15% compared to the all-Prius fleet of 8,000 tons/year of indirect (secondary) PM emissions. And that’s assuming ZERO direct (primary) PM emissions from the Prius fleet, which is a big stretch based on slide 7 in http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/nfti/pdfs/workshop_obj_lawson.pdf. The 2008 Jetta TDI would have to have average PM emissions of over 4 mg/mile just to equal the indirect (secondary) PM emissions from the all-Prius fleet.

SOA can account for up to 90% of organic aerosol mass in urban areas (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/epacenter/pdfs/project_5.pdf), organic aerosols typically makes up the largest mass fraction of PM2.5 (Figure 2-4, http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad/420d07001chp2.pdf, http://www.ncsu.edu/sos/v.html), and GASOLINE exhaust and GASOLINE vapor account for ~80 percent of ambient NMHC in on-road samples and at regional air monitoring locations in SoCAB (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2002/session5/2002_deer_fujita.pdf, Steven G. Brown, Anna Frankel and Hilary R. Hafner; “Source apportionment of VOCs in the Los Angeles area using positive matrix factorization”. Atmospheric Environment, Volume 41, Issue 2, January 2007, Pages 227-237). See also http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/62/1/6. Thus it would seem prudent to focus more on this source of PM.


NOx can produce PM2.5 (PM nitrate). However, I didn’t calculate it for several reasons:

Production of PM nitrate has been shown to be highly non-linear with respect to ambient NOx concentrations.

PM nitrate is generally relatively course compared to other secondary PM.

PM nitrate (typically existing as ammonium nitrate in the ambient environment) is inorganic and generally highly soluble in water, meaning PM nitrate would be easily diluted and cleared from the respiratory system compared to relatively insoluble organic PM (e.g., SOA, EC).

To be fair, exhaust NMHC would also have to be included (which we don't know yet for the T2B5 Jetta), but this is just an example of how indirect emissions (resulting in secondary pollutants) can potentially affect air quality (and more than just groud-level ozone), at least in some locations.

Ok, I'm going to take a wag at this, but I freely admit much of it is still over my head. Theres a whole lot of data to look at here.

First, I am very concerned about this problem. I think a lot of people have no idea how much of this crap is going in the air. Obviously thats pretty rediculous. The only good thing I would say about it, is that in general these sort of centralized systematic problems are easier to deal with than distributed ones like vehicle emissions. Thats not to downplay the seriousness of it, but to say I have hope that the situation can be improved. Since much of this data is from 1995-2002 I hope that some progress has been made, but have no data to show whether it has. This is clearly an inherant disadvantage to gasoline, though not necessarily an insurmountable one.

The only real trouble I have with this analysis is the comparison of the Prius fleet against a vehicle that does not yet exist, and so for which no hard numbers exist. I think it would make more sense to use the numbers for existing diesels, with the caveot that better ones are believed to be coming. This would be more consistent with using the somewhat outdated evaporative VOC emissions data with a similar caveot that it also can probably be improved over time. I also have some question over how localized this effect is. If most of it tends to occur in industrial areas (as most seems to be in the storage, loading and transportation areas), that would differ somewhat from the concentration of vehicle emissions in urban areas.

So with that being said, lets just go ahead and assume your numbers are right. It would seem a fair way to compare would be to take the above numbers, and divide them out into a g/mi value and add that to the vehicles emissions test data also in g/mi.

2006 Jetta TDI:
CO2: 305.58
CO: 0.11
NOx: 0.31
HCNM: 0.438 (calc from "HC-NM+NOx" - NOx)
PM: 0.046

2006 Toyota Prius + Evp VOCs
CO2: 191.04
CO: 0.1
NOx: 0.01
HCNM: 0.12 (0.02 + 0.1 from evap)
PM: 0.0005 (0 + soa from evap)

To use the state of the art production cars for both hybrid and diesel technologies, we could also compare the GS450h or Camry Hybrid and the E320 Bluetec.

2008 Mercedes E320 Bluetec (ULSD)
CO2: 387.85
CO: 2.88
NOx: 0.165
HCNM: 0.226
PM: 0.002

2008 Toyota GS450h
CO2: 382.09
CO: 0.01
NOx: 0.01
HCNM: 0.22 (0.02+ 0.2 evap scaled for mpg)
PM: 0.001 (0 + 0.001 scaled soa from evap)

2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid
CO2: 258.47
CO: 0
NOx: 0.01
HCNM: 0.135 (0 + 0.135 evap scaled for mpg)
PM: 0.000675 (0 + 0.000675 scaled soa from evap)

This data would probably make some pretty good inroads towards erasing the emissions gap between these existing diesels and their gasoline counterparts. It still seems to me that existing hybrids are quite a bit cleaner. I guess I will be waiting along with many of you to see what the new VW tdis can do. Of course, in the mean time I also hope gasoline manufacturers are continuing to address the evapoartive emissions problem either voluntarily, or with government requirements. Additionaly in the next year or two hybrids will be making their next leap forward as commercial plugin hybrids hit the market. This should be reducing gasoline consumption by up to half again. Emissions impact will of course be more complicated, though general agreement seems to be that it will be lower.

On the question of NOx, I still have more reading to do. It certainly does appear that there cases where short term increases of NOx can reduce smog. I'm not entirely convinced that means we should just make more NOx, rather than trying to reduce all of these components together.

Rob

 

[miscrms]

miscrms; It's not that we think hybrids are a bad idea but it's because of the state of modern diesel's have made the gas engine's that they use obsolete in all area's except for there slow to warm up (which is a bye product of there efficiency) and the added cost of a diesel to manufacture. Although I still am not real crazy about the cost of replacing the battery pack on a hybrid when it die's which is why I chose a diesel over a hybrid. Dan

For what its worth, I think its pretty well established that the battery issue has been way overblown. The battery is warrantied to 100,000 miles (150k miles in CA). There have been a few instances of failures both in and outside of warranty. A number of those have been the result of abuse, such as continuing to drive for extended periods after running out of gas. Fleet vehicles are now getting up into the 300,000+ mile territory on their original batteries. Should one fail, they are pretty easy to change and available on the used market for ~$500-1000. All in all, the Priuses are turning out to be one of the chepaest vehicles to operate and maintain. I hate to bring it up, but Consumer Reports rates the Prius reliability as "much better than average", while the Jetta is rated "much worse than average." Maintenance costs seem like a strange reason to favor the VW. Of course this was less certain a few years back.

