Amsoil In this Thread only

1heavyfoot said:

... Based upon a suggestion in this thread I plan to get it tested at 5,000 & perhaps 7,500 intervals just to be positive it is holding up for a full 10K interval. Maybe I can even contribute something worthwhile by posting the results.

Does this sound like a prudent enough move, considering I don't feel like driving the 15 miles to return the 6 bottles I have in hand???

If I remember correctly it cost something like $16 to have the testing done?

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the Valvoline 5w-40 has been used in 2003 and prior TDIs for many moons (it's its 50501 applicability - 2004 and later TDIs - that some are questioning). if it were my TDI, i would test at 5k and 10k - with the expectation that it will perform very well over 10k OCIs.

cheers!

Simply do a VOA on the Valvoline product...it's pretty easy to see if they are using a VW 505.01 type additive chemistry. Keep in mind that VW 505.01 is more of a recipe than a performance spec and the add packs of all these formulations are extremely close in terms of chemical limits.

TS

DEO at 5000 Miles

First milestone - 5063 miles.


From Lubrizol:


VOA



UOA History

1997 B4V, lots of miles. Bosio sprint 520 nozzles, rebuilt injection pump. EGR cooler delete. Stock EGR adaptation. All else stock. Primarily ULSD. AMSOIL fuel additives.

From the bottom up:

225608: AMSOIL HDD 5W-30. This sample still shows wear from an earlier airbox leak.
106656: AMSOIL AFL 5W-40 Euro (reformulated 505.01) first half. AMSOIL EaO oil filter. WIX air filter. No add oil.
148568: Last half of the AFL duration test. No filter change. Total add-oil 3/4 quart. (Don't do this without oil analysis. This was an intentional torture test.)
272295: First run with DEO. AMSOIL EaO oil filter. WIX air filter sealed in with RTV. Airbox was out for serpentine belt tensioner shaft cleaning/greasing. No add oil.



Andy

cool graph.

re the UOA:

• could there be an air intake system leak somewhere other than the air filter seal? (VOA Si=5 UOA Si=16)
• even with relatively high soot for 5k of 1.46%, viscosity dropped from 15.19 to 13.75. if these numbers are accurate, that's considerable shearing and soot loading for 5k.
• it would be impressive if this oil could keep wear in check with the soot climbing at this rate. if Fe wear stays linear (46ppm @ 10k miles) i personally will be impressed.

i look forward to seeing the 10k results - cheers!

Andy, why is the Si so high in your engine? intake issues?

Interesting to see the trend comparisons of the various oils. Any idea what was casuing high iron and lead levels in the 2nd half of the AFL? Although no high amount of tin or copper the lead makes me wonder about bearings...puzzling?

Cheers,
Duey

what are normal numbers when we are dealing with a engine that has 350k.

SUNRG said:

could there be an air intake system leak somewhere other than the air filter seal? (VOA Si=5 UOA Si=16)

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There was a significant airbox leak just prior to the 225608 sample - 22ppm Al, 30ppm Si, 17ppm Na. It looks like aluminum took the first hit, followed by iron in the next sample, even as Si came down. It could be more about there being a fairly fresh air filter installed this interval, along with more time spent back and forth to West Texas thru the dust. The interval with AFL was with a well seasoned air filter.

SUNRG said:

even with relatively high soot for 5k of 1.46%, viscosity dropped from 15.19 to 13.75. if these numbers are accurate, that's considerable shearing and soot loading for 5k.

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This oil is designed for the 2007 emission big engines, where soot loads beyond 6% have to be controlled. The higher EGR rates also increase oxidation and nitration. So the oil is designed to keep the viscosity in check while being cooked and sooted at higher rates than a TDI. I expect to regain some of the viscosity as I get closer to 10K and 15K, but may not regain all of it. Note the chart above - shear stability isn't a primary goal of CJ-4 - it stays at CI-4+ levels.

SUNRG said:

it would be impressive if this oil could keep wear in check with the soot climbing at this rate. if Fe wear stays linear (46ppm @ 10k miles) i personally will be impressed.

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I expect it will. I hope it gets better as time goes on, as this is the first interval with this oil and early on it was 'cleaning up' after the remaining AFL additive package. And I think this oil will look even better once that bypass filter goes on-line after this initial run.

SUNRG said:

i look forward to seeing the 10k results - cheers!

Click to expand...

As do I.

wjdell said:

what are normal numbers when we are dealing with a engine that has 350k.

