Why our rods bend.

dvst8r

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Now I am not an engineer, nor did I write this. That compliment goes to nwpadmax from www.dieselplace.com

he wrote:
nwpadmax said:
"...Powder metal (PM) rods are fine for stock applications. Most people think that the powder process (and potential porosity) is the problem, but usually it isn't.

Dmax rods are pressed into a "green" compact and then hot forged. This densifies the compact and most of the time, it's 100% dense. If you cut it up, you may find a pore, but you'll spend a lot of time looking. And depending on where it is, it may not affect the part strength at all.

However, where the problem really lies is the requirements of fracture splitting.

For the big picture view, the vast majority of current auto con rods are fracture split. This saves a ton of machining and can reduce the cost of the rod by 30% or more (and is made much more quickly). The powder metal associations work very hard to push the technology further, and their industy consortiums will push until all rods are powder metal. It makes total sense for stock applications. Fracture splitting saves cost and makes a great joint. So what's not to like?

What's not to like is the alloy.

There was a big fight some time back between the powder rod people and the steel rod people. Steel companies want to sell forged metal rods, but they couldn't be competive against PM (because of later having to machine the cap surfaces). So they went and worked out an alloy that would fracture split like a PM rod. It came very close, but to make a long story short, it failed because of cost. Ingot metallurgy went to war with PM and got its butt handed to it because of cost.

So back to the alloy. It takes a specific composition of iron alloy to work well in a PM application for fracture splitting. There are a number of PM alloys out there, but the key point is this: the alloys being used for rods come nowehere near the properties of an high-strength ingot-metallurgy alloy like 4340 or its variants (which could never be fracture split because they're too strong). The main reason is, they don't have to. They're not going into F1 cars, for Pete's sake, so all they need to be is decently strong and be 100% repeatable when compacted, forged, and split.....with little yield loss.

The fact is, if the rods are bending in compression, we're simply exceeding the yield stress of the PM alloy. You can redesign the rod and put a bit more metal in the right place and help (LBZ rods), but again, you're nowhere near the yield stress levels that can be achieved in expensive ingot-metallurgy alloys.

Now, could you make a 4340 PM (or other high-alloy) rod? Maybe. But it probably wouldn't fracture split, so there would be no point in doing it vs. a ingot-metallurgy piece. So if you want 4340-level of strength, you have to suck it up and pay for all the yield losses from ingot to slab to plate, take all the machining time hit, and voila, you have a beautiful rod.

Make sense?..."

"... To visualize why they bend, just get a skinny yardstick, stand it up on end, and apply a load.

The first thing is does is buckle. It's because its length is many times longer than the dimensions of its cross section. Get this, it's called a "slender column" in complicated engineer geekspeak.

Our conrods are doing the same thing when under load. They're trying to buckle to relieve the stress applied to them. For light loads, if they buckle a hair and stay under the yield stress, when unloaded, it goes back to the original shape. When you hit the cylinder pressure that causes the metal in the rod to yield, then you've got permanently bent rods.

As with the yardstick, the fibers on the convex side are in tension, and the fibers on the concave side are in compression. That's why the convex side splinters when you push too far. The conrod is similar, and although the metal doesn't have "fibers" like wood, you can visualize the stresses that way in your head."
Ignore the refernce's to LBZ or duramax, as it is a Chev site that I gleened this from, but the general principle is completely relivent. Hopefully this helps or at very least sparks some disscusion. :D

The fact that the rods bend and usually don't break says that the PM metallurgy ain't totally crap....pretty impressive what they put up with.
 

TDIMeister

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VW TDI rods are not PM. They are forged steel. This does not apply.

Fracture-split rod caps do not have to be exclusively associated with compacted PM. Forged steel rods can also be fracture split, and in fact most are now. They may use a steel grade that is micro-alloyed for better uniformity and grain structure, but this is not the same thing as PM.

When a connecting rod -- like any part with a certain ratio of length to cross-section -- bends, the mode of bending is by buckling, to be distinguished from the way yield is measured and defined. Yield stress testing is performed on standardized specimens made of the same material and heat treatment as the real part. Such testing is done under tensile loading, although for most metals and ductile materials, the mechanical behaviour is similar in compression as in tension. It should be obvious that tensile testing is one-dimensional while buckling can be multi-dimensional. Therefore the loading that would take a part to bend by buckling is often lower than one-dimensional tension or compression. However, that being said, increasing the yield strength will also tend to increase a part's resistance to buckling.