Rob

 

[Dan_Ruddock]

Used battery, you can't be serious that the last thing I would want to buy used unless it came with one hell of a warranty. My jetta has a 125k on it and should give me a lot more service life to come without the need of a $3000 battery pack. My car saves me real money not promised marketing BS. I paid 11k for it with 50k on the odo I have put 75k on it in three years and 50k of that it have run my home brew biodiesel that costs me a buck per gallon to make for huge saving in fuel costs. I do my own service work on it (vw dealers are the problem with the bad service cost record). I hope to put 300k on the car so a 150k battery warranty does not cut it for me. I would not ever consider any hybrid gas or diesel unless the battery comes with as long as you own the car warranty. The only non regular maintenance problems I have had is a maf sensor that was replaced under warranty and the quantity adjuster seals started leaking at a cost of $300 to repair. I know a guy who had a Honda insight with all kinds of $$$ hybrid problems after a 100k on the odo. He dumped it and got a tdi. He is much happier now. Until the costs of owning a hybrid for the long term come down I will call them feel good cars. Dan

 

[miscrms]

Judging by the number of Priuses I get stuck behind going 60 in the fast lane on 95, I somehow doubt they're paying more attention to the road than anyone else. Perhaps the design "exudes" too much calmness and is lulling you to sleep on the road. I doubt I'm alone on this one.

When you realize that driving 80mph generates 78% more drag resistance than driving 60mph, and that highway power requirements are almost entirely drag resistance limited, such that mpg scales almost directly, many people will chose not to drive at 80mph anymore. Granted they should not be doing so in the left lane, that is obnoxious.

And sorry, there is no aspect of the Prius that's quicker or faster than the Jetta on the highay or at a light. There are a lot of Prius snobs in my area of NJ who would actually yell at me at stop lights for buying a diesel before I even knew there was a hybrid/diesel head-to-head. I can't even tell you how many of them I smoked after they said they were saving the world and still had a quicker car than my diesel.

According to the data here:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Toyota--Prius-Drag-Racing.html
A stock GenII Prius does a 1/4 mile in 17.7s at 79mph. Edmunds did 17.72s @ 78.17mph.
By Car and Driver's reconning a 2004 Jetta TDI 5sp gets there in 18.1s at 74mph. Edmunds managed to get a 2005 there in 17.3s at 73.9mph. Of course, its all kind of irrelevant since driving either car this way will destroy your mpgs. If your going to do that, you might as well drive a car with some actual performance. C&Ds track day resulted in 17mpg on the Jetta TDI. I don't know that I have ever had occasion to put the Priuses pedal all the way down. Its too painfull to watch your av mpg plumit. My WRX was the opposite. The addrenaline rush combined with the lack of mpg feedback translated to a lot of time spent near WOT.

If what you said is true about the half shafts not being strong enough to handle the power of the motor Toyota chose to pair with them, then that says a whole lot about Toyota doesn't it?

I think it does. The car is optimised for efficiency at an acceptable performance level. As far as I know there aren't many small fwd cars whose axles (or transmissions for that matter) could handle 295 ftlb of torque btw. Why oversize them when it would be detrimental to efficiency?

My point about bringing up Phoenix is you're on here comparing extremely small differences in emissions between cars when you're living in one of the newest and most pollutive cities in the country (worst air quality!). It's due to cars, trucks, buses, BUILDINGS, water vapor from lawns that shouldn't exist. Those tiny differences don't mean anything compared to the tremendous difference in your air quality and your impact on your local environment vs mine. Try changing that first since that is a far bigger issue, don't you think? Then maybe you can get back on your soap box and nitpick over a per parts per million.

Sorry, but everything I have read places vehicle emissions at or near the top of the list of Phoenix's air quality problem. I fail to understand why i would ignore this one area, while also doing everything I can about the others. The article below is an example:

The "Brown Cloud", as it has come to be known, shrouds the Phoenix area in pollutants nearly year-round resulting in the American Lung Association giving Maricopa County its lowest grade for air quality in both ozone and particulates in 2005. According to the association's "State of the Air 2005" report, over 2.6 million, or 79%, of the county's residents are at high risk for respiratory complications due to air quality. Among those at risk are residents with asthma, bronchitis, cardiovascular disease, and diabetes.

For the most part, the Brown Cloud consists of tiny particles of carbon and nitrogen dioxide gas. These substances are deposited into the air mostly from burning fossil fuels. Cars, construction-related dust, power plants, gas powered lawn mowers, leaf blowers, and more contribute to the cloud daily.

http://phoenix.about.com/od/weather/a/browncloud.htm

[/quote]

No, I was not oversimplifying and touting the characteristics of a diesel vs a hybrid. Thousands of instances yielding statistics exist where diesels last for hundreds of thousands miles (look around this site for examples). Semi's go for millions of miles. There are very few gas engines that can compare with this "genetic" longevity. All ICE powered vehicles could benefit from an assist during acceleration from a stop or turning off when stopped, and I think diesels should do the same. The driving experience has to stay just as engaging though or the vehicle turns into an appliance...

Diesel engines can be very reliable. I'm not convinced VW's design is a stellar example of this though. There are also Saab and Volvo gasoline engines that have gone millions of miles (w/o rebuilds), so one could argue it has more to do with engineering than an inherant difference. Electric motors generally have a lifespan and reliability that would put any ICE to shame. Although the Prius still has an ICE, it runs at reduced duty cycle and under controlled conditions that should greatly prolong its life.

There were several miniature gas engines that supplied minimal amounts of power (50-80hp) in the 80's and early 90's that easily achieved over 40 and 50mpg on the highway. I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that the hybrid powertrain really contributes all that much to fuel savings on the highway vs the fact that you just have a very small and efficient gasoline engine and a slippery shaped car. Show us the incremental gain you get from using a hybrid powertrain on the highway.

