2008 Jetta TDI sighted!!! (pics)

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IndigoBlueWagon

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Wow, this thread has gotten some peoples' interest, including mine. I can't help but think that this common rail engine has very similar HP/torque figures as the PD engined 2.0 Passat. I wonder if it's a 8 or 16 valve head. And I wonder how the VW engineers feel about pros and cons of common rail versus unit injectors.

Nice looking car: I want HIDs in mine.
 

bhtooefr

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It's a 16v engine.

And, the 2.0 PD134 is an 8v version of the 2.0 PD140. This CR140 is merely a common-rail version of the PD140.

Note that there is also a PD170. And it seems that the CR-TDI has more potential. CR200, anyone? :eek:
 

Dodoma

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Wait until the 2009 model so that bugs in the 2008 model Jetta common rail diesel are hammered out. The only disappointment: hp out to be >175. Neverthless, a very good effort in the diesel arena.
 

lawallac

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Let us take in these number for a second. If this is a 140 HP 240FtLb CRD 16v. What will this mean for the tuners? How much will this raise the bar, figuratively and literally? This is good stuff I'm excited!!
 

nicklockard

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Huh?

I thought common-rail was generally better for emissions and worse for fuel economy.

How on Earth they managed to get 60 mpg freeway economy, if indeed it is true, must be from improved spray patterns (higher pressures and better nozzle design--with more precise timing), increased turbo compressor efficiency, lower rolling resistance tires and better top-gear final drive...

Any one thing alone would not have yielded as dramatic an increase as this very impressive 30% gain is:eek:

Cuz that thing has got to be just as heavy if not 100 pound heavier than the Mark V platform Jetta because of all the added emissions controls.
 

donfromnaples

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Wait until the 2010 model year when VW and a bunch of other car manufacturers begin offering their hybrid versions of turbo diesel cars. That will be worth waiting for.
 

jackbombay

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nicklockard said:
How on Earth they managed to get 60 mpg freeway economy...
They didn't, I don't believe for a second that the US version will get %25 more miles per gallon than the european version, 48 vs. 60? I've got some sweet ocean front property for a sale here in Idaho if anyone is interested...
 

donfromnaples

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According to the American government's own figures, if diesel had a 33 per cent share of cars and pick-ups, the U.S. would reduce its oil consumption by up to 1.4 million barrels of oil per day. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif]
That would mean it could stop importing oil from Saudi Arabia altogether.
Source: http://mydrive.roadfly.com/blog/ExJxZ3/
[/FONT]
 

nicklockard

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jackbombay said:
They didn't, I don't believe for a second that the US version will get %25 more miles per gallon than the european version, 48 vs. 60? I've got some sweet ocean front property for a sale here in Idaho if anyone is interested...
Agree 100%. I just didn't want to be the guy that said: "I'll believe it when I see it" this time. But yeah, pretty hard to swallow that one, huh? It would take at least two major engineering advances to achieve that.
 

hank miller

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lawallac said:
Instead of having these flexifuel vehicles why not have near 100% ethanol? Then we could take full advantage(?) of what the corn/switchgrass whatever has to offer. Is that not the logical next step and wouldn't it be nice to go to the fuel station and have to choose between beans or corn rather than D2 or RUG.
This should sound familiar to TDI owners:

Ethanol does not work well in a cold engine. In Brazil ethanol only cars have a small gasoline tank that they use for starting, once then engine is warm they switch to running Ethanol.

In the US we just blend 15% gasoline to save the bother of switching fuel tanks. In winter E85 is really E70, because that much gas is needed to start.

Ethanol doesn't gel when it gets cold though.

I've always wondered if you could put glow plugs in a flex fuel engine, and eliminate the need for any gasoline. I don't know, but I'm sure there is some solution that will allow running E100 even in the coldest winters - it won't come for a while yet.

In the mean time, the more biofuels we can get the better.
 

eb2143

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bhtooefr said:
It's a 16v engine.
And, the 2.0 PD134 is an 8v version of the 2.0 PD140. This CR140 is merely a common-rail version of the PD140.
Note that there is also a PD170. And it seems that the CR-TDI has more potential. CR200, anyone? :eek:
Interesting to see what they pop in the Audi TT diesel...if there is an Audi TT diesel on its way...

