Another HPFP? And at Just 40k!

[Stealth TDI]

Hello,

I just finished my first fuel filter replacement. The dealer did the one at 20k. I had them let me inspect the fuel filter housing before installing the new filter. In retrospect, I wonder what I would've seen if I had looked before the original filter was removed. Anyway, I opened my fuel filter, surprised to find the fuel under pressure and squirting everywhere, and didn't see any flakes. Then I shined a light in and could just BARELY make out flakes:

Here's a zoomed area of the same photograph:

As I said, I could barely see anything. I think I'm getting old when I have to snap a photo for a better look. I couldn't see any flakes once the black background of the fuel filter was removed. I swapped filters, primed with VCDS, and then started her up.

This is really discouraging! How long should I wait before taking it to the dealer? I think if I take it too soon then there won't be any flakes for them to see. What should I expect? Will VW clean/replace everything if the HPFP hasn't completely failed? Will they cover it ALL under warranty? When do I cut my losses with VW and go for the CP3/2micron conversion?

I was slightly hesitant when I bought the car, but opted to follow the advice of "drive more, worry less." Now that I have this just two weeks after Dieselgate, I'm a bit peeved. And I have TWO of these cars!

I appreciate your thoughts. I know there are plenty of threads about the HPFP, too many, actually. But I wanted to start my own thread to document my personal case with VW, just in case I have any trouble.

Thanks,

Scott

 

[croppz]

Man this sucks. And on a 14 so there goes the theory that the 13-14s don't have these issues. Now I'm gonna have to run outside and check mine lol.

 

[dmanb2b]

That does stink, however it's covered for another 80K miles, so run it like you stole it.

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

I would visit your local dealer asap and show them these pictures. I'm pretty sure the 2014s do not have the 120k mile extended warranty for the hpfp, so hopefully this will be covered by the 60k mile powertrain warranty.
The whole misfueling thing was BS according to the NHTSA engineering analysis. Since the pump is mostly unchanged across model years 2009+, people should expect these to continue failing even with the misfueling guard in place. Good luck!

 

[croppz]

Yeah I would go back to the dealer you got it from and see if you can get them to make it right. No reason for them not to, especially with all this dieselgate BS going on.

 

[Stealth TDI]

Hello,

I visited the dealer this morning on my way to work. The lots are only half-full. I spoke with my service manager and told him what I saw in my fuel filter. He had his mechanic, a person I had met when I first bought the car, come out to see my photos and discuss my situation.

First, the warranty extension does not apply to the 2014s. I already knew that. Next, he explained that VW won't consider replacing anything yet for a few reasons:

1) There is no CEL or no-start condition. Therefore, the HPFP is not yet failed. That's not exactly how he said it. But he indicated that some flake in the fuel filter is "within acceptable levels." So he has no reason to initiate a warranty claim.

2) With a CEL or no-start condition, he'd pull out the fuel filter and some sort of valve on the top of the HPFP (sorry, short on tech terms right now). Often, that valve is plugged up with flakes. Regardless, they send a fuel sample to VW for analysis. He didn't say a word about misfueling. Instead, he sounded as though VW actually assesses whether the amount of metal present is "within acceptable levels." Although he didn't say it, I was left to believe that the mechanic would simply clear the obstruction, replace the filter, perhaps flush the system, test for operation and proper fuel pressure, and then send the car on its way. I wasn't left with the impression that VW actually replaces everything until there's an actual failure AND there's "too much" metal in the system.

3) I had a third point, but cannot remember it. I may have said it already.

I think this is the first TDI they've seen with metal flakes that is newer than 2012. They noted that every TDI with a HPFP failure has been repaired under warranty, some with really high miles, far beyond the 120k mark. That's nice, but it's not terribly comforting when I have to wonder if my car will leave me stranded before or after the 60k warranty expires.

Does anyone have suggestions? The most I can think of for now is to have them "service" the car, open the fuel filter to see the metal flakes, and then document it in my service record. At least I'd be covered to a certain extent.

Sometimes, I think the drivers who know absolutely nothing about their cars are better off and just get the surprise one day instead of wondering, complete with the physical evidence that something WILL go wrong... eventually.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Scott

 

[NYC-TDI]

They noted that every TDI with a HPFP failure has been repaired under warranty, some with really high miles, far beyond the 120k mark.

Be aware this is no longer true.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Item #1 may be correct. A number of folks her have reported metal flakes in the fuel filter with no pump failure. If it were me I wouldn't be happy, but I'd probably replace the fuel filter again in 10K miles and see what's in there.

 

[sarahspins]

That does stink, however it's covered for another 80K miles, so run it like you stole it.