Ok lets look at a few:

1985 Honda Civic HF
41mpg, 8.3 barrels petroleum per year, 4.5 tons CO2 per year, 2 seater

1985 Toyota Corolla 1.6l 5SP
29mpg, 11.8 barrels petroleum per year, 6.3 tons CO2 per year, compact

1985 VW Golf Diesel 5SP
35mpg, 11.2 barrels petroleum per year, 6.1 tons CO2 per year, compact

1990 Ford Festiva:
28mpg, 12.2 barrels petroleum per year, 6.6 tons CO2 per year, subcompact

1990 Geo Metro 3cyl 1.0l 5sp
40mpg, 8.6 barrels petroleum per year, 4.6 tons CO2 per year, subcompact

1990 Geo Metro 4cyl 1.3L auto
28mpg, 12.2 barrels petroleum per year, 6.6 tons CO2 per year, subcompact

Now lets compare that to a few modern cars:

2007 Honda Fit
31mpg, 11.0 barrels petroleum per year, 5.9 tons CO2 per year, compact

2007 Toyota Camry 4cyl Auto
24mpg, 14.3 barrels petroleum per year, 7.7 tons CO2 per year, midsize

2006 Jetta TDI 5sp
33mpg, 11.9 barrels petroleum per year, 6.9 tons CO2 per year, compact

2006 Honda Insight CVT
47mpg, 7.3 barrels petroleum per year, 3.9 tons CO2 per year, 2 seater

2006 Toyota Prius CVT
46mpg, 7.4 barrels petroleum per year, 4.0 tons CO2 per year, midsize

If Geo still existed, and made a 3cyl metro subcompact today that was small and light enough to still get that mileage how many do you think they would sell? Honda did make the modern equivilent of the HF, it was the Insight. The Insight was a very weak hybrid, mostly just a very efficient design with a 1.5L lean burn engine. How many did they sell? Enough that they canceled it 2 years ago. If a Prius can get signifigantly better mileage than any 80s-90s econobox, and better mileage than any modern compact except the 2 seat Insight (which only barely beats it), all while offering midsize interior room, an auto transmission, good crash protection, T2B2/SULEVII/PZEV emissions and acceptable performance, how is that not impressive?

To answer your question more directly, it makes a huge difference on the highway. Mostly because the american consumer would not otherwise accept a midsize car with a 76hp 1.5L atkinson cycle engine. The Prius gives you the interior room of a Camry, with the efficiency of an Insight. As the 4cyl Camry is rated at 30mpg highway, and the Prius 45mpg highway I would put the efficiency improvement due to the hybrid technology at ~50% on the highway.

Rob

 

[miscrms]

Ban all the gas hogs and everybody drive fuel sipping diesels? What would the politicians do without all the fuel tax revenues? Dan

Like I said, we're all more alike than we are different. Like it or not

Rob

 

[miscrms]

On plug in hybrids all that will do is move the pollution from the tail pipe to a smoke stack , no real gain anytime soon .

Sadly even coal plants are generally more efficient, and have less pollution output per btu than highway ICEs (of any flavor). This becomes increasingly true as you move toward modern combined cycle plants, and then hydro, wind, solar, etc.

http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html#2

Rob

 

[rotarykid]

In other parts of the world 1.0-1.6 L 5 spd manual cars are sold but not here . A real comparison much include these cars .

Just did a little search and had no trouble finding plenty of 1.3-1.8 L models . http://www.toyota.co.nz/NewVehicles/ for instance . There are Daihatsu 1.0 L & Yaris 1.3 & 1.5 L models , Corolla 1.5 & 1.8 L models , Avensis 2.0 L and 2.4 L models of various names . This is just one manufacturer . A note they do sell the Prius & a diesel Corolla .

If you want more go to a UK car site , pick the make . Just because we don't have them doesn't mean they don't exist .

 

[nicklockard]

(snipped)...hybrids will be making their next leap forward as commercial plugin hybrids hit the market. This should be reducing gasoline consumption by up to half again...(snipped)Rob

I highly doubt that PHEV's will have half the gasoline consumption in the real world.

In fact I'll wager you a tank of fuel that no conventional, mass market vehicle (e.g. sedan having 4 wheels i.e. Prius) produced before 2011 will achieve half the L/100km consumption of it's 2008 model predecessor in 50/50 city/highway *real world* driving. Since the price of fuel could be a small fortune in 2011, could we limit it to $50; what say you?

Oh, not to mention, compared on a total fuel cost per mile basis (including electricity and liquid hydrocarbons,) I think the 2011 model year PHEV's will struggle to make 30% improvements on their 2008 model year predecessors.

If your optimistic outlook bears out, I'll be amazed and impressed...and $50 poorer.

*real world* means: "NOT epa crap unrealistic numbers, but actual number averages from all North American climates reported by actual owners.

 

[canolajetta]

The basic reasons I see for supporting either hybrids or diesels is to encourage the establishment of a base for lowering US gasoline consumption and CO2 production. We drive a lot of cars. If half were hybrid and/or diesel, instead of the fringe groups we are, I think there would be supply issues -either battery or diesel. So there is no "one" answer in any case.

Hybrids dont irritate me nearly as much as the ethanol lobby, which keeps sucking up funds which IMHO should be spent on researching biodiesel, especially from algae.

I'm annoyed with the new diesels because I think they are making running biodiesel more difficult, and they should be encouraging BD use, at least to B20.

I also think that a personal vehicle choice, if you're including environmental impact in your list, will differ depending on your personality and driving habits. A tdi driver has to be able to tolerate people thinking they drive a dirty car (if they even notice it's a diesel), b/c that's what people tend to think. A prius driver has to tolerate being thought of as an HOV hogging yuppie, because that's what people tend to think.

Those of us here who brew our own fuel from waste fryer oil, I think, can make a good case for being cleaner than most. No, it won't work for everyone, I don't think anything will, but the US still throws out millions of gallons of veggie oil each year. If the OP is an engineer, he can probably process WVO. If most of your driving is stop-and-go urban, a prius may be the better choice. If you are spending a lot of time at 55mph, I think the tdi will kick the crap out of prius on mpg. There is preliminary research suggestingthat biodiesel particulates are not carcinogenic (CA study, w/ rats as subjects, compared to regular diesel). The trade-off is, indeed, NOx. In our current universe, I personally don't believe NOx emissions are as serious a problem as other types of emissions, largely because diesels do not comprise a significant portion of the us auto market. If that were to change, then that could impact my choice to drive a tdi.

My big problem with the future of hybrids is efficiency -as movement towards "plug-in" cars becomes the new hybrid, that means that our fuel will be mostly coal, which isn't exactly clean, and that it will lose 2/3 of its power just getting into the car.

I agree w/ the battery argument being a little off base, as long as toyota is disposing of them appropriately. The problem is that as hybrids multiply exponentially, the possibility that their batteries will be inproperly disposed of increases, thus increasing the risk that the environment could be impacted. Americans aren't famous for their follow-through when throwing stuff away.

 

[GoFaster]

Just wait until VW does hybrid AND diesel - and hopefully does it with a mechanical arrangement that keeps the extra cost under control.

They've got a prototype now, and that replaces an earlier prototype they did a couple years ago.

 

[miscrms]

Miscrms, A diesel is a better choice for 95% because of several factors.
1. Towing ability. Not recommended with a hybrid. Diesels tow quite well.