I'm really, really happy to see this engine this far along, never expected it so early
 

tdiflorida

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What a great thread! Love to see the growing interest in passenger car diesel engines. Diesel passenger cars are definitely the best answer to our current oil/environmental concerns. I see a VW TDI on the streets of Tampa at least once every other day (don't know if I'm just seeing the same 6 TDIs:), but I don't think so). I wouldn't trade mine for a $50,000 SUV, no way. Unless :rolleyes: , I could turn around and sell the SUV and buy two new Jetta TDIs! :cool:
 

Matt-98AHU

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I thought it might be ready by now. I suspect they're mostly waiting on the ULSD changeover to get further underway before they release their new TDIs. I wonder if MY 2008 TDIs will be released a little earlier than normal as well...

ULSD is still hard to come by, so a 2007 MY TDI, which would already be hitting showrooms by now, would have an extremely difficult time finding appropriate fuel.

Anyway, I want a Rabbit TDI 140CRD right now! Make it a 6spd manual.. no ABS or traction control. It's for sissies!

eb2143 said:
Interesting to see what they pop in the Audi TT diesel...if there is an Audi TT diesel on its way...

I'm really, really happy to see this engine this far along, never expected it so early
 

v8volvo

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GOOD LORD!!!!!

I posted the first message yesterday afternoon, and here it is today and the thread is SEVEN PAGES LONG!

The guy in the bowtie was VW's government-relations honcho, who works with certification issues. The guy with the German accent is an emissions chief from Michigan. I talked to them some more today, though they wouldn't pop the hood again in the more-public setting of City Hall Plaza. When I spoke with them yesterday, they told me 43/60 or something on mileage, and seemed pretty sure of it. Like some here have said, I'll believe it when I see it, but remember...gearing is important, and so is the lack of those efficiency-robbing PD unit injectors. The old VE Jettas were rated for 49 highway, and the '98 VE Passat TDI that was almost imported here was rated by the EPA at over 50, with its greater aerodynamics and gearing (see fueleconomy.gov). With 8 years of technology advancements, I would not doubt that 60 is possible with this engine. Common rail is a much more elegant solution than unit injectors, and I bet it adds lots of efficiency. A common-rail Mercedes 320 CDI gets equally good mileage as a Passat PD, but has way more power...think about that.


In any case, this car was definitely not some gussied-up '06 model--it was the real deal. Look at that timing belt arrangement...that is no PD motor. And since I hear a PD on a daily basis when I'm at home in Seattle (2004 Passat), I know their sound well, and this new CR TDI was way, way quieter. I wish I'd asked if it was an 8v or a 16v--I don't know. I did not notice any stickers under the hood warning about 505.01 or anything, and I imagine that won't be as big a deal as it was with the PD motors, because it won't have the super-high cam lobe stresses with this design.


One disappointment from today: I inquired about biodiesel in this new engine, and they said anything higher than B5 causes problems for the particulate traps (????) and cannot be used. Makes no sense to me, given that biodiesel dramatically REDUCES particulate output...but he did say that VW authorizes use of B100 in Europe in TDIs up to 2004, when the particulate traps started going in and, ostensibly, problems started occurring. We'll have to learn more about this. Apparently testing is still taking place.

Plenty of people have explained why I called the Ford and Chevy efforts garbage. Energy loss in fuel production, inefficiency of vehicles, cost and complexity of hydrogen-hybrid technology, impracticality...it's all there. An Avalanche will never be an eco-friendly vehicle, sorry. And unless we make a breakthrough on ethanol, it will continue to use more fossil fuel than it saves, while making people feel good about driving a "clean" car that's actually no better than a regular, gas-guzzling Avalanche. Then those people will feel like they have "done their part" in contributing to a cleaner environment, though they really haven't, and that will stall further progress. That is truly counterproductive. The clean electrical energy we'd use for processing of hydrogen should be used to power our grids, and then to power our all-electric city cars--we can't spare any clean power for wasteful production of H2.

