Stuck injectors...how likely?

[wyopel]

I have had at set of injectors with new nozzles, mounted, tested and ready to go sitting on my bench for about 8 months now. I finally got around to putting them in my 1Z with around 227k mile on it it. I suspect it may have the original injectors.

I went to swap last night and all 4 were pretty stuck. I read other threads on stuck injectors and it sounds like a nightmare...with some requiring modified slide hammers, months of work, and even having to pull the head off to get them out. I can't afford to have this car down for too long.

My question is how likely is it that the injectors are so stuck it will require more than just penetrating oil and a slide hammer?

I understand the answer is probably something like"...it depends..." I am just trying to get a sense of the probability that the my car may be down for a month rather than a day. So for those of you that have swapped injectors multiple times, how frequent is a severely stuck injector? Do I just hope I am lucky?

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

You're right, it does depend. In part it depends on how long the injectors have been in there (sounds like it might be 25 years), and also depends on carbon buildup in the head. If the car has been driven gently all its life they may be harder to remove.

 

[ToddA1]

OG injectors, be ready for a fight. They’ll come out, but start spraying them down, now. I’d probably heat cycle them a few times in between spray downs. I’d probably keep driving the car, and spray them down a few times, wiggling the flats with a wrench… let the oil creep.

I easily spent over an hour on pulling Rotbox’s injectors. That was some serious cardio…

-Todd

 

[garciapiano]

You need a BEEFY slide hammer. I used the metalnerd one and it didn’t budge them one bit. I received a slide hammer from DBW LLC which appeared to be custom built for the application and it knocked them out in a couple pulls. The slide weight was easily 3x the weight of the metalnerd one.

 

[wyopel]

Yep. Started spraying tonight and will do that for the next week or so while I driving in between. Borrowed a slide hammer from Autozone. seems beefier than the metalnerd one...and its free as long as I can get it back in time. I think it's like 5 pounds. I need to weld up a way to attach it, but it is worth a try. I also have a hoist I could try if needed. Between that the oil and the hammer I am hoping it is not too bad.

I have taken them out before on another b4v, and it was no big deal. Just needed to get them turning. These would not turn AT ALL. In my younger days I would have reached for a bigger hammer, vice grips, a torch, and then probably stayed up all night until I was exhausted and/or broke something badly. Sounds like patience is key.

Anyone ever try to use something like a bearing puller? Not sure how that might attach, but I am guessing someone on this forum was smart enough to figure it out.

 

[Abacus]

I’m not going to tell you the horror story I had because I don’t want to discourage you.
But Kroil and a massive slide hammer are your friends…and time.

 

[Steve Addy]

OTOH, I pulled injectors from a 242k mile TDI that was the donor for my 1990 B3V and they didn't fight at all. Now it could be because they had been serviced before, but honestly I doubt it.

I do recommend that you prepare though with lots of lubrication before it's time to pull, like the others mentioned.

Steve

 

[wyopel]

Abacus I read the thread where you talked about your nightmare. That's why I stopped when I realized they were stuck pretty good. I can't lose this car for a month right now. So I decided to consult the collective wisdom of the forum before I risked turning a small job into a BIG repair. I'll let y'all know how pulling these injectors goes once I get them good and oiled.

I'm pretty sure this forum has saved me thousands over the last 8 or so years. I've learned a lot and maybe helped a few others. Good deal. Thanks again everyone.

 

[ToddA1]

Once oiled and they start to wiggle, I’d be tempted to loosen the hood down clamps, very slightly. Start the car and rev it a bit to see if it helps loosen them.

Here’s a tip, I wish I’d done when I pulled the set from Rotbox. Unplug #3 and secure the wire and plug to the injector. Maybe tape it down, so nothing is dangling. Then start with the slide hammer.

When I was slide hammering, (with all my might), it suddenly popped free and the plug snagged on something and got ripped off. Needless to say, I wasn’t happy. I had to sell that set at a substantial discount.

-Todd

 

[ToddA1]

As for the slide hammer, I definitely would NOT use a bearing separator.

I’m guessing the SH end is male threaded. Find 2 nuts that match the SH and weld a M14x1.5 nut to one of them. The other will be used as a jam nut.

If you don’t have a welder, go to an exhaust shop and have them weld the nuts together, for you. Slip the dude some cash.

The metric nut is the thread pitch of the injectors. Happy hammering!

-Todd

 

[Nevada_TDI]

In the past I used a 17mm wrench to wiggle them just a bit, once they wiggle a bit they should easier to get out.
Of course crack loosen the injector nut first.

 

[Steve Addy]

In the past I used a 17mm wrench to wiggle them just a bit, once they wiggle a bit they should easier to get out.
Of course crack loosen the injector nut first.

I wiggled mine as well, but there was only one that was reluctant to come out and it didn't resist for very long. Then again I'd been soaking them for a while.