It is specifically worth repeating that the extended warranty does NOT apply to 2013 or 2014 models yet. It may in the future, but presently, they are NOT covered past the original 60k powertrain warranty. Many 2013's and 2014's are past that milage, and are basically SOL if something happens.

A warranty claim for a 2013 or 2014 is handled the same as any other MY though, beginning with a fuel test... however, VW is probably not going to do anything at all without a CEL or no-start of the vehicle in question.

I recently had the HPFP replaced at 27k in my 2014 due to "extensive contamination" in the fuel system caused by a rusted lift pump in the fuel tank. I had an intermittent CEL (code P0191), but my car was drivable otherwise, and my HPFP had not yet failed. My dealer was initially VERY reluctant to even handle my car as a warranty case, blaming all of the problems on me putting "poor quality diesel" in it (I never have, I've only ever filled up at Top Tier stations) it wasn't until I had paid a $100 diagnostic fee and then another $100 to replace my "gunked up" fuel filter at only 7k past the prior replacement at 20k, with them telling me that should fix things, and then eventually agreeing to spend about $400 "cleaning" my fuel system with my CEL returned the day after I had the fuel filter replaced, that they uncovered the bigger problem with the rusted lift pump and immedicately contacted the VW help desk for assistance (which is what led to the fuel system replacement). Why they didn't start there really frustrates me, especially because it COST me time/money and there was/is nothing I could do about it besides get angry with my dealer. They even replaced the fuel filter again just 70 miles after the one I paid for.. that I was NOT happy with, because I never would have had to spend anything if they had diagnosed my car properly the first time.

If nothing else, I'd request that your dealer document the metal flakes - that way if there is a problem in the future (possibly beyond the powertrain warranty) you have evidence that you brought it to them early and they could have fixed it before it completely failed, but didn't. That may give you more room to negotiate in the future.

That said, I have heard of cases of metal flakes visible without a HPFP failure ever occurring... so you could get lucky. Mine was replaced without any metal flakes at all.

 

[JBell]

It is specifically worth repeating that the extended warranty does NOT apply to 2013 or 2014 models yet. My dealer was initially VERY reluctant to even handle my car as a warranty case, blaming all of the problems on me putting "poor quality diesel" in it (I never have, I've only ever filled up at Top Tier stations)...

Let's assume you never intended to. You may have, unknowingly. Key points here. VW has been quick to throw gas stations under the bus, top tier or not.

 

[JBell]

Stealth, lets get this out of the way....

TL;DR - Did you use lubricity additives on a normal basis?

 

[Stealth TDI]

Religious use of Stanadyne.

 

[sarahspins]

Let's assume you never intended to. You may have, unknowingly. Key points here. VW has been quick to throw gas stations under the bus, top tier or not.

No, I get that, but there really wasn't any evidence that I'd gotten poor quality fuel other than the rusted lift pump. They were quick to blame me for any problem rather than correctly diagnosing it initially - that I have an issue with, particularly because it cost me about $200, and they wanted another $400 (which in the end, I didn't pay) that wouldn't have fixed anything.

 

[croppz]

Religious use of Stanadyne.

This is disheartening because I use stanadyne as well with every tank. Not saying it is to blame but I figured it would aid in preventing this from happening.

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

This is disheartening because I use stanadyne as well with every tank. Not saying it is to blame but I figured it would aid in preventing this from happening.

According to the NHTSA engineering analysis, they didn't agree with VW's conclusion that misfuelings or fuel contamination (with gasoline) was to blame for the fuel pump failures. I think they concluded up to 30% gasoline in the fuel would not cause significant damage to the pump. Some of these fuel pumps have failed very early, which (my $0.02 opinion) points at a manufacturing or fabrication problem, buf that's just guessing. I don't think any solid explanation for the failures exists at this time.

Fwiw, I'm still going to use an additive that has at least some water separation capabilities. I found a couple small water droplets in the bottom of my fuel filter canister at 40k miles, and I live in Nevada where it is dry as a bone. Cheap insurance anyway.

 

[SirSipsAbit]

With every new vehicle I've owned, little contamination of metal particles found during first filter changes is normal as this is part of the breakin process. I speak in general, wether it be oil filters or fuel filters. I wouldn't worry about it unless it continues to be a problem.

 

[Abacus]

Time to get the A3 ready again, you may need it.

Glad I never bought one of the new CR's even though I've spent the last few months doing nothing but B4 side work for other people. Give me one of those any day.

I hope it all works out, but you may want to stop the additive just so it dies quicker and can be fixed under warranty. No point prolonging the inevitable.

 

[croppz]

Time to get the A3 ready again, you may need it.

Glad I never bought one of the new CR's even though I've spent the last few months doing nothing but B4 side work for other people. Give me one of those any day.