But to make up for the downers, have a look at what I got to meet in person today at Altwheels:







Now THAT is my kind of alternative transportation!!! They also had an H2-powered Touran and a cool restored electric Microbus on display, but the Le Mans car and the Pikes Peak Touraeg TDI were definitely the stars of the show. Anyone who can make it down there tomorrow should definitely go and continue to express interest in the diesels...I saw the Ford, Honda, Toyota, and GM guys watching enviously as people flocked to the VW diesel exhibit, so maybe this will help bring more diesels of other makes here too. I had my fill today so I won't be there tomorrow, but if you go, enjoy.
 

rcnaylor

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V8Volvo, I've really enjoyed your man on the scene reports. If you get anything more, let us know.

I find the common rail and '08 is gonna happen news exciting. I just hope California and the EPA don't find some way to keep folks from getting a reasonable supply of what folks want that would be a step up for the environment and oil dependency issues.

I agree with you about the placebo effect of ethanol. Unless we find another way to produce it, such as from biomass instead of grains, it looks to be more drain on oil than reduction from it. But, as we are wont to do in the country, it will give some pols and special interests a chance to pose for pictures about what great solutions they/we are providing... while the real problems just are quietly getting worse.
 

istewart

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I do believe that I will wait for this engine to make it to market before considering any engine-swap projects any further... The extra power is good enough, but the increased fuel mileage is sorely tempting in any application. Of course, I'll be waiting for independent tests, as it could just be VW marketing pre-emptively blowing smoke for the enthusiast market.

I also look forward to more VW common-rail designs making it to the US market. Between this and the Accord which should be released in a similar timeframe, there should be no problem building a wider market for diesels.
 

RC

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justpaddlek1 said:
...The 2008 Preview is nice. Can't wait for that wagon........
Me too, got no need for no stinking sedan. ;)

Anyone have any info on the arrival of the new TDI wagons? Can someone find out of they go today?
 

BillsTDI

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I thought the TDI group was all about fuel efficiency, ie high mpg. Why swoon over a 140 hp engine even if it is a diesel. The mileage will no doubt be lower. It seems to be the same old pitfall. Overall mileage in automobiles has been nearly constant for 20 years while hp has continued to climb. What if all the technology were put into mpg instead of hp? We might have gas engines getting 70mpg. The recent drop in fuel prices (although diesel is lagging somewhat) is probably temporary. I hate to see us returning to the same old same old. What we really need is an attitude adjustment not more hp!
 

BillsTDI

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COrn ethanol vs sugar cane

TDIMeister said:
Ethanol does NOT have to be made from corn. Hydrogen does NOT have to be made from fossil fuels. The narrow-minded, nearsightedness of some people are absolutely astounding. Look beyond the straw-hole binoculars please. :rolleyes:
Right on! I just read an article in the newspaper that stated that ethanol from sugar cane produces 8 times the energy it takes to produce it. Corn was only 1.3 times. So it follows non-logic that the US Gov imposes a 54 cent/gal tariff on ethanol from Brazil because it is from sugar cane and is cheaper to produce than corn ethanol. How did that happen you might ask? Well, how may sugar cane fileds vs corn fields have you driven by in the USA! As for hydrogen, it can be found everywhere most commonly, water! The problem is that it is very explosive.
 

sunman

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"this kind of counterproductive garbage there"

Sad to say the FlexFuel vehicles being trumpeted by GM are desparation attempts to market their global warming, foreign fuel guzzling, trade deficit supporting V8 pigs.

and hydrogen is such a nice dream... but one we have no clue when we will wake up from (the dream)

FlexFuel will be relevant in a handful of years when cellulosic ethanol becomes the norm and flexfuel vehicles get 40mpg AND ABOVE. Then it will be something to be proud of.

Cellulosic ethanol will use any form of cellulose including that in the current waste-stream plus cellulose (such as switchgrass) grown on marginal land that will increase the NET energy gain (over inputted petroleum for production) by a factor of 10.

So corn ethanol is a good thing when considered as an "introductory" or "transition" fuel, because it is having the impact of developing the E85 pumping stations, retail familiarity, and (limited) vehicle production knowledge. And away from the consumer eyes, the fuel production infrastructure continues to grow. Once the cellulosic process is economical, it will be a simple process to change the front-end of these plants from accepting corn to taking different forms of cellulose.

But corn ethanol is NOT, by any means the answer to the problem. Just a path towards that goal.


It aint' e-z, but progress is being made. I think different University time frames see 2015 as the timetable for c-ethanol to be full scale, full speed ahead on the commercial level.
 

sunman

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Part of the reason I call hydrogen a dream is because of the PROHIBITIVE, UNBELIEVEABLE amounts of energy required to EXTRACT hydrogen from water and other sources. It's a net-energy loser... requiring more btu's of dirty coal or other energy to make it than what you get out.