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Yeah Buddy! I don't have any delusions that it's still in the break-in phase, but I hope it's not easing into the breakdown phase, either.

I noticed today that this 5W-40 CJ-4 oil (DEO) has replaced the 5W-40 Euro (AFL) in the AMSOIL Online Product Application Guide for 2003 and earlier TDIs.

The 5W-30 (HDD), 10W-40 (AMO) and 15W-40 (AME) are still the long-drain choices. DEO is a normal drain product unless oil analysis is used.

The 5W-40 Euro (AFL) is still the only recommenation for PDs.

What are the major differencecs between AFL and DEO. Those differences must be relative to the 505.01 spec. Emissions is more likely than added valve tran protection. Emissions, ash, and mileage, are what I see. The DEO is superior to AFL in all but those areas.

So, which is better for a B4 TDI, Amsoil's DEO or AFL? What are the pros and cons of each?

If you have a PD use AFL - if not use DEO

Yeah, I do not have a PD, just a regular stock TDI, vintage 1996. I guess I just don't really know the difference between the two.

If the choice was only between 5W-40 Euro (AFL) and 5W-40 CJ-4 (DEO), and the TDI is 2003 or earlier, and the preferred drain interval is 1 year or 10,000 miles, whichever comes first, then DEO is the first choice in both price and performance.

If extended drain intervals are desired, then the 5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel (HDD), and 15W-40 Heavy-duty diesel (AME) are the preferred products. 10W-40 dual-use (AMO) is also an option.

Both AFL and DEO are emissions-friendly oils. But AFL is designed for Euro light-duty cars, while DEO is designed for US heavy-duty trucks. The Euro specs have stricter limits on additives than the US oil.

VW 505.00 is a very old spec. There is a lot of oil analysis info here on the site that shows that API CI-4+ oils work very well, and for a long time, in our TDIs. CJ-4 is a significant upgrade to CI-4+. CJ-4 should slightly better performance controlling soot, while giving much better cleanliness, and better wear protection than CI-4+.

[image source - Lubrizol briefing, page 7]



Some of the differences between AFL and DEO can be seen in the side-by-side virgin oil analysis results. DEO has higher TBN. (I ran AFL in my B4V for 15,000 miles - I expect DEO will run at least that long.) DEO has higher levels of Calcium (detergent/dispersant), and higher levels of phosphorus and zinc (anti-wear, TBN at least).

What type of Amsoil to use

Cheers everyone! Just got a question on my 2003 Jetta TDI. I plan on purchasing some Amsoil synthetic oil for my car, but I'm not too sure which blend to purchase. It appears there's a specific blend made for European cars, specifically VW diesel cars: https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx
The other one I was thinking of using is the same as what I use in my 98 Dodge 24V, which is: https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ame.aspx
I don't know much of anything about these cars, so that's why I'm here asking questions. I will be sticking with Amsoil, but it appears there's too many options. Also, does anyone know the capacity and type of fluid that the transmission takes? Most likely I'll be running Amsoil in that as well. Thanks in advance!

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/deo.aspx (motor oil) -- this stuff is heavier duty than AFL (Euro formula) and can support extended drain intervals.

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/fgr.aspx (gear lube)-- seems to work good in cold (sub-freezing) mornings

Thank you! I was looking at the slightly lighter weight, which would most likely be a good idea with this motor. The 15-40 would be a little thick, which could cause some issues. Thank you for the recommendation!

Do you happen to know the capacity right off the top of your head? I've got the owners manual, but just don't have the car with me today. Thanks.

20IndigoBlue02 said:

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/deo.aspx (motor oil) -- this stuff is heavier duty than AFL (Euro formula) and can support extended drain intervals.

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/fgr.aspx (gear lube)-- seems to work good in cold (sub-freezing) mornings

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capacity: 4.5L

conversion: (3.785L/gal)

I'm not sure about that gear lube recommendation... I believe the VW's need GL-4, not 5... I would stick with VW transmission oil...

As for engine oil, either of the Amsoil 5W-40's should be fine...

BTW: I hope you're aware that the 2003 TDI's have a 100,000 mile rating on the timing belt system...

All the best,

Yuri.

PS: my usual links for new-bies:

Links:
Parts Suppliers:
www.metalmanparts.com
www.tdiparts.com
www.dieselgeek.com
www.worldimpex.com
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=152185 Bleached Bora’s sale thread
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=97080 Bleached Bora’s reference list

Oil: one of the best oils for your car is the Shell "Rotella-T" "Full Synthetic" (so-called) 5W-40 from WalMart (Blue jug)... pretty cheap, too... (and good for over 10,000 miles before you need to change...)

