Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
new front brakes (back just resurfaced)
Our cars' rotors are inexpensive. They should be replaced instead of resurfaced.

It's not just a VW thing either. I've owned BMWs since the 80s and it was the same thing with all of them. Probably all European manufacturers. Might even be true for domestic cars now but I haven't driven one or wrenched on one for decades now so I can't even speculate.
 

Jeta Life

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Location
NJ & North Pocono
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI DSG Auto
Oh yea... Don't know about a Lincoln, but the new Cad ATS-V is a BMW M3 killer. Test show it to be as good or even a better car, a real track car. I love that kind of car.... miles per gallon? 16/24. Not great but it is a very high performance car. It starts at $62K which is good for this kind of car. Style? Not a big fan. I would love to have one, but I am saving for my old age. If I could have a car for under $200K, Porsche, Audi R10 or the new Acura NSX would be nice. Money no object? A nice Ferrari or Bugatti Veyron... ahaaa dreams... I will be driving to work in my 5 year old TDI tomorrow... content. Good enough.

http://www.caranddriver.com/cadillac/ats-v

http://blog.caranddriver.com/squeezing-three-at-the-cherry-m3-2016-cadillac-ats-v-priced/
Cadillac ATS V looks really cool, wouldn't mine having one of those but the price is sure out of my range. It can be affordable in the aftermarket off a lease but I'll stick to my TDI. My brother in law who had a 2000 MB S430, now has a 2007 MB S550 4Matic which retailed at over $100K, but at 9 years old he got it for $25k...depreciation.

There are some nice looking 2011 MB BlueTec E350s in the 20k range..real tempting. Wonder how that feels compared to a TDI. My next car will probably be a Mercedes, used but still a Mercedes. MB drivers are rarely abusive to their cars which are always dealer maintained. But it is still a risk. Getting a $60k car in the $20k range may be my next purchase.

S550 is too flashy, but an E350 is all right.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/mercedes-benz-e-class-review-mercedes-e350-diesel-test

One more article:
http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2013/05/mercedes-benz-e350-bluetec-18-month-review-and-report/
 
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2015vwgolfdiesel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Location
Oklahoma
TDI
2015 VW Golf S DSG Silver
Actually I have gotten 120 several times if I drive it 100% in city...

It also depends on which Spark EV you get.. 2014 was better range on the freeway. 2015 and 16 better in town.
120 miles --- WOW --- Respectfully, IMHO not too practical in the fly over states:)
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Location
Oklahoma
TDI
2015 VW Golf S DSG Silver
bizzle;5047114[B said:
]Our cars' rotors are inexpensive. They should be replaced instead of resurfaced.[/B]

It's not just a VW thing either. I've owned BMWs since the 80s and it was the same thing with all of them. Probably all European manufacturers. Might even be true for domestic cars now but I haven't driven one or wrenched on one for decades now so I can't even speculate.
Thanks for the heads up

57 years of driving with only 2(?) replace rotors ... Father taught me to NOT ride the clutch nor the brakes

... helps also to not tail gate ... I laugh a lot at the speedos who pass me and 2 seconds later hit the brake lights:D
 

miniion26

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Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Location
Lake Wallenpaupack, PA
TDI
2005 Mercedes E320 CDI
You have a 10 year old car with a timing chain,?? I really would not be bragging....
when! Not if that thing fails the cost of replacements will far exceed the value of your new car.....
by the way every t-chain system has xxx- number of rpms rated life span. And for your cars age you are at the end of the rated rpm life cycle for that timing chain drive system, especially if the car has an automatic transmission which means you have turned many more rpms clocked for the miles which are on you clock.......
Oil, this looks like a good time for you to chime in on this.....
I respectfully disagree. Timing chains are a lot better than timing belts, IMO.My 124 300D was a 1991 and I have sold it at 340 000 miles with no real usage on the chain, never adjusted. Sale took place in 2012. I do know that there is a difference between Benz and VW in terms of quality, but nothing to warrant any fears on a 10 yrs old engine with a chain.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
It is amazing that you just said that. I just purchased a 2.5 L 5 cyl 2006 Beetle Convertible. I had the 2.0 beetle convertible in 2003. I was just commenting on how great the exhaust note is with the top down on the 2006 5 cyl. It does remind me of my Audi 6 cyl. convertible sound. Power is a lot better than the 2.0 non turbo 4 cyl. from 2003. I am glad to hear that the 5 cyl. is a reliable engine, and really glad to read that it has a timing chain.