However, that is only one-third of the story. Another third is to change the loading regime itself or its eccentricity -- how the magnitude of gas and inertial forces act upon the rod in its different angular positions. The remainder to improve the buckling resistance of a part is purely geometrical and has nothing to do with materials or treatment. One geometrical option to improve a part's resistance to buckling is reduce the slenderness ratio, that is, the ratio of the length of a part to its cross-section, or in the case of connecting rods, shorten it or beef up the cross section. Neither of these is a workeable option to a great degree, for obvious reasons... The second option is by designing the cross-section to increase the polar moment of inertia. It is this latter method that we have different cross-sectional shapes like I- and H-beam rods.

Back to fracture-split rod caps'. Their primary function and advantages are two-fold:
1) A fracture-split rod can maintain a much more uniform degree of roundness in the big-end bearing journal. This is because the machining of the mating faces of the rod and cap do not leave a perfectly intimate mating, and machining in general always leaves residual tensile surface stresses. When the cap is bolted to the rod in the engine, the clamping forces of the bolts combined with the imperfect mating of the two surfaces result in distortion and out-of-roundness of the big-end eye.
2)Fracture-split rods also save cost. First, two machining steps are eliminated (the mating faces of the rod and end caps). The big-end eye is machined while the rod is still in one piece, and then simply cracked using a tapered pin that is forced through the big-end eye. The second way in which costs are reduced is in the ability via fracture-split rods to hold process-capability-targeted diameter and roundness tolerances to a much greater degree.
 

Harvieux

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TDIMeister said:
VW TDI rods are not PM. They are forged steel. This does not apply.

Fracture-split rod caps do not have to be exclusively associated with compacted PM. Forged steel rods can also be fracture split, and in fact most are now. They may use a steel grade that is micro-alloyed for better uniformity and grain structure, but this is not the same thing as PM.

When a connecting rod -- like any part with a certain ratio of length to cross-section -- bends, the mode of bending is by buckling, to be distinguished from the way yield is measured and defined. Yield stress testing is performed on standardized specimens made of the same material and heat treatment as the real part. Such testing is done under tensile loading, although for most metals and ductile materials, the mechanical behaviour is similar in compression as in tension. It should be obvious that tensile testing is one-dimensional while buckling can be multi-dimensional. Therefore the loading that would take a part to bend by buckling is often lower than one-dimensional tension or compression. However, that being said, increasing the yield strength will also tend to increase a part's resistance to buckling.

However, that is only one-third of the story. Another third is to change the loading regime itself or its eccentricity -- how the magnitude of gas and inertial forces act upon the rod in its different angular positions. The remainder to improve the buckling resistance of a part is purely geometrical and has nothing to do with materials or treatment. One geometrical option to improve a part's resistance to buckling is reduce the slenderness ratio, that is, the ratio of the length of a part to its cross-section, or in the case of connecting rods, shorten it or beef up the cross section. Neither of these is a workeable option to a great degree, for obvious reasons... The second option is by designing the cross-section to increase the polar moment of inertia. It is this latter method that we have different cross-sectional shapes like I- and H-beam rods.

Back to fracture-split rod caps'. Their primary function and advantages are two-fold:
1) A fracture-split rod can maintain a much more uniform degree of roundness in the big-end bearing journal. This is because the machining of the mating faces of the rod and cap do not leave a perfectly intimate mating, and machining in general always leaves residual tensile surface stresses. When the cap is bolted to the rod in the engine, the clamping forces of the bolts combined with the imperfect mating of the two surfaces result in distortion and out-of-roundness of the big-end eye.
2)Fracture-split rods also save cost. First, two machining steps are eliminated (the mating faces of the rod and end caps). The big-end eye is machined while the rod is still in one piece, and then simply cracked using a tapered pin that is forced through the big-end eye. The second way in which costs are reduced is in the ability via fracture-split rods to hold process-capability-targeted diameter and roundness tolerances to a much greater degree.
The PD's trapezoidal piston and connecting rod design also assists in spreading out the force of the combustion cycle pressures due to the increased contact surface area over the conventional parallelogram-shaped design. Would this trapezoidal design assist in rod strength or would it actually create more stress on the rod itself? Although some very experienced ones here don't agree, I kinda still think the head studs in place of the factory stretch bolts would hammer the rods worse in the area of super high boost pressures due to heavy mods which would therefore eliminate the cussion effect in extreme, perfect storm situations. Later!
 