Prius owners have towed up to ~1000lbs without issue but you are right, its is not recommended by Toyota. From your FAQ I see the same seems to be true of VW and the Jetta TDI, with owners having tested the waters up to about 1500lbs. For compact hybrid SUVs the towing ratings are in the 1500-3500 lb range. Diesel SUVs may be higher than that, but then again what percentage of the driving population needs more than that on a regular basis? Of course the Yukon Hybrid (ack, it hurts just to say the name) can tow 6200lbs, but I'm not sure 21/22mpg compares with a full size diesel SUV.

2. Real world performance and economy. A hybrid when pushed has its fuel mileage go down the toilet and its emissions go up simply because the engine is running at high rpm all the time. Considering I get passed by them all the time when I am doing 75 there are many drivers out there who could care less. When I worked on them at the dealership I saw several cases where the car only did about 30-35mpg due to driving habits. The majority averaged 42-45 which is only slightly better than my 98 NB.

I have also read of plenty of tdi drivers who only get low 30s due to their driving environment/style. Real World average based on 1499 vehicles is 47.5mpg for the Prius according to:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/toyota-priushsd.html
I would be interested to see a similar database of TDIs, as individual results are hard to compare. For what its worth I'm at 50.7mpg over 8000 miles in an urban setting, with a short mixed freeway/surface street commute. Short commutes are not really ideal for hybrids due to ICE warmup time. On long freeway trips I get 48-55mpg at 75mph-60mph. I don't use any hypermiling techniques, just common sense and feedback from the energy display to drive smoothly/efficiently.
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/car/6036.html

3. Repairability/simplicity. Contrary to popular belief, while Toyota products are reliable they do occasionally have problems. You pretty much have to take a Prius to the dealership to get it repaired. The data list alone is quite intimidating. The tech info line has deteriorated so much over the years I stopped calling it as it was a waste of time. I always was amazed at the "let us know when you find the problem line". The people manning tech line were database checkers.
4. Eventual repair cost. Granted most people only hold onto cars for a few years. Eventually once the Prius gets past the 100k mark and the warranty expires repair costs have the potential to eat into the mileage. The same can be said about my NB. However in comparison to a Japanese diesel who knows.

If you believe Consumer Reports it pretty hard to make a TDI over Prius call on the basis of reliability. Based on the two test vehicles here:
http://avt.inl.gov/hev.shtml
the DOE found the total real world operating costs over 120k and 140k to be 19-20 cents per mile (including fuel, maintenance, repairs, depreciation, etc ) Edmunds puts the estimated 5 year/ 75k miles cost of ownership for a used 06 Prius at 44c/mile and a used '06 TDI Jetta 53c per mile respctively. As you're probably aware the Prius recommended maintenance is only oil/filter every 5k, spark plugs at 120k so their number even seem a bit high to me. I will however agree that there are some worrying trends in Toyotas reliability data.

5. Manual transmission availability. Personal preference here but I don't like CVT's. Ok I concede that most Americans like automatics. It is nice to have a choice though.

I agree, I prefer stick too. If it actually makes mpg/emissions better though (which I believe the Prius CVT/PSD does), I'm willing to give it up.

6. Price. I have never seen a new gen 2 prius go for less than 30-35k and that was in 05. Like it or not that is far more than a diesel pd went for.

I agree. One has to suspect that Toyota has intentionaly throttled production to keep prices high. Resale values are rediculously high too. I ended up buying an '05 with 18k miles for $15k as a salvage rebuild as it was the only way to find one for a reasonable price. The rebuilder specializes in Priuses, and I went out and visited his shop to see what he does so I was ok with going this route. I also am planning on a cal-cars phev conversion so I would have voided the warrenty anyway. This is slowly becoming less true, as most folks are now getting them around invoice, starting around $21-$22k. Edmunds "True Market Value" for a new 2008 base model is $21,267.

7. Driveability. I never liked them. Neither did about 95% of the people who test drove them. They bought them first because it made them feel good inside and now because of fuel costs. They would much rather drive a conventional car which gets great mileage.

I would agree that it takes some getting used to. Now I prefer it to any of my other current vehicles, LR Discovery, Saab turbo convertible 5sp, Subaru WRX wagon 5sp.

8. Hybrids in other vehicles such as a Highlander do not get the same potential mileage as a diesel. Why do you think Honda dropped the Accord Hybrid for a diesel?

Hmmm, I'm not sure about that one. The highlander and escape seem to do better than the Jeep CRDs out now/recently. I guess we'll have to see how other entries compare. The accord actually did very well for what it was. A 3600lb midsize sedan that goes 0-60 in 6.7s and does the 1/4 in 15.2 @ 93mph (C&D) and yet still gets 27mpg combined, 32mpg highway is pretty impressive. Problem was, people that want to go that fast didn't want to pay extra for the fuel efficiency.

9.Longevity. A Prius engine, is set up to charge the batteries and provide boost. It can and will run at high RPM at any given point in time. Granted it is a Toyota product and is an Atkinson cycle engine. However it is quite similar to the Echo/Tercel/Yaris engine. Even with proper maintenance many of these were worn out at 100-150k. Time will tell if the Prius engines will need overhauls at that mileage or even at 200k. The diesels have a big advantage here.

Time will tell. My feeling is that since the engine runs a lower duty cycle, and is completely controlled by the computer, it should go a very long time. The Gen II taxis are getting up over 300k so far with no problems. There are GenI's that have one farther than that. For what its worth mine almost never comes out of the 1200-2000 rpm band. Part of that is intentional though, as I do make some effort to keep it in that band to improve efficiency.

10. Fuel flexibility. With relatively minor changes a diesel can run on bio fuels. Though I don't recommend it some run on WVO as you know. A Prius runs on regular gas. E-85 can freak the system out.

True, and to me this is the biggest advantage to the tdi. I think WVO and BD100 are fantastic on the current scale. I have big worries about large scale biofuel production though. While not quite the same, I am planning to do the cal-cars conversion to phev. When purchasing green energy I will be able to do surface streets up to 12-15 miles (my commute is 7) with near zero emissions at a cost of ~1.3c/mi. Highway will be 80-100mpg for ~30 miles (plus ~0.7c/mi green electricity). Will help alot with the commute, but of course not long trips.

11. More electronic parts to fail. Again, Toyota does have a great record here but they have had ecm issues including full failures which, if out of warranty can cost the customer thousands.

