1985 rebuld

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
It's easy to tell which kind the car has, if you remove the valve cover and look at the lifters the solid ones will have a slot on the edge that allows you to pop the shim out.

-J
 

RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
It's easy to tell which kind the car has, if you remove the valve cover and look at the lifters the solid ones will have a slot on the edge that allows you to pop the shim out.

-J
Thanks! I was just reading about that in the Bentley manual too.
Here's a pic from when we assembled the engine. You can clearly see the slots.

 

AWPGTI

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Location
Long Island
TDI
1985 Jetta
Hello all... I've been away for a little bit but I'm back to wrench on this jetta a little more.. In curious as to what kind of symptoms I would get with this being out of time?

Here is a list of parts I ordered to tackle the job..



Tool: Valve Shim Removal Pliers - VWs 75-86 (item #13678)

Tool: J-Shaped Valve Lifter Valve Adjustment, J-Tool for 81-86 (item #3505)

Valve Adjusting Shim Kit: 40 Piece Shim kit for Gas & Diesel engines w/Mechanical Head. (item #3522)

Timing Belt Tensioner Pulley: 1.5L Diesel, 1.6L Diesel, 1.6L Turbo Diesel 77-92 (item #1261)

Timing Belt: 1.5L Diesel, 1.6L Diesel, 1.6L Turbo Diesel 77-92 (item

Oil Drain Plug Washer: 14mmx20mm - Copper (item #3602)

Valve Cover Gasket: Jetta, Golf, Passat, New Beetle, & Cabrio 93-01 - 2.0L Gas Engine (item #14512)
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
I've got those cam adjustment tools somewhere( the removal pliers & follower crow bar ) along with a shim kit in one of my tool boxes.... A little larger gap makes cold starts easier, the engine has a longer time to compress the air without a valve open....

Not planning on ever needing them again but who knows.....
 

RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
Over the coarse of three days I read all 200 pages, all I can say is wow.
It was a pretty crazy ride for us as well. :D We learned a lot, had lots of fun, and gained lots of valuable troubleshooting experience.



I've been pushing Doug to get her a new paintjob (even if we do it ourselves)... But so far I cant get him to part with the original oxidized red paint.
 

RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
I come to you all tonight with the most significant update since the original engine swap / drama. After approx 55k miles the engine has started producing excessive blow-by and oil consumption has reached a crazy level. Long story short, the rings have failed as a result of high RPM's, Doug likes to cruise the NJ Turnpike at 85 Mph... I came across a post from Oilhammer on this forum where he said he once hit 90 mph and in the following days he had excessive blow-by and started to blow oil out of the dipstick. He later tore the engine down and found several broken rings.... We had the exact same symptoms and given that Doug cruises at high speeds in the trusty 85, all signs pointed to failing rings... So we ordered up the parts (Rings, gaskets, head bolts, etc) and tackled the project today after work.
Here are some pics and explanations of what we encountered and accomplished tonight.
Here is the engine as we started to remove hoses, wiring, valve cover and oil pan. We decided to pull the head and oil pan, and remove the pistons with the engine still in the car.

Next we removed the head bolts, and pulled the head right off of the engine with the manifolds still intact.



Doug & I spent a little time cleaning up the head and valves while it sat on the workbench...



Then we pulled the pistons one by one. Unbolted the connecting rods and pushed the rods/pistons up and out of the cylinders...


 

RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel

As we started to clean up the pistons we noticed that 3 pistons had marks from the exhaust valve making contact... This could have been from before we shimmed the valves, or the fact that this engine has a 1 notch head gasket. There are 3 available head gaskets for the engine, 1 notch being stock and the thinnest, 3 notches being the thickest, and 2 notches naturally being in the middle. You want to step up to the 2 or 3 notch when you have the head decked as more clearance is required for valves... So to rectify the situation, we ordered up a 3 notch gasket, and I polished up the tops of the pistons to remove the valve mark and smooth it out as best as possible. To check the valves we cycled the cam in the head to watch how the valves move and seat, all seemed straight and proper, so it does not appear that any damage was done there...



From there we installed the new rings and installed the pistons back into the cylinders where they belong.



One of the oil rings snapped in the installation process, so we had to order another ring set. Once that and the new 3 notch head gasket arrive we'll button it up and she'll be out on the open road. Stay tuned for more updates later in the week.
 

RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
I forgot to mention what we found regarding the old rings when we pulled the pistons out. None of the rings were broken as we expected they would be, but they were worn beyond belief. The oil rings (bottom ring) were completely smooth where they are supposed to have a channel running horizontally through them. The compression rings (two top rings) were worn to the point that some were nearly paper thin on one side. Huge difference next to the new rings.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
I'm wondering if there are different rings you could use that would be able to hold up to the loads of high RPM better.

In any case, have you actually measured TDC piston protrusion? That's how you select the gasket.

And, I'd inspect the lifters, too. Make sure they didn't crack or anything.
 

RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
I'm wondering if there are different rings you could use that would be able to hold up to the loads of high RPM better.

In any case, have you actually measured TDC piston protrusion? That's how you select the gasket.

And, I'd inspect the lifters, too. Make sure they didn't crack or anything.
We only found one set of rings that claimed to be "high performance" made of some swedish alloy but that was only for the standard size bore. We are one size over so we went with the regular rings for that size. However, now that we know that higher RPM is what kills these rings, Doug will not longer be cruising at anything over 70 mph. To ensure that, I will be adjusting the throttle stop bolt on the Injector Pump so that he can achieve only the proper RPM and nothing more from now on.

We read about the process for measuring piston protrusion and the head gasket selection process in the Bentley manual but we simply don't have that tool to do it. I used a polishing disc on a small 1/4 die grinder and polished up the tops of the pistons so that the valve marks were smoothed out, and with the 3 notch gasket we figure there is no way they can make contact anymore. Not much precise measuring involved since we don't have the tools, but thats the plan.

About 1000 miles ago we measured the shimmed the solid lifters and at that time all seemed good. We could only see the tops of the lifters as we replaced shims one by one, but all looked OK from that angle. Again not much precise measuring or inspection there, but it appears all is OK.

We've got only $200 in parts and fluids into this piston ring / gasket swap project now. The labor itself was not too bad, we started around 230 yesterday afternoon, and finished up around 9PM. That included multiple trips from Doug's house over to mine for tools and polishing, and one trip to the store for some fluids and bolts. We made real good time so far, and if you know us you know that time doesn't matter much to us, because this stuff is FUN! Once the rings and head gasket arrive (Doug picked up the gasket this morning, just need rings now), we should only have a couple more hours to finish this up.
 

RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
Sounds like a look at the overall gearing is in order, unless you really enjoy rebuilding top ends.

As cool as it would be to re-gear the trans for higher speeds, that's just not a cost effective or practical solution for a 1985 Jetta. So the solution here is Doug will slow down to about 65 mph from here on out now that we understand that higher rpm makes the engine eat itself.

And yes, I do really enjoy rebuilding the too end. I guess we could make this part of routine maintenance. ?
 

Rapidrob

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2004
Location
Edgewood,New Mexico
TDI
96' Passat Wagon
As for the honing. I was always told that the walls were never to be smooth when new rings were installed. The walls were to be crosshatched using the ball/wire hone moved in an up and down motion to form a cross hatch pattern. This technique will allow the new rings to 'seat" and provide the best possible seal.
Like the engine of the TDI 1.9,you were not to change the oil for many thousand of miles to allow the rings to seat properly.
Is the older diesel engine not required to have the cylinders honed or are they to be as smooth as possible?
Look forward to your project being completed with details.
 

MonsterTDI09

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Location
NoVa/NJ
TDI
2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
I would replace the valves. Some time down the road stem will break.
 

RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
As for the honing. I was always told that the walls were never to be smooth when new rings were installed. The walls were to be crosshatched using the ball/wire hone moved in an up and down motion to form a cross hatch pattern. This technique will allow the new rings to 'seat" and provide the best possible seal.
Like the engine of the TDI 1.9,you were not to change the oil for many thousand of miles to allow the rings to seat properly.
Is the older diesel engine not required to have the cylinders honed or are they to be as smooth as possible?
Look forward to your project being completed with details.

You're right, ideally the cylinders should be honed... If we did that we'd really need to pull the engine from the car, remove the crank and all, hone it and then clean it properly to remove the honing debris. Given that the engine/trans are staying in the car for this ring swap and that the cylinder walls looked good, we left them alone.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
The cost of replacing the engine when you drop a valve, though...

In any case, what about just getting the whole transmission from an 85-86 gas car? Same ratios, but a taller (3.67) final drive.
 

RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
The cost of replacing the engine when you drop a valve, though...