TDIMeister

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Connecting rods are trapezoidal for a couple of reasons, but probably not what most people think it's for: One is that is allows more reinforcing material and triangulation between the piston crown and pin where it's critical for strength.

The second is based on the fact that in a low-speed, high BMEP engine like in a Diesel, compressive gas-pressure forces dominate over tensile inertial forces. Trapezoidal small ends allow more bearing area on the con rod small end to support the lower part of the small-end eye where it's more needed (due to gas forces) and less in the upper part where it's not so crucial for a low-revving engine (inertial forces). Conversely, with a tapered piston pin bore, there more supportive bearing area on the top where it's directly transferring the gas forces from the piston, and less on the bottom that is subject to lower inertial loads. This optimizes stresses, bearing friction losses and reduces reciprocating mass. These components are so finely optimized that even seemingly small gains here are exploited.
 

TDIRyan

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Does the Chevy board know about how weak the rods are compared to other diesels? The thickness of the rods is a huge difference between the 3 main manufacturers of diesel pickups. As you can see, the Ram has the Cummins, which is the most industrial-built engine.

From left to right: Duramax, Powerstroke, Cummins
 

TDIMeister

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TDIRyan said:
Does the Chevy board know about how weak the rods are compared to other diesels? The thickness of the rods is a huge difference between the 3 main manufacturers of diesel pickups. As you can see, the Ram has the Cummins, which is the most industrial-built engine.

From left to right: Duramax, Powerstroke, Cummins
Thickness itself does not tell the whole story. From a glance, what is important the ratio of the length to the cross-section. The Cummins rod is thickest but it's also the longest.
 

LanduytG

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TDIMeister said:
Thickness itself does not tell the whole story. From a glance, what is important the ratio of the length to the cross-section. The Cummins rod is thickest but it's also the longest.
Makes a lot of since the longer the beefer it has to be. Look at the length of the GM compared to the Cummins. I can tell you that many Cummins rods have broken. Not that big of and issue with the GM. In fact the Duramax will make hp much easier than the Cummins. The Cummins can make a lot of hp but you are chaging a lot components and they will break very easy.


Greg
 

shizzler

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TDIMeister said:
Connecting rods are trapezoidal for a couple of reasons, but probably not what most people think it's for: One is that is allows more reinforcing material and triangulation between the piston crown and pin where it's critical for strength.

The second is based on the fact that in a low-speed, high BMEP engine like in a Diesel, compressive gas-pressure forces dominate over tensile inertial forces. Trapezoidal small ends allow more bearing area on the con rod small end to support the lower part of the small-end eye where it's more needed (due to gas forces) and less in the upper part where it's not so crucial for a low-revving engine (inertial forces). Conversely, with a tapered piston pin bore, there more supportive bearing area on the top where it's directly transferring the gas forces from the piston, and less on the bottom that is subject to lower inertial loads. This optimizes stresses, bearing friction losses and reduces reciprocating mass. These components are so finely optimized that even seemingly small gains here are exploited.
If by tapered piston pin bore here you mean the actual profile of the pin contacting surface, it is profiled because the pin actually bends under loading and then naturally rests only on the inner most edge of the piston pin bore. A rounded profile can greatly increase the bearing area to prevent siezure. Through you are correct that it is only (ussually) profiled on the top side where the piston is compressed against the pin during the combustion process. No pin that I know of is tapered whatsoever. Or did you mean simply that the pin bore is longer on the top side of the piston that on the bottom? I've found its extremely easy to confuse terminology here without careful usage.

Is the ALH engine piston skirt shape trapezoidal? Does anyone have a picture? Ive never actually seen one. I'd say the rods are damn strong if people make twice as much power as from the factory without failure.

While these components are indeed finely optimized, there is much room for improvement... though an IC engine can only go so far (efficiency wise).
And havent steel rods been fractured for decades now?

Oh and I'd take a cummins ANYDAY over a Duramax. Theres a reason almost every diesel between 6 and 16 Liters is an inline six cylinder configuration. I dont know how you could look at the above photo and claim the duramax rods are stronger.
 
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TDIMeister

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shizzler said:
Or did you mean simply that the pin bore is longer on the top side of the piston that on the bottom?
Yes, this is what I meant.

While these components are indeed finely optimized, there is much room for improvement... though an IC engine can only go so far (efficiency wise).
They're optimized for the criteria that the engine group at the automaker defines it. They must withstand the loadings encountered in the stock engine with a reasonable factor of safety, and they must provide a useful life that is also defined by the company. And above all, they must be optimized for cost. That TDI rods can take the abuse of modifications that about doubles the torque, that speaks a lot.
 