Could be. Electrical parts tend to have high infant mortality rates, then last a really long time. Seems like mechanical parts tend to run a certain amount of time and then wear out. I like the fact that while it is conceptualy complex, the Prius is fairly mechanically simple. The PSD/transaxle has way less moving parts than a typical automatic transmission, which will also eventually fail potentially costing the customer thousands. Of course, I would buy a used transmission, just as I would buy a used hybrid battery or inverter should one fail.

I am sure that there are more reasons that others can think of.

You can argue all you want about climate change and emissions. Don't believe everything you hear or read. Al Gore is a politician remember.

Bunnies and trees do not come out of ANY tailpipe period.

Very true. As an engineer married to a scientist, I've made up my own mind about the realities of pollution and climate change. While trees and bunnies would be nice, I'll generally settle for as little crap as possible.

Yes you can set a Prius into diagnostic mode which runs the engine constantly. It is still not meant for a dyno test.

This was not why the mode was created, it was created for troubleshooting problems. However, I believe this is the solution Toyota provided to the state of GA when they decided to fail all Priuses when the ICE wouldn't stay on continuously during the emissions dyno test.

I am now and always will be a Toyota man. I will not buy a hybrid.

pity.

Rob

 

[miscrms]

In other parts of the world 1.0-1.6 L 5 spd manual cars are sold but not here . A real comparison much include these cars .

Just did a little search and had no trouble finding plenty of 1.3-1.8 L models . http://www.toyota.co.nz/NewVehicles/ for instance . There are Daihatsu 1.0 L & Yaris 1.3 & 1.5 L models , Corolla 1.5 & 1.8 L models , Avensis 2.0 L and 2.4 L models of various names . This is just one manufacturer . A note they do sell the Prius & a diesel Corolla .

If you want more go to a UK car site , pick the make . Just because we don't have them doesn't mean they don't exist .

I don't doubt it. And with hybridization, you culd make them 40-50% more efficient. Just because they exist, doesn't mean you could sell them here. I think that is one of the things that makes the prius a good fit for the NA market.

Rob

 

[nicklockard]

(snipped)...our fuel will be mostly coal, which isn't exactly clean, and that it will lose 2/3 of its power just getting into the car.

Amen. This is a very valid point. Coal consumption is expected to skyrocket with the increasing prices of natural gas an petroleum distillates. And, our aging electric infrastructure (remember when the power went out?) can hardly handle huge new load demands with its poor transmission efficiency. The combined cycle power plants are quite efficient, but the power transmission system is very inefficient.

Power plant-->distribution system-->home-->PHEV battery-->PHEV motor

88%-->50%-->98%-->55%-->55% = .88*.50*.98*.55*.55 = 13% efficiency.

Most people are not aware of this, but coal burning power plants are responsible for emitting more tons of uranium and mercury into atmosphere than any other single source type. We are starting to track mercury levels of Pacific ocean-caught fish increase due to China's massive increase of coal consumption over the last 15 years.

 

[miscrms]

Used battery, you can't be serious that the last thing I would want to buy used unless it came with one hell of a warranty. My jetta has a 125k on it and should give me a lot more service life to come without the need of a $3000 battery pack. My car saves me real money not promised marketing BS. I paid 11k for it with 50k on the odo I have put 75k on it in three years and 50k of that it have run my home brew biodiesel that costs me a buck per gallon to make for huge saving in fuel costs. I do my own service work on it (vw dealers are the problem with the bad service cost record). I hope to put 300k on the car so a 150k battery warranty does not cut it for me. I would not ever consider any hybrid gas or diesel unless the battery comes with as long as you own the car warranty. The only non regular maintenance problems I have had is a maf sensor that was replaced under warranty and the quantity adjuster seals started leaking at a cost of $300 to repair. I know a guy who had a Honda insight with all kinds of $$$ hybrid problems after a 100k on the odo. He dumped it and got a tdi. He is much happier now. Until the costs of owning a hybrid for the long term come down I will call them feel good cars. Dan

I don't see why not. Typical service life of a Prius battery is unknown. Some have failed in the 100-150k range. Many are going strong at 150k, 200k, and even 300k. If I can buy a battery with 30-50k miles on it from a junk yard for $500 why wouldn't I do that? Its about as difficult to change as a tire. 4 bolts, pull the saftey key, pull the plug, swap and reverse. If you insist on new parts installed by a dealer, any older car will get expensive.

Rob

 

[miscrms]

Just wait until VW does hybrid AND diesel - and hopefully does it with a mechanical arrangement that keeps the extra cost under control.

They've got a prototype now, and that replaces an earlier prototype they did a couple years ago.

Honestly, I think this could be a good thing. Particularly with a Li-ion plug in. All electric for cruising around town, biodiesel for long highway driving. It gets the diesel emissions mostly out of urban areas, greatly reduces the amount of biodiesel to the point where you might be able to make enough of it to meet demand, and lets the diesel engine run primarily where it is really most efficient. In this scenario, I would probably prefer this over gas engine w/ ethanol.

Rob

 

[wxman]

On the question of NOx, I still have more reading to do. It certainly does appear that there cases where short term increases of NOx can reduce smog. I'm not entirely convinced that means we should just make more NOx, rather than trying to reduce all of these components together.

I'm not really suggesting INCREASING NOx emissions, just not reducing them as much as the Tier 2/LEV II regs mandate. NOx eventually oxidizes to NO2, nitrogen dioxide, which is a NAAQS in and of itself. By the way, Phoenix has been shown to be VOC-limited (Blanchard, C.L., Tanenbaum, S., Lawson, D.R., "Differences Between Weekday and Weekend Air Pollutant Levels in Atlanta, Baltimore, Chicago, Dallas-Fort Worth, Denver, Houston, New York, Phoenix, Washington DC, and Surrounding Areas"), so decreasing NOx relatively more than HC/VOC will likely result in higher ground-level ozone there.

You have a point about the T2B5 Jetta TDI not being in production yet. That was just an example to illustrate the SOA potential of VOC emissions. As I mentioned in the example, all calculations for gasoline VOC emissions were made assuming the BEST in current evaporative emissions control. Without that, the emissions would be nearly an order-of-magnitude worse. I have no idea how much better those secondary VOC emissions can be controlled (engineers?), but I'm not optimistic since EPA recently proposed a rule to reduce those emissions by a whopping...9% (Federal Register, Nov. 9, 2006, page 66077).

One more point about NOx emissions just to put into some perspective. I've read on some "green car" blogs that diesels can "only" attain the "dirtier" Bin 5 NOx limits, while many gassers can now achieve Bin 2/SULEV. However, if you do a calculation of what this reduction actually represents (based on 2006 EPA National Emissions Inventory – available at http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/trends/ ...