It has TWO timing chains, and when they go (and they will) you'll think changing a timing belt every 100k miles on the old 2.slo was nothing... LOL. :p

They did some improvements to the chain drive starting in 2008. But I have not seen any of them with high(er) miles on them to know if they are better. I've seen a few 2005-2006 engines with jumped chains and trashed guides/tensioners/etc. Just like the VR6.
 
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TCBinaflash

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Location
Chagrin Falls, OH
TDI
2012 Golf TDI
It has TWO timing chains, and when they go (and they will) you'll think changing a timing belt every 100k miles on the old 2.slo was nothing... LOL. :p

They did some improvements to the chain drive starting in 2008. But I have not seen any of them with high(er) miles on them to know if they are better. I've seen a few 2005-2006 engines with jumped chains and trashed guides/tensioners/etc. Just like the VR6.
Your speaking about the 2.5 ?

Sorry, just making sure in case there is a quiz at the end of threadzilla
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Your speaking about the 2.5 ?
Sorry, just making sure in case there is a quiz at the end of threadzilla

Yes, although we really should specify I guess WHICH 2.5L.... and my 2.5L won't ever suffer any chain carnage (it has a proper belt :p ).

I was speaking of the DOHC gasoline I5 as sold in the A5 cars, some later New Beetles, some NCS Jettas and NMS Passats, and some current style Beetles.

There are about 6 or 7 different engine codes just for those cars mentioned, and they do not all use the exact same parts. The earlier engines with usually the 3-digit engine codes (BGP, BGQ, BPS, etc.) are the more problematic ones. The later engines (CBUA, CBTA) have the improved parts.

Volkswagen has also sold a few other 2.5L engines. There are many 5cyl TDI engine codes that displace 2.5L, of several totally different families, as well as a VR5 engine, and the above mentioned 2.5L gasser I5 in my T4 Eurovan.
 
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mjLyco

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Location
NJ
TDI
2010 Golf 2-Door TDI DSG
I love how the media & EPA really play up "defeat devices". Makes it sound like there's some hidden extra box some place in the car...

...Nope, it's all in the coding/programming of the engine's ECM.
That's because it's been on the books since the 70s when it used to be actual devices instead of software. They could change the wording to defeat software but then VW would just bolt on a device and say they didn't break the law because it wasn't software. :p
 

bockegg

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
PA
TDI
2009 Jetta Loyalty TDi w/ DSG
The 24v VR6 is probably my favorite sounding NA 6 cylinder engine ever made. Supercharge one and it's sonic bliss!


Make sure you get that timing chain inspected soon. It might be the most reliable VW engine, but it's still no Honda engine :p
Good advice. That was the 1st thing I did. At 72,000 miles the entire car is like new. Helps that I know the owner that I bought it from too.
 

aliasbane

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Location
CT
TDI
Passat 2013
Excuse me? That is a foolish comment. I live in the SF Bay area. EVs are awesome. I can drive to work and relax for 39 miles. If Im lucky I can charge at work. If not, no problem, I can make it home easily on the remaining charge and still have over 20-30 miles left depending on how I drive. The more traffic, the better.
On my days off, I have tried like mad to go down to zero on the miles but I ran out of things to do. With an EV, I might fill my TDi up about once every 3 months. I sit in traffic and I relax.. The power is amazing and smooooooth and quiet...
I love my Spark EV... its a great car. Comfortable as well.
That may be true, but most places do have convenient EV charging for the masses, you pretty much need a Garage and regardless in the SF Bay area, cost of living is insane....
 

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
The only way that I can see this happening is if they intend to propose a fix/settlement of the U.S. TDI issue in a hurry. We'll see...maybe they'll actually have something (proposed) in the next month or two.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-debt-idUSKCN0X81A7
Volkswagen aiming to return to debt market as early as May: sources
Volkswagen is hoping to return to the bond market as early as May, people familiar with the matter said, aiming to raise billions of euros to replace the costly bank loan it has been relying on in the wake of its emissions test cheating scandal.
Europe's biggest carmaker has been effectively shut out of the unsecured bond market since September, when it admitted to rigging U.S. diesel emissions tests.
Investors have been put off by uncertainty over the costs of the scandal, which could run into tens of billions of euros in regulatory fines, vehicle refit costs and lawsuits. That has left the German company relying on an expensive 20 billion euro ($23 billion) bridging loan agreed with banks in December.
With the publication of its annual results on April 28, however, Volkswagen (VW) hopes to provide some clarity on costs.
"Volkswagen has started talking to banks, and a first issuance may take place right after the publication," one of the sources said, speaking on condition of anonymity as the matter isn't public.
 

autdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2004
Location
Alabama
TDI
2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2013 Beetle, 2013 Touareg
The only way that I can see this happening is if they intend to propose a fix/settlement of the U.S. TDI issue in a hurry. We'll see...maybe they'll actually have something (proposed) in the next month or two.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-debt-idUSKCN0X81A7
Somewhat depends on the exposure in the rest of the world. The 500k in the US is a small fraction of the 11M worldwide. Unless the rest are looking more like a meh settlement, until the worldwide cost is known, debt is going to be very expensive, though not as bad as the bridge loan they have now.
 

MichVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2013
Location
Michigan
TDI
2014 JSW DSG. 2011 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
well... sitting at the local VW dealer getting the free 20,000 service done on the wife's JSW this morning. Told them not to touch the ECM or flash the 2306 update. Unfortunately, the car already had the update. Sucks. Oh well..

Talked to my salesman about cars sales over the past 6 months and he said sales have definitely slowed but TDI sales only make up 15% of their total sales. He said it wasn't too bad.

Talked to the service writer about the scandal, and he knew nothing other than there may be more news on the 21st via the hearing. He also mentioned that MANY TDI owners are putting off scheduled service because they are waiting. He said the service department has had two techs quit over the last few months because it has been very slow.

No real news... just bored....sitting..... waiting...
 

romad

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
Prescott, AZ
TDI
2005 Jetta GLS Wagon "Cranberry"
Our cars' rotors are inexpensive. They should be replaced instead of resurfaced.

It's not just a VW thing either. I've owned BMWs since the 80s and it was the same thing with all of them. Probably all European manufacturers. Might even be true for domestic cars now but I haven't driven one or wrenched on one for decades now so I can't even speculate.
Actually, it depends on whether 1) the rotors won't be at their minimum after turning, and 2) the cost of turning vs. cost of new rotors. I had my rotors turned on my Miata once, but that was years ago. But the last time I did the brakes, I bought new rotors as the old ones were very close to minimum. Additionally, I noticed that the cost for new ones had come down drastically in price and (for the Miata at least) were comparable to the cost of having them turned (labor costs have gone up). I haven't had to do the Jetta yet however, so I don't know what the price differential will be. Besides, turning rotors/drums is a form of recycling! :D
 

autdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2004
Location
Alabama
TDI
2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2013 Beetle, 2013 Touareg
Actually, it depends on whether 1) the rotors won't be at their minimum after turning, and 2) the cost of turning vs. cost of new rotors. I had my rotors turned on my Miata once, but that was years ago. But the last time I did the brakes, I bought new rotors as the old ones were very close to minimum. Additionally, I noticed that the cost for new ones had come down drastically in price and (for the Miata at least) were comparable to the cost of having them turned (labor costs have gone up). I haven't had to do the Jetta yet however, so I don't know what the price differential will be. Besides, turning rotors/drums is a form of recycling! :D
My mechanic said don't bother, the rotors are cheaper than his time to turn them. Said axles are getting close, to clean and repack both ends, get the boots back on, just barely cheaper to have him do it. Perhaps in a big shop where you can get someone else to do the cleaning, but not small independents.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
Who needs spacious? I moved 2 adult Nubian goats in the back of a Honda Civic ~30 years ago. Back then the Civic was a really small car. Closer to a mini than today's Civic. They just hunkered down and stayed still. For 200 miles. Thank God.
Sorry this is so off-topic. I've just never run across anyone else who was nuts enough to move goats in a car. And I don't expect it's ever gonna happen again ... :cool:
LOL. That definitely takes patience and guts, especially if they had horns. Not sure if they were bucks or does; my Nubian buck is about a year old, but he's already over 160 pounds. A lot of people, myself included, won't sell goats to people who plan to transport them in the back seat of a car, or in the trunk (beyond me why anyone would transport livestock or their dog in the trunk). A hatchback, wagon, or truck, no problem.
 

romad

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
Prescott, AZ
TDI
2005 Jetta GLS Wagon "Cranberry"
My mechanic said don't bother, the rotors are cheaper than his time to turn them. Said axles are getting close, to clean and repack both ends, get the boots back on, just barely cheaper to have him do it. Perhaps in a big shop where you can get someone else to do the cleaning, but not small independents.
Also, it depends on location. An urban area with its higher labor rates vs a rural area with much lower labor rates. My biggest concern on those cheap rotors is are they from China? I'd rather spend more money paying a local machinist to redo the rotors than waste money on Chinese crap.
 