KERMA

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LanduytG said:
In fact the Duramax will make hp much easier than the Cummins.
Oh-Oh, better dust off your asbestos suit, they're gonna be a-cummins out of the woodwork to defend their honor now...
 

LanduytG

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Oh and I'd take a cummins ANYDAY over a Duramax. Theres a reason almost every diesel between 6 and 16 Liters is an inline six cylinder configuration. I dont know how you could look at the above photo and claim the duramax rods are stronger.


I don't beleive thats what I said. All I said was look at the length of the Cummins compared to the Duramax rod. Thats way the Cummins is a beefer rod. Didn't say a thing about the Duramax being stronger. Oh by the way I'll take the Duramax any day of the week.

Greg
 

TDIRyan

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I'd rather have the cummins any day. Not just because of rods, but the engine is bulletproof, you just have to watch the fuel pump. The Cummins is made by a company that does diesels! It's an industrial grade engine compared to the powerstroke and Duramax.

as the bumper sticker says: "I'd rather be cummin than a strokin'" and you can keep you maxi too.
 

shizzler

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LanduytG said:
I can tell you that many Cummins rods have broken. Not that big of and issue with the GM. In fact the Duramax will make hp much easier than the Cummins. The Cummins can make a lot of hp but you are chaging a lot components and they will break very easy.

Greg
um, was this you?

The cummins rod is longer because its stroke is 20mm (!!) longer than the duramax.
 

Typrus

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I know it's an old thread. Came up in a search for TDI Con rods.

The Powerstroke is made by International. What does International do? Heavy-duty OTR diesels.

The Duramax is made by Isuzu. What does Isuzu do? Industrial diesels (though in the US I only usually see the low-cab forward ones)

So the argument that only Cummins is the pros is kind of pointless.

By the way.... I'd take a 24 valve Cummins any day. Though, I do love both my 7.3L Strokers...
 

LurkerMike

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shizzler said:
um, was this you?

The cummins rod is longer because its stroke is 20mm (!!) longer than the duramax.
The stroke does NOT define the rod length. The deck height of the block to the crank center is related to rod length. The longer the stroke in a given engine, typically the SHORTER the rods must be. Moving the wrist pin location closer to the top of the piston is an old trick used to add some rod length for a better rod to stroke ratio. There is not a serious dragster engine built today that does not have the wrist pin located in the oil ring groove and some have the wrist pin in the second compression ring groove as well.

The Cummings has a taller deck block, but that is what you would expect from most I-6 designs as compared to a 90* V8.

Can you name the engine these rods fit?

 

LurkerMike

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Those long skinny OEM rods are generally considered to be good to around 300hp, not bad for around 55-75 year old cast iron rods that changed the world:

 

trocar

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brought back memories of way back when I used to just live for HDs' , my rides where '47 knuckle '55 pan and an assortement of flatheads, loved restoring or modding them but was a pain in the butt when it came to assemble those flywheels in order to get everything down to spec. eventually I made a jig so that when I’d tighten down the crankpin it would keep the flywheels in alignment…flathead fords reminds me when I took an old HD sidevalve and made an overhead valve with it… I think I’m getting off topic or just flatout in the wrong forum…;)
 

LurkerMike

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trocar said:
flathead fords reminds me when I took an old HD sidevalve and made an overhead valve with it…
:D :D :D

Ever heard of Ardun?

http://www.ardun.com/index.html

"These unique hemispherical heads were the brainchild of Zora Arkus-Duntov and his brother Yura Arkus-Dontov. They’re rare – as rare as any piece of performance equipment ever created, and yet they still exist (in limited quantities) 50 years after their birth. "





An Ardun headed 400 hp dyno run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrFGe-pLSU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGkkck1WBso

Nothing sounds like an old flatty winding up does it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udYW6bOG3LY

And yes, THAT Zora Arkus Duntov, one in the same, father of the Corvette. ;)

Who says Chrysler invented the HEMI?

Off topic? We are looking at the history of the connecting rod to see how how not very far we have come in 100 years or so, and certainly little has changed in the last 50 to 75 years to arrive at the TDI's connecting rods of today.
 
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Diesel_Benz

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TDIRyan said:
As you can see, the Ram has the Cummins, which is the most industrial-built engine.
It has 6 cylinders while the others have 8. The Cummins must hold 1L of power per cylinder while the others only hold ~0.75L of power per cylinder. It's bigger because it needs to be.
 
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