I hope it all works out, but you may want to stop the additive just so it dies quicker and can be fixed under warranty. No point prolonging the inevitable.

You think they'd really deny warranty work for using an additive that is sold at their parts counter? I don't get my stanadyne from there but it's the same stuff regardless.

 

[Abacus]

From my post above, how did you conclude that they'd deny warranty work for using an additive? That was not what I posted.

They may deny him a warranty if he goes past the warranty period, which may happen if he uses an additive that prolongs the pump from failing. All I'm saying is rip the bandaid off fast and be done with it, don't go slow and make it last.

I have dealt with dealerships in the past and 'failed' means failed even though it could cause more damage later and cost a lot more, they're mindless automatons about it. I once had a car on which the starter would stay engaged for 8-10 seconds after the car started. I bought it to the dealer as soon as it did this knowing it was possibly chewing up the flex plate. They said the same thing, that it hadn't failed yet and the car started fine, and that they had to wait for it to fail until they could replace it. Waiting for a starter to die on an autotragic transmission in Maine during February is a guaranteed recipe for disaster. One of their best mechanics heard the conversation between the service manager and myself and followed me to the car as I left. I told him to listen and he was amazed, then said "don't shut it off, it just failed" and it was replaced that same day. He said some damage to the flywheel has started but it was not actionable so to just drive it. The transmission to this day has never been out and still works fine, over 300,000 miles and 17 years later. That mechanic didn't last long and went to work somewhere else, I hope he's doing well because he was one of the best and I requested only he work on my vehicle when it went in for service.

So waiting until it's failed is a ridiculous way to operate a business model. If you don't trust your mechanics to properly diagnose and remedy a problem, why would you trust them to do the job properly after the item has failed? Makes no sense.

 

[croppz]

From my post above, how did you conclude that they'd deny warranty work for using an additive? That was not what I posted.

They may deny him a warranty if he goes past the warranty period, which may happen if he uses an additive that prolongs the pump from failing. All I'm saying is rip the bandaid off fast and be done with it, don't go slow and make it last.

Whoops sorry about that! Misread it, I'll chalk that up to me being up for over 24 hours lol.

 

[Dozenspeed]

Stealth, don't panic yet! It's probably just breaking in. My '11 has nearly 9 times the mileage, is an older version, and likely spat a few flakes into the filter early on as well. Just stick to that maintenance diligently. DMWL!

 

[Abacus]

Damn, no worries, anything can happen when you're up that long.

 

[Dozenspeed]

Opps! I meant nearly just 7 times....bad math...

 

[Stealth TDI]

Thanks for the notes, everyone. And thanks for the encouragement, Dozenspeed. I'm going to continue using the additive. I have no desire to contribute to the earlier demise of the HPFP. I may take the car in earlier for it's next fuel filter change. I'll pay for the service just to get them to document the flake.

In the mean time, I'm going to get on the list to get the 2micron kits and possibly a CP3 HPFP kit. Time will tell. Hopefully, I won't develop a cracked DPF or other issues while I'm waiting. HAHA! Perhaps I can make this a 10-year car yet!

If the Dieselgate recall is manageable, I actually prefer to replace the HPFP with a CP3 and 2microntech kit BEFORE it fails. Once replaced, it'll be nice to never have to wonder about it again.

 

[croppz]

Stealth, any updates? Or did you just say screw it and move on until the next change and see if it got worse/better?

 

[Stealth TDI]

Nope. Just as I posted in #24 above, I'm going to wait it out. I'll get a 2micron kit as soon as I can swing it and then move on. If the HPFP lasts until my timing belt change, and if I keep the car that long, then I'll upgrade to a CP3.

 

[croppz]

Nope. Just as I posted in #24 above, I'm going to wait it out. I'll get a 2micron kit as soon as I can swing it and then move on. If the HPFP lasts until my timing belt change, and if I keep the car that long, then I'll upgrade to a CP3.

That's what I was thinking as well, was quoted 1350 all said and done for the CP3 upgrade with filter, i'd say that's not a bad deal considering.

 

[skinnyb]

I had a few flakes in mine at 20K and at 40k. By the 60k change they had all but disappeared. I have 78k on mine (over 60K with Malone tune) and drive it like I stole it all the time with not one hiccup at all. Will be doing the 80K soon and will look very closely then. I would not worry about a few flakes as long as it doesn't get any worse. I do use Stanadyne Performance every tank just to be safe...

 

[Stealth TDI]

Thanks, Skinny. That's reassuring. I'll do my next change at 59k and see how things look.

 

[1TDI4Me]

Not to hijack, but where does one acquire the CP3/2 micron kit. Is this a VWOA or aftermarket swap?