Steve

 

[Nevada_TDI]

A brass 12 gauge brush fits the hole nicely and cleans up any crud.
Be gentle with this tool.

 

[wyopel]

I was able to wiggle them a tiny bit tonight. So progress. I'll probably go another week oiling after its hot.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I asked my guru yesterday if he had difficulty removing the original injectors from my 290K mile B4. He said it wasn't really easy, but not terrible. We agreed that how the car is driven matters as carbon accumulation from gentle driving can make them harder to remove. He also said that, after years of doing this, he now follows the guideline that if he can't get them out in 30 minutes, the head is coming off. He said he's worked hours on a stuck injector over a period of days only to take the head off in the end, so now he doesn't postpone what is likely inevitable.

 

[oilhammer]

I've not ever had much trouble with any, although I have had to heat cycle and presoak a few over the years.

 

[ToddA1]

he now follows the guideline that if he can't get them out in 30 minutes, the head is coming off.

Seriously…. 30 minutes? I’d rather struggle for a couple hours, rather than pull the head, but then again, he’s not paying the tab.

What does pulling the head do? Is he knocking then out with a hammer?

-Todd

 

[oilhammer]

Replacing the head.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I doubt he puts a timer on it, but you get the idea. His point was that he's spent hours over several days trying to get injectors out of these heads, only to end up pulling the head anyway. I don't know how he gets them out of the head once it's removed.

 

[ToddA1]

Replacing the head.

I like that! Charge book rate for the head, ex man, turbo, intake, timing belt, etc.. All separate jobs!

-Todd

 

[oilhammer]

As cars get older, we have to make the time we spend on them at least somewhat malleable. Otherwise, nobody will be willing to work on them. There is already a lot of that as it is.

I just did a head job and rering on a '98 New Beetle at 420k. I didn't charge the entire book time (16.7 hr) because she simply wouldn't have done the job. I ate a little of labor myself, and made it a non-priority job, which she was fine with. Boss of course isn't "happy" about it, but he won't starve (and I get to keep an ALH on the road!).

But yeah, at some point, the time just becomes too much, and you have to decide when to cut your losses and move on to something else.

 

[Windex]

OilHammer, curious as to the need for the rering and head replacement on the ALH beetle. Less than optimal oil change intervals? Just worn out? How was the turbo?

 

[oilhammer]

Before I started caring for it, it had some... let's say "less than stellar" care. So the last few years I've worked hard to get it all back into decent shape. Original owner.

It has had some pretty strong oil consumption for a while, and has probably been run low on oil a number of times. The turbocharger failed not all that long ago, possibly from repeated oil starvation, but it was also pretty old.

Lately, it had started to use coolant... and it has had some nasty cross contamination in its cooling system in the past, so I had expected a rotted out head gasket or who knows what. Then it went from bad to worse, and it actually started smoking and hydrolocked on its own coolant. I pulled the plugs out, pulled the EGR tube from the cooler to the valve off, and pressure tested the system... it was not the EGR cooler (never seen an ALH one fail anyway, but it did act like one on a BHW that fails). Coolant started coming out #1 cylinder plug hole.

So I pulled the head off, and when I did, I noticed that the intake itself was full of coolant, as were all the cylinders showing evidence of steam cleaning from burning coolant. Just like you'd expect to see with a failed EGR cooler, even though there was NO coolant present up there. The block's water jacket had lots of brown crud (consistent with coolant contamination... a steady diet of G12 was certainly NOT in this car's history!). Lots of pitting and corrosion on the head, too.

Machine shop cleaned the head, and found a hole and corroded its way through the water jacket and into #2 intake port. Due to the normal reversion process of diesels' intake manifolds, the coolant was actually being pushed/pulled into ALL four cylinders, it just so happened that when I pressure tested it, #1 intake was open.

I pulled the pistons and rods out to mainly inspect for any damage from the hydrolock. I went ahead and replaced the rings (worn, but not terrible, and nothing broken) and the rod bearings (again, worn babbit but not terrible) just because.

It got a new head, too. It runs good and strong now, no smoke, and hopefully minimal oil consumption once the rings get seated.

 

[wyopel]

Injectors are out.

I'll do a longer write up at some point, but in short I think the best strategy is to spray with penetrating oil, I used pb balaster, every time you turn the car off (so engine is hot). Do this for like 2 weeks driving the car every day or every other day. After week one, attempt to wiggle them. Then do that again after a few more days of oil after driving. When they are wiggling good, that's when to break out the slide hammer. I borrowed one form autozone, so no cost EXECPT I had to weld up an adaptor so it would screw on to the injectors. All of mine popped out with a few hits of the slide hammer. Very easy.

As I described above, the injectors were very stuck. Before oil, I could not get any of them to turn at all, and that was with a long cheater bar. Super stuck. Oil, wiggle, oil, wiggle, and patience seemed to work very well.

 

[ToddA1]

Is a write up needed? I figured this was common knowledge, and it’s all in this thread.

-Todd