TCBinaflash

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Location
Chagrin Falls, OH
TDI
2012 Golf TDI
Yes, although we really should specify I guess WHICH 2.5L.... and my 2.5L won't ever suffer any chain carnage (it has a proper belt :p ).

I was speaking of the DOHC gasoline I5 as sold in the A5 cars, some later New Beetles, some NCS Jettas and NMS Passats, and some current style Beetles.

There are about 6 or 7 different engine codes just for those cars mentioned, and they do not all use the exact same parts. The earlier engines with usually the 3-digit engine codes (BGP, BGQ, BPS, etc.) are the more problematic ones. The later engines (CBUA, CBTA) have the improved parts.

Volkswagen has also sold a few other 2.5L engines. There are many 5cyl TDI engine codes that displace 2.5L, of several totally different families, as well as a VR5 engine, and the above mentioned 2.5L gasser I5 in my T4 Eurovan.

Thanks for all that. I'm shopping now in the background of all this and that is super helpful for me personally.

I'm trying hard not to leave VW, but I don't want another CR TDI experience like this (even barring the scandal). DPF, EGR, HPFP. Just too ridiculous.

Also, the chain on our 2009 Tiguan slipped at 80k miles and boat anchored the engine. So, I'm pretty jaded right now.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Thanks for all that. I'm shopping now in the background of all this and that is super helpful for me personally.

I'm trying hard not to leave VW, but I don't want another CR TDI experience like this (even barring the scandal). DPF, EGR, HPFP. Just too ridiculous.

Also, the chain on our 2009 Tiguan slipped at 80k miles and boat anchored the engine. So, I'm pretty jaded right now.

Yep, we have a 2009 Tiggy here right now getting a new engine thanks to the chain drive. VAG cannot make chain driven camshafts that last. Period. They just cannot seem to do it, and they are frightfully expensive both in parts AND labor to replace, and that is assuming it actually gives you some sort of warning first before it blows up and completely destroys the engine.

Belts are far superior in Volkswagen engines in that regard. They just work, and you replace them at the specified intervals. Easy peasy.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
Also, it depends on location. An urban area with its higher labor rates vs a rural area with much lower labor rates. My biggest concern on those cheap rotors is are they from China? I'd rather spend more money paying a local machinist to redo the rotors than waste money on Chinese crap.
I think it depends on the brand, but they really aren't pocketbook busters. actually read up on this exact subject when I had my Beetle TDI before I decided to cut my losses and sell it (it needed new brakes, rotors, and about $5000 of other crap done to it). I would like to say the difference between quality european rotors vs crap chinese ones was maybe 20-30 bucks a pop. I personally would rather have the piece of mind from a new rotor over getting an old one turned.
 

Jeta Life

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Location
NJ & North Pocono
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI DSG Auto
I respectfully disagree. Timing chains are a lot better than timing belts, IMO.My 124 300D was a 1991 and I have sold it at 340 000 miles with no real usage on the chain, never adjusted. Sale took place in 2012. I do know that there is a difference between Benz and VW in terms of quality, but nothing to warrant any fears on a 10 yrs old engine with a chain.
I'm a big fan of Mercedes diesels, found a video of the 1991 300D. Must of been tough to let that car go. Nice car, solid build quality that never seems to age. MBs are classic but when they do break down its great to know a guru.

Here's the one minute YouTube video :

http://youtu.be/fzvgQPK0Nw8
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
Yep, we have a 2009 Tiggy here right now getting a new engine thanks to the chain drive. VAG cannot make chain driven camshafts that last. Period. They just cannot seem to do it, and they are frightfully expensive both in parts AND labor to replace, and that is assuming it actually gives you some sort of warning first before it blows up and completely destroys the engine.

Belts are far superior in Volkswagen engines in that regard. They just work, and you replace them at the specified intervals. Easy peasy.
While on this subject - are chains in general any better than belts on other makes of vehicles? Some of my friends rant and rave because they don't need to change the belt, but I still don't trust them. And wouldn't they need to be lubed up every so often?
 
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