In any case, what about just getting the whole transmission from an 85-86 gas car? Same ratios, but a taller (3.67) final drive.
Never thought about a gas trans swap. I'll have to do some math and see what RPM/MPH difference that equates to.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Gear ratios for both transmissions in question: 3.45, 1.94, 1.37, 1.03, 0.75
ACH (your trans) final drive: 3.94
ACN (or ASF, AON, ACL, but ACN is the most direct swap - IIRC ASF is set up for the small reverse switch, and AON and ACL have the large axle flanges): 3.67

3000 RPM in 5th right now is 68 mph. Swap to the ACN, it's 73 mph. Not a huge improvement, but it's something.

If you want more radical, a 0.71 5th gear is available, and that's a relatively easy change. That gets you 77 mph.

Other options that are available are 02A conversions, although I'm not sure I'd recommend 02A CTN (the TDI one) without a turbo, and even if you get a gasser one, that's a much more involved conversion anyway.
 

nynjtdi

Member
Joined
May 15, 2004
Location
NY NJ area
Christ on Crutches

I can't believe this is happening again!
I just watched the re-make of The Philadelphia Experiment (Michael Pare' makes his comeback!) and I though that was bad....

I've got a question
During the original rebuild, When you put the rings on and dropped the pistons in the block were the breaks in the rings offset from one another (1 at say 6 and the 2nd at 12)?
 

RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
I can't believe this is happening again!
I just watched the re-make of The Philadelphia Experiment (Michael Pare' makes his comeback!) and I though that was bad....

I've got a question
During the original rebuild, When you put the rings on and dropped the pistons in the block were the breaks in the rings offset from one another (1 at say 6 and the 2nd at 12)?
LOL - Its really not a big deal. We've gone through so much that this really is a pretty easy task. We had the head and oil pan off and were pulling the pistons/rods in under two hours. :D

The rings/pistons were installed at the machine shop (Freddy @ EngineLand) last time because they had to mic the crank and install new bearings on Cyl # 2 IIRC.

This time we "clocked" the rings properly as we dropped the pistons back in.
 
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RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
Rings have arrived. If all goes well, we will finish up and have her running again tomorrow.
 

dieseljunkie

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Location
New England USA
TDI
96 Passat TDI wagon
"Long story short, the rings have failed as a result of high RPM's, Doug likes to cruise the NJ Turnpike at 85 Mph... I came across a post from Oilhammer on this forum where he said he once hit 90 mph and in the following days he had excessive blow-by and started to blow oil out of the dipstick."

I have never heard high RPM killing VW IDI's. Can you provide more info on that? I thought you can drive as fast as you want since the IP governor as set from the factory sets your top speed.

I don't remember the history of your engine 100% but it went something like this:

It had the wrong oil pump and engine ended up needing a rebuild.

Rebuild shop bored block out to next oversize.

You added an Amsoil bypass oil filtration system.

Now you have worn rings and valves hitting the pistons.

Did the rebuild shop measure piston protrusion before selecting the head gasket, or was the engine mis timed?

Are the worn rings due to oil lube issues or a bad rebuild? One has to wonder.

You are taking a chance not replacing the valves? Hammering the piston weaken the valves and one eventually breaks and wreck pistons and block.
 

RonJitsu

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Location
Central NJ
TDI
2005 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI, 1/2 of a 1985 Jetta 1.6 Diesel
Here is the Oilhammer post I was referring to where he had the same exact symptoms as Dougs car.Remember doug was doing 85-95 mph every day (one hour up and one hour back):
It is a '91, one of the last of the non-turbo cars. Castrol 5w40 Syntec, Mann oil filter, every 10k miles. It had a valve-job at 246k, mainly due to the head gasket starting to seep a little oil at the front of the engine. It started getting a LOT of blowby rather suddenly at around 430k miles, shortly after I ran it up to 95 for the first time ever (I really had to poop, and was still about 5 miles from home :eek:). It started spitting the dipstick out from excess crankcase pressure, then a couple times on the highway I had a couple 1-second runaways, so I decided it was time to tear it down.
I found minimal piston wear, cylinder walls still clean and crosshatches present everywhere except some minor shiney spots near the top where the rings stop. A light hone cleaned that up, the rings themselves were pretty worn, and 2 rings came out in 2 pieces.
Still, 437k miles is not too shabby for a 52hp engine that spins nearly as fast in 5th on the highway as a TDI does in 3rd gear.:p
I suspect many earlier cars had bore wear issues from people cranking the timing way advanced to squeeze more power out of them, not sure. I rebuilt an '86 engine that had some, but both my '81s and my '82 just needed rings. I recently had an '82 in here, with an early '81 engine in it, that had severe bore wear, even had a huge lip at the top.
it can be found in this thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3288652&highlight=broken+rings#post3288652
 
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