NOx Reduction from Bin 5 (LEV II) to Bin 2 (SULEV II)​

​

0.06 g/mile (average of 0.05 g/mi @ 50K, 0.07 g/mi @120k) vs. 0.02 g/mile
@ 2008 LDV VMT (1,649,057,000,000 miles/year):

LDV NOx @ 2006 (extrapolated from 2002 ratio) = 3,583,000/21,102,000 = 0.17 = 17%; 0.17 X 18,226,000 = 3,094,671 tons NOx from LVD @ 2006

18,226,000 – 3,094,671 = 15,131,329 tons NOx from non-LDV

LDV NOx @ Bin 5 = 1,649,057,000,000 LDV miles/year X 0.06 g/mi = 989,434,200,000 g/year ÷ 453.6 g/lb ÷ 2000 lb/ton = 109,065 tons/year

LDV NOx @ Bin 2 = 1,649,057,000,000 LDV miles/year X 0.02 g/mi = 329,811,400,000 g/year ÷ 453.6 g/lb ÷ 2000 lb/ton = 36,355 tons/year

(36,355 + 15,131,329)/(109,065 + 15,131,329) = 0.48% reduction


Even a reduction to Bin 1/ZEV doesn’t make a very big difference in the overall scheme of things…

NOx Reduction from Bin 5 (LEV II) to Bin 1 (ZEV II)​

0.06 g/mile (average of 0.05 g/mi @ 50K, 0.07 g/mi @120k) vs. 0 g/mile
@ 2008 VMT:

109,065 tons (@ Bin 5 @ 2006)

15,131,329/(109,065 + 15,131,329) = 0.72% reduction


We're approaching diminishing returns with respect to futher lowering NOx emissions.

Again, I have nothing against hybrids, and hopefully cost for diesel-electric hybrids will be managed soon.

 

[rotarykid]

I don't doubt it. And with hybridization, you could make them 40-50% more efficient. Just because they exist, doesn't mean you could sell them here. I think that is one of the things that makes the Prius a good fit for the NA market.

Rob

First 40-50 % more efficient than these models currently are that is complete crap not backed up by any data . In fact there is not one shred of fact that backs up your statement .

In fact the extra added weight of the current hybrid crap to one of these models would more than likely hurt overall mpgs not help , not to mention double the upfront production costs . No gain I see there .

A 1.0-1.5 L drive train with a manual trans is every bit as efficient as the extremely expensive to build over weight Prius in overall driving . The Prius is sold here over these other models one reason it has an automatic trans & a fast takeoff and that sells in cheap oil USA and these don't .

If we really gave a crap about how much oil we used or how much pollution we spewed these models would sold here . They're far cheaper to build and have no trouble achieving the same or higher mpgs compared to the very expensive to build Prius .

IF fuel economy or pollution was the main reason for the Prius to be sold here our lots would be full of these small displacement cars .

Prius is a bad joke compared to cost of building it of what could be done with much less production cost with a small displacement 1.0 - 1.3 L Toyota or what ever with a manual trans . This setup can easily with proper driving technique more than outdo the Prius in mpgs delivered in all types of driving .

Not to mention the fact that a Prius can't even come close in mpgs delivered to a small displacement diesel in real world driving . It took a hybrid diesel ( the French car maker has produced as a demonstrator car ) to equal what the production Lupo 3L/100km TDI produced without all that hybrid crap over a decade ago .

 

[rotarykid]

5 Dr Hatch 1.0L Manual $15,990 RRP

5L/100km-47 mpg US

118 g/km CO2 emissions

Hybrid 5 Dr Hatch 1.5L CVT $43,650 RRP

4.4L/100km-53.3 mpg US

106 g/km CO2 emissions

3 Dr & 5Dr Hatch 1.3L Manual | From$19,550 RRP

6L/100km-39.2 mpg US

141 g/km CO2 emissions

GX 5 Dr Wagon 1.5L Manual $25,990 RRP

5.8L/100km-40.5 mpg US

135 g/km CO2 emissions

All NZ $ . Compare , almost $30k more one , more than $20k for the other car . Either car can do the same job on almost the same amount of oil/gas used for more than less than 1/2 the price . I really don't see the value there .

 

[thebigarniedog]

 

[Vipervnm]

When you realize that driving 80mph generates 78% more drag resistance than driving 60mph, and that highway power requirements are almost entirely drag resistance limited, such that mpg scales almost directly, many people will chose not to drive at 80mph anymore. Granted they should not be doing so in the left lane, that is obnoxious.

You can drive whatever speed you like...just do it in the right lane and don't be upset when people beep at you for going below the speed limit. Everyone knows that it's V^2 in the Cd equation. Aside from the point that I get my best mileage at about 64mph (~46mpg) which is a function not limited to just air resistance, but also gear ratios and the power curve. My engine is less efficient at 60mph and 1,800 rpm. However, I drive with the flow of traffic. I don't hold it up to eek out an extra 0.1 mpg.

I think it does. The car is optimised for efficiency at an acceptable performance level. As far as I know there aren't many small fwd cars whose axles (or transmissions for that matter) could handle 295 ftlb of torque btw. Why oversize them when it would be detrimental to efficiency?

You missed the point. Why put a motor in a car that the driveline can't tolerate? Downsize the motor if you're not even getting the benefit of the torque. I still have trouble believing Toyota would do that. And yes, there are several midsize cars (the Prius is a midsize as classified in the US) that are capable of tolerating that torque and more.

Sorry, but everything I have read places vehicle emissions at or near the top of the list of Phoenix's air quality problem. I fail to understand why i would ignore this one area, while also doing everything I can about the others. Cars, construction-related dust, power plants, gas powered lawn mowers, leaf blowers, and more contribute to the cloud daily.

You sent me a story that proved my point. Power plants, construction equipment, etc. Being that I'm a structural engineer who works primarily on Silver + rated LEED buildings I'm well aware of just how much waste is contributed to the system, not just the air, by buildings and what it takes to construct/operate/demolish them. Nearly half the solid waste in the nation is a product of the construction industry. 45% of the energy produced in the country is used by office buildings. Construction and building operation are very UNREGULATED sources of polution. You're on here squabbling about a few parts per million produced by the nation's most efficient vehicles. Please! Unless your house is shrouded in solar panels (photovoltaic and thermal) and you use grey water to reduce YOUR continued strain on the southwest desert I refuse to believe you're doing everything you can by simply buying a Prius. I'm so tired of that 'Prius' attitude.

Diesel engines can be very reliable. I'm not convinced VW's design is a stellar example of this though. Although the Prius still has an ICE, it runs at reduced duty cycle and under controlled conditions that should greatly prolong its life.