How-To's:http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=569892 (Wingnut's "how-to" message thread)

Timing Belt replacement procedure (download the file... just for your info, although it doesn't include the water pump replacement - considered essential!!!) http://pics.tdiclub.com/pdf/a4timingbelt.pdf
[URL="http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/5254timing_belt_checklist.pdf"]http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/5254timing_belt_checklist.pdf[/URL] (Oldpoopie’s checkoff list)


Quick-Time Videos:
http://pics2.tdiclub.com/video/cincitdi/oilextraction.html
http://pics2.tdiclub.com/video/cincitdi/snowscreen.html
http://pics2.tdiclub.com/video/cincitdi/fuelfilter.html
http://pics2.tdiclub.com/video/cincitdi/coolantmigration.html

Assuming this is not a PD motor...

I've used the 15w40 before, but it might get as cold here as Spooky. But as stated, there are other thinner oils there that will work fine.

If you want to stay with 1 year or 10,000 mile oil change intervals, use the 5W-40 CJ-4 oil, 'DEO'.

If you're looking for longer drain intervals, I recommend either the 5W-30 diesel 'HDD' or the 10W-40 gas/diesel 'AMO'.

The best AMSOIL product for your manual transmission is the 75W-90 GL-4 'MTG'

Enjoy!
Andy

Thanks guys. Yeah, I'm aware of the timing belt change. Luckily enough, the vehicle came with the owners manual. NADA HBV of the car was 14800, purchase price around 12200. Already budgeting for the $800 the shop is going to charge. Has new radiator and front and rear bumpers due to dealers mechanic screwing up on slick roads. I'll probably stick with the 5wt-40 as this makes more sense. I think that I've found that the tranny should be GL-4, so I'll go with that. I'm going to go with Amsoil as I believe it to be a far superior product.

Thanks Andy! I'll probably go with the 5w-40 CJ-4 for the motor. It seems like the best idea, and I only plan on keeping it in there for 6 months max. I have the bypass system on my Dodge, and I've been changing it every 6 months. Just don't want to screw something up... thanks for the recommendation, I'll be getting this stuff ordered tomorrow. Too bad they don't make a direct fit air filter for my car...

AndyH said:

If you want to stay with 1 year or 10,000 mile oil change intervals, use the 5W-40 CJ-4 oil, 'DEO'.

If you're looking for longer drain intervals, I recommend either the 5W-30 diesel 'HDD' or the 10W-40 gas/diesel 'AMO'.

The best AMSOIL product for your manual transmission is the 75W-90 GL-4 'MTG'

Enjoy!
Andy

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Flytofish said:

Cheers everyone! Just got a question on my 2003 Jetta TDI. I plan on purchasing some Amsoil synthetic oil for my car, but I'm not too sure which blend to purchase. It appears there's a specific blend made for European cars, specifically VW diesel cars: https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx
The other one I was thinking of using is the same as what I use in my 98 Dodge 24V, which is: https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ame.aspx
I don't know much of anything about these cars, so that's why I'm here asking questions. I will be sticking with Amsoil, but it appears there's too many options. Also, does anyone know the capacity and type of fluid that the transmission takes? Most likely I'll be running Amsoil in that as well. Thanks in advance!

Click to expand...

ANOTHER Amsoil distributor?

ymz said:

I'm not sure about that gear lube recommendation... I believe the VW's need GL-4, not 5... I would stick with VW transmission oil...

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Your right, I linked the wrong one. AndyH listed the one I have in my gearbox, MTG, which is gl-4

flyto fish we will be anxious to see your UOA's with DEO - like 507 it is a top choice. I am sure you will post better than AFL results.

wjdell said:

flyto fish we will be anxious to see your UOA's with DEO - like 507 it is a top choice. I am sure you will post better than AFL results.

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Yea, me too. I would definately like to see how well the DEO performs compared to the AFL.
JB

JB05 said:

Yea, me too. I would definately like to see how well the DEO performs compared to the AFL.
JB

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I hit 10,250 with DEO yesterday. The sample's heading to the lab Monday. News at 11..

I live in "Hotter Then Hell" Texas and use the AmsOil Series 3000 5w-30 in my engine, AmsOil 75-90 MTG in my transaxle, AmsOil ATF in my power steering, Cetane Boost and Diesel Fuel Additive in my fuel tank. I have 55,000 miles and going strong.