Valve/injector rattle

dieselvet

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Location
Montreal
TDI
MB GLK 250 4M BT
I changed the timing belts on both my cars last weekend. I have all the tools, Vagcom, etc. The 2003 went perfectly, the car positively purrs at this point. It had a slight valve rattle at acceleration before that has disappeared now.
The 2002 was acquired this summer, supposedly with the TB already changed.
It had an old style INA tensioner with no indicator mark, there's a local guy that likes to use these tensioners.
It ran well despite still being on the old rollers and having the crank one tooth after TDC when it was locked down.
I changed the cam because it had some pitting on the external surfaces of the lobe. the lifters has some concentric circles that could not be felt with a fingernail. I used assembly lube on the cam, engine oil on the lifters and allowed an hour bleed down. I rolled the crank back 90 degrees to install the cam and moved it to TDC after.
I tightened the tensioner, tightened the cam sprocket, forgot to tension the three pump bolts. While running it through by hand I noticed after one turn that the pump sprocket was moving through the oval adjustment range. I locked everything down again, tensioned everything again and ran it through twice.
I then set it TDC, all was well.
Upon starting it up(it fired up immediately) I found it rattled considerably but I let it run to temper the cam and lifters. I then set the fine static timing with the Vagcom.
I drove it for a few days but found it rattled more than my 2003, especially on acceleration, so I used a dial indicator through the glow plug hole to find TDC. It turns out it's about 1/2 tooth after the indicated TDC on the flywheel.
A compression test gives 500-510psi on all 4 cylinders on a warm engine.
I think injector #2 is noisy and the balance on field 13 says +.68 for that cylinder while the others are -.10 to -.20
I raised the IQ from 2.4 to 3 and it rattled less but was not as much fun to drive.
Do I set it to the original TDC and just let it rattle because new lifters just do that?
Set it to the TDC found with the dial indicator?
Change the nozzles?
I'd like it as perfect as the 2003.
The rattle sounds like a TDI when it's driven cold and accelerating
Any ideas?
Thanks in advance for your help.
PS The new lifters already have small faint concentric circles that are light grey/brown in colour where the lobe contacts them. No cracking or crazing noticed. No indentation noticeable with a fingernail. The cam lobes look perfect.
 
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Ski in NC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Location
Wilmington, NC USA
TDI
2001 Jetta ALH 5sp stock
Check adaptation block 4 (I think) and see if someone has advanced the timing, known here as "cage mod". I can't quote all the numbers from memory.

With engine idling, what is injection timing showing in the measuring blocks?

I did the cage mod on my 2001. Ended up leaving it at 33000. About 2 degrees of advance over stock. I tried it higher but the engine was LOUD.

Using a probe and dial indicator in gp hole is probably difficult to get accurate. And besides, you would dial in timing settings using vag com anyway. I guess I'm doubting that the timing mark appearing off is the issue.

Still learning the tdi myself. Especially vagcom. Super tool but not intuitive at all.

Cam followers should be quiet. If coasting in gear engine is quiet, then the noise is fuel knock. Swirlies are normal as they rotate. And they should rotate.

-Eric
 

dieselvet

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Location
Montreal
TDI
MB GLK 250 4M BT
I did another test last night with the dial indicator. While rolling the crank backwards past the TDC mark the dial indicator showed TDC to be the same distance on the OTHER side of the mark. For this reason I'm inclined to agree that there is some element of error with the indicator or a small amount of play in the system. I'll stick with the factory mark for TDC and focus on the injectors for now. The Bosio nozzles are backordered but Peter at TDIParts said they'll be available in a few weeks. I have a set of Smog's nozzles I can try in the interim. Thanks for the commentary.

Vaggom timing adaptation was standard and that's the way it will stay.
 

mrchill

TDIClub Enthusiast, Super Secret Diesel Ninja Vend
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Location
MASS! home of THE WORLD SERIES CHAMPION RED SOX! x
TDI
96 B4v red \ 98 Mk3 green\98 Mk3 Jetta black\ 99 Mk4 Jetta green x2\ 99 Mk4 Golf silver x2\ 99 Mk4 Jetta black\ 97 B4 sedan green\04 JSW gold\03 JSW silver
Hey man! How are you? The two points you found are the plateau point of the piston. The piston will dwell at TDC for several degrees of crank rotation. Find both points and split the difference and you have TDC. Was the engine this noisy before? Also, the injector balance could indicate something else. Try checking balance stone cold just after startup and watch it till it warms. If you find one or mor cylinders waaay off, these is a problem that the balancing system is masking. From injectors to pistons it could be anything.

Also as was mentioned, timing makes these noisy, so check timing adaptation. I know you set the pump properly. What size nozzles are you looking for? If I have them, I'll give them to Peter for you.
 

dieselvet

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Location
Montreal
TDI
MB GLK 250 4M BT
Hey Chris,
Thanks for responding, it's good to hear from you. I'm looking for the pp520's. The plateau information explains the dial indicator findings. Group 13 results; Injector #2 shows +.68-.72, the others float around -.15 to -.25. cold start. I'll check the values as it warms up.
PS The 2003 timing was still perfect since you set it 18 months ago. The cam/lifters are perfect also. It's running super smooth since I changed the TB.
That's why I'm not happy with the 2002....
Ed
 

dieselvet

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Location
Montreal
TDI
MB GLK 250 4M BT
Block 13 cold injector balance values
-1, .47, -.28, .21.
warmed up values
-.30, .28, .12, -.16
The injectors were already diesel purged. I'll change the nozzles and see what happens.
 

dieselvet

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Location
Montreal
TDI
MB GLK 250 4M BT
Nozzles changed for Smog .205's, there's a big improvement but there's still noise. I'd better get a set of properly balanced pp520's on known good injector bodies and see what happens. Injector balance in group 13 is within .1 to .2 variance.
 

dieselvet

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Location
Montreal
TDI
MB GLK 250 4M BT
Update,
Continued improvement, added Liqui Moly tank additive and the car is running really well now. I may have had a bad batch of fuel or some injector fouling that coincided with ther cam/lifter and belt change. I'll install a new set of pp520's when they arrive. Thanks again to Chris, Eric and Dominic for their help.
 

dieselvet

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Location
Montreal
TDI
MB GLK 250 4M BT
Further and, hopefully, final update,
Chill took the car out last weekend and thrashed it until it puked a code for an intermittent fuel stop solenoid problem. Changed the solenoid, changed/cleaned the nozzles/injectors; it runs great now. Diesel purged my 11mm pump and it has quietened considerably also. Injector balance is around .05 difference between cylinders. Thanks for all the help.
 
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