BTW, I drive a 2006, which is very different from an '04 or '05. While the TDI is one of many great designs, you're out of your element and sound foolish <see Europe for a list pages long of reliable diesels>. Please let us know when your Prius dies. I KNOW it will be before my Jetta.

Ok lets look at a few: (examples of compact cars)
2006 Jetta TDI 5sp
33mpg, 11.9 barrels petroleum per year, 6.9 tons CO2 per year, compact

I don't know where you got those numbers, but I'd be surprised if ANYONE driving a TDI Jetta averages 33mpg. If it's from the EPA then I think that shows how relevant those ratings are. Add at least 5 or 6mpg to that. I drive mostly city/suburbs and I avg just under 39mpg and I've had my car tuned to produce more power, aka I'm not easy on the pedal.

Also, you assume that diesels need to use petroleum. Ever heard of biodiesel? BIOGTL is just around the corner. One could argue pretty effectively that CO2 emitted from combusting an organically grown and refined fuel would effectively net ZERO CO2 emissions. Again, you're out of your element. Unless you want to knock off nearly 23% of your fuel economy I doubt you're using ethanol.

Mostly because the american consumer would not otherwise accept a midsize car with a 76hp 1.5L atkinson cycle engine. The Prius gives you the interior room of a Camry, with the efficiency of an Insight. As the 4cyl Camry is rated at 30mpg highway, and the Prius 45mpg highway I would put the efficiency improvement due to the hybrid technology at ~50% on the highway.

Man, you really shot yourself in the foot with that one.

 

[miscrms]

First 40-50 % more efficient than these models currently are that is complete crap not backed up by any data . In fact there is not one shred of fact that backs up your statement .

In fact the extra added weight of the current hybrid crap to one of these models would more than likely hurt overall mpgs not help , not to mention double the upfront production costs . No gain I see there .

A 1.0-1.5 L drive train with a manual trans is every bit as efficient as the extremely expensive to build over weight Prius in overall driving . The Prius is sold here over these other models one reason it has an automatic trans & a fast takeoff and that sells in cheap oil USA and these don't .

If we really gave a crap about how much oil we used or how much pollution we spewed these models would sold here . They're far cheaper to build and have no trouble achieving the same or higher mpgs compared to the very expensive to build Prius .

IF fuel economy or pollution was the main reason for the Prius to be sold here our lots would be full of these small displacement cars .

Prius is a bad joke compared to cost of building it of what could be done with much less production cost with a small displacement 1.0 - 1.3 L Toyota or what ever with a manual trans . This setup can easily with proper driving technique more than outdo the Prius in mpgs delivered in all types of driving .

Not to mention the fact that a Prius can't even come close in mpgs delivered to a small displacement diesel in real world driving . It took a hybrid diesel ( the French car maker has produced as a demonstrator car ) to equal what the production Lupo 3L/100km TDI produced without all that hybrid crap over a decade ago .

Intersting...

-A Prius is rediculously expenisve, and yet a used 2006 books for ~$2k less than a used 2006 Jetta TDI on Edmunds. They also put the True Cost to Own the Prius at $8k less than the Jetta TDI over 5 years. I would agree that Toyota sold the Priuses at a premium for quite a while (and still does in some places), but that has nothing to do with cost. It has to do with Toyota making a lot of money. Base Priuses in the US (which are pretty nicely equiped) are now selling for ~$21.2k. Before VW pulled back the '08 TDIs, I believe the Jetta was going to run $22k-$27k. Neither is exactly a budget car, but well below the US mean vehicle purchase price of $28k.

-Hybrid technology is inefficient because of the extra weight it adds, and yet a Prius weighs 300 lbs less than a smaller Jetta TDI. The Camry hybrid weighs 300 lbs more than the 4cyl Camry (which it out performs), and 100 lbs more than the V6 Camry. The Prius weighs 400 lbs less than the 4cyl Camry.

-The only small efficient vehicle to make a go at the US market so far is the SMART. When they got it to the point that it would meet US crash and emissions standards, it gets a whopping 36mpg! And thats with a 1.0L 3cyl. For the Prius to get 46mpg with twice the passenger and cargo capacity strikes me as damned impressive.

-The Camry Hybrid has performance approaching that of the V6, with 35% lower consumption overall. In city driving its 42% less, on the highway its still 18% better. This is in exactly the same car. The Camry Hybrid is actually doing better than EPA in the real world which would improve these further, with 512 vehicles averaging 36.5mpg here:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/toyota-camryhybrid.html
Taking the next step of also improving aerodynamics and weight, the Prius has performance and interior space approaching that of the 4cyl Camry. Overall its consumption is 46% lower, 56% better in city driving and still 31% better on the highway. Real World Prius numbers are also coming in above EPA, at 47.5mpg for 1499 vehicles averaged here:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/toyota-priushsd.html

-I agree, I would like to see a shift toward smaller more efficient cars in this country. Sadly, in the US the Prius is a much smaller car than most are used to. Just convincing american's to go this small is quite a feat when 50% of them are currently driving trucks, vans and SUVs. The last number I had seen for the average weight of a US light duty passenger vehicle was over 4100 lbs.

Rob

 

[hevster1]

Judging by the number of Priuses I get stuck behind going 60 in the fast lane on 95, I somehow doubt they're paying more attention to the road than anyone else. Perhaps the design "exudes" too much calmness and is lulling you to sleep on the road. I doubt I'm alone on this one.

And sorry, there is no aspect of the Prius that's quicker or faster than the Jetta on the highay or at a light. There are a lot of Prius snobs in my area of NJ who would actually yell at me at stop lights for buying a diesel before I even knew there was a hybrid/diesel head-to-head. I can't even tell you how many of them I smoked after they said they were saving the world and still had a quicker car than my diesel.

Show us the incremental gain you get from using a hybrid powertrain on the highway.

Usually they pass me on 80 as I don't need a ticket and they are doing 80+. Maybe the police are letting them get away with it because bunnies and trees are coming out of the tailpipe?

Wow they actually yell at you in NJ where you live? If they did that to me I would be on the news: Man kills Prius driver for yelling at him for driving a diesel, film at 11. Must be a county thing.

According to Toyota at both Prius school and published reports, a small gas engine is very efficient at highway speed. The hybrid powertrain is mainly for use around town. The aerodynamics of the car coupled with the extremely efficient engine gets the fuel mileage up on the highway. Like I said though there is a limit. The Prius drivers who pass me at 80+ do not get the 45 average, they are lucky to see 30 mpg.
FYI back in the 60's Honda made a micro car with a 600 and 800 cc engine which got 60+ mpg. If that had modern fuel injection technology but weighed the same it might see 80 while offering decent performance.