Plus where are the fueling stations, etc.??? that takes a heckuva long time to develop even IF they get it efficient.

From corn ethanol there is 1.3 barrels oil equivalent (42 US gal / bbl) of NET energy gain per acre of corn turned into ethanol. Switchgrass cellulosic ethanol has a net energy gain of 13 barrels oil equivalent per acre.

The other environmental irony in SOME (not all) current ethanol plants is the use of coal as a energy source for the distilling columns. dirty, Dirty, DIRTY!

And the US has extremely limited s-cane production potential for using that... and no political will to import it. The USCGA (United States Corn Growers Association) is pretty damn powerful... and they LOVE their Avalanches, believe me!!! All the way to the bank.
 

bhtooefr

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BillsTDI: Take a look at what VW's expecting for the MPGs.

60 highway, 40 city.

And, note that when people get chipped, their MPGs usually go UP. This isn't a gasser, where just having the AVAILABLE power means lower economy.
 

elasto

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ARBY said:
I'll swing by VAG HQ this weekend (its on my normal training route) and see if I can spot any others. I'm surprised I haven't seen this yet as most of the new VAG products can been be seen driving in this area.
How would you be able to tell? It looks the same on the outside.
 

El Dobro

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Someone mentioned in a different thread that VW was going to drop the independent rear in the Jetta for a solid axle. Does the display model have the beam axle?
 
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bhtooefr

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They'd be stupid to do so, unless they got rid of a LOT of weight, or moved some weight to the back (battery relocation?)

The Mk5 Jetta pulls 0.83g on the skidpad.

The Mk4 pulls 0.79g on the skidpad. For comparison, the independent-rear-equipped Audi TT pulls 0.86g. .07g from that independent rear.
 

v8volvo

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El Dobro said:
Someone mentioned in a diferent thread that VW was going to drop the independent rear in the Jetta for a solid axle. Does the display model have the beam axle?
Interesting question, I did not think to look. I imagine that this is really basically just a German current-model car with a US speedo in it (look at that nav system...I doubt that will ever be a US option), so if they are going to switch to a torsion beam worldwide in a few years, I'm pretty sure this car didn't have one yet. It did not look or seem like a prototype at all, more like a production car that was ready to be sold. Do they already have the CR diesels in Europe?

I should have taken close-ups of the stickers on the core support...oh well. It's rainy today and I was there both yesterday and the day before, so I don't think I'm gonna go down again.

Our climate is vastly different from that of Brazil, which is why sugar cane is out of the question (unless we want to grow all our fuel in Hawaii). Besides that, the corn lobby is too powerful, and is one of the only reasons ethanol has gotten so far with such a positive image. They are squashing efforts to publicize the fact that ethanol is an energy-loser and a waste of development money and time, just like hydrogen. Switchgrass is promising, but we should really be putting our efforts into developing clean electric power and greater biodiesel expansion, possibly from algae.

Of course, none of those things will ever be able to fully replace fossil fuels at our current rates of consumption...and with traffic increasingly choking all cities, roads expanding and killing natural environments, and increasingly effective mass transit, the clear answer is the one that we car enthusiasts don't want to hear: those in countries all over the world (not just Americans) have just got to change their lifestyle and drive less.
 
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donDavide

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diesel prices

TXdore said:
I heard recently that one of the reasons diesel remains higher is that the Fall is the busiest time for long haulers, meanwhile gas keeps falling now that the speculation is slowing. A busy Fall for truckers makes sense since it precedes the holidays.
Diesel has dropped alot. I have a local EXXON that is selling for $2.49gal while they are charging $2.35 for regular (i can get that further up the road for $2.21) but it is the heating oil market that drives diesel prices. also gas drops more now because of the Boutique formula changes going into fall. Diesel will vary quite abit so keep your eyes open.
 

donDavide

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lawallac said:
That's what i'm saying. You phase out RUG vehicles to only flexifuel vehicles then eventually start offering E100. As long as the current fleet only lasts so long then all will be good to go.
youcan go alot further on diesel than E85. so you can plan. i never had a problem finding diesel.
 
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