 

[El Dobro]

Wow they actually yell at you in NJ where you live? If they did that to me I would be on the news: Man kills Prius driver for yelling at him for driving a diesel, film at 11. Must be a county thing.

Princeton Junction, I'm not surprised.

 

[BMac]

I have had a Prius for 3 weeks while my Jetta was in the shop. The milage that I have gotton has been about 40 USmpg (38 / 41). While I did not drive the car much on the highway I did speak to the person that had rented the car before me (has only 3000 km on the "new" car) and the milage was less than my Jetta (@45) as well as a co-worker who used one for highway useage and he stated that it was no different than his 2003 Corolla. I must admit for around town it was great; nimble, agile , good visability and it heats up faster than my car. On the couple of times I drove it on the highway, it was no where near as stable and I (and family)certainly did not feel as safe. The storage is far less than the Jetta and I don't think that it would work for a family vacation. I am surprised by the figures above that both cars are mid size as to me the Prius fely much smaller. Also for having similar weight (mentioned above) it felt much lighter and with its all season tires was terrible in the snow.

Anyway sorry for the partial hyjack but real word numbers are improtant. Also home is fairly hilly but I was much lighter on the pedal of the Prius than I am with the Jetta.

Cheers

 

[Tarqal]

I am in the same boat as some others here wondering where the hell the 33MPG number keeps coming from.

My 98 has averaged 42MPG over 8 years and 120K miles. It is at 170K now.

Another point you keep bringing up which is inane is the edmunds and consumer reports costs. They mean exactly nothing to the vast majority of gearhead TDI owners. My 98 TDI has required less than $1,500 of total work in 120k miles. Excluding oil changes of course, which I do myself. I have no idea what the manufacturer reccomends, aside from timing belt changes. I don't look at it. I check my fluids, check my brakes, and do all the work myself, notwithstanding rebuilding my fuel pump. You talk about the consumer reports total cost of ownership as though it is some kind of credible source. MY cost of ownership is $12,800 (car) + $1,500 (maintenance) + $336 (oil changes) + $7,700 (fuel at 2.67 *much higher than real, I am sure* for 120k miles at 42MPG) = $22,336 -residual value of $5,000 (conservative) = $17,336. I don't think we even have hit the purchase price of a Prius here....

Also, you keep talking about this little website you hybrid guys like to post your fuel economy on. It is not a credible source. There is no regulation of any kind on it. It is used by let's say 5% of the people who own the car, in an effort to tout extreme fuel economy, and many of the cars in it have a conversion to run as a plug in Hybrid. I may as well put up my own bull**** site, recruit gearheads who can propogate a silly high fuel economy, then point at it as some kind of a reliable research project. It is no such thing. Put sensors in the car that trnasmit fuel data to the pump every time they fill up. I will happily have one in my car, and we can have an ACTUAL LEGITIMATE trial. Right now, we have 5% of the owner base accounting for 100% of your "statistics." I call bull****.

Lastly, time after time you keep bringing up the emissions alone as though they are what matters in this car. The life of the car being substantially longer leads to a lot less in production costs and pollution from being produced. Me reusing an oak desk my grandfather built 60 years ago is a whole lot more efficient than replacing it with a walmart unit, no matter how efficient that walmart unit is to produce. My 98 Jetta is better than your 2005 Prius. It is 7 years older, and I wager it will be on the road long after your Prius. Let me know when you clock 9 years on it.

Mike

 

[bakerinva]

That is the key...longevity. We will have to wait and see how hybrids are doing after 10 years in mainstream existence. That is why I went with diesel, I can vouche for longevity!! '79 Rabbit that lived 20 years and never had any major work done to it (I think the most expensive repair bill on that car ever was a set of new tires!) It would be interesting to compare how many hybrids vs. diesels are still on the road 10 years after purchase (would have to be by % since there are most likely more hybrids sold in past few years than diesels) But, I am betting that there would be a MUCH higher % of diesels kicking around at the 10 year mark than hybrids...but that is my opinion...

 

[hevster1]

Princeton Junction, I'm not surprised.

I go through there fairly consistently. I also go through Whitehouse, Flemington and Pennytown. I have never had it happen to me. I have never had it happen to me anywhere. I guess I look too menacing in my suit and Jerry Garcia tie.

 

[El Dobro]

I go through there fairly consistently. I also go through Whitehouse, Flemington and Pennytown. I have never had it happen to me. I have never had it happen to me anywhere. I guess I look too menacing in my suit and Jerry Garcia tie.

I'm down in the Princeton and Flemington areas fairly often in the warmer times of the year and I've had people down there ask me why I'm driving a dirty old diesel, when I get out of the car. A friend of mine lives in that area and I've even had his wife ask me why I drive a diesel. When I told her I average at a minimum of 40mpg, she told me that she guesses that would make it fairly green.

 

[hevster1]

I don't see why not. Typical service life of a Prius battery is unknown. Some have failed in the 100-150k range. Many are going strong at 150k, 200k, and even 300k. If I can buy a battery with 30-50k miles on it from a junk yard for $500 why wouldn't I do that? Its about as difficult to change as a tire. 4 bolts, pull the saftey key, pull the plug, swap and reverse. If you insist on new parts installed by a dealer, any older car will get expensive.

Rob

On a gen 1 I wouldn't do it for the reason that a layman might not be able to tell if the service campaign was performed (or correctly performed) or not. If not there is the potential of corrosion on the buss bars. This could at best render the battery useless in short order and at worst cause a fire.
I am also a bit hesitant purchasing used as if the used battery is too discharged to fire the engine a special charger is necessary. Every region has one available at the regional center. If a used one needs a charge how much of a charge will your wallet get from the dealership? Also there is the possibility of a junkyard battery being...well junk. I guess if it costs that much less it is worth the extra work to change it out more than once if necessary.
BTW I have swapped a few of these batteries. It is quite a bit more involved than your post suggests.
Last year a friend purchased a Highlander Hybrid. He traded a 2 wheel drive T100 in on it. He installed a trailer hitch on it and towed 2 dirt bikes to Daytona last March from NJ. He averaged 9-10 mpg. With the T100 V6 he averaged 15. When he returned he had the Highlander checked out with "no problem found". He contacted Toyota and was told that they could do nothing. He was lucky in that he knew the owner of the dealership who agreed to take it back. He did lose a few bucks but not that much. He now drives a Tacoma and is far happier.