Uoa 507.00

wjdell

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UOA history 06 1.9 TDI PD

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]UOA's start @ 10 K
1 Motul Specific 505.01 5W40 GEN I -- oil & filter [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Motul Specific 505.01 5W40 GEN I -- [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]oil [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 Amsoil AFL 505.01 5W40 GEN II ----- oil & filter[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 VW LL III 504/407 5W30 --- oil [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- DRF count this OCI [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 5 VW LL III 504/507 5W30 --- oil & filter
6
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]VW LL III 504/507 5W30 --- oil [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]& filter
7 S9000 CJ4 505.01 5W40 -- oil & filter & DG Amsoil BP90
8
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]S9000 CJ4 505.01 5W40 -- 4 qt oil only 6 qt system (projection in red)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ave mpg ---- 42.5 -- 43.0 --- 43.0 --- 43.0 ---- 43.2 --- 43.0 ---- 42.9 --- 42.9 -- 42.8[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hours / oil --- 132 --- 131 ---- 100 --– 103 ---- 150 ----- 184 ---- 132 --- 216 ---- 225[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Miles / oil -- 5009 -- 5000 -- 4000 -- 4000 --- 6021 --- 7001---- 5178 -- 8140 -- 10600
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Fe - 24 - 24 - 22 – 22 -- 15 - 17 ---- 9 -- 16 -- 21[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Cr --- 1 –- 1 -– 0 --- 0 ---- 0 -- 0 ----- 1 --- 0 --- 1
Ni --- 1 –- 1 –- 0 --- 0 ---- 0 -- 0 ----- 3 --- 0 --- 0[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Al --- 4 -– 4 –- 3 --- 2 ---- 4 -- 4 ----- 1 --- 4 --- 4
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Cu -- 3 -– 3 -– 2 --- 3 ---- 4 -- 4 ----- 3 --- 4 --- 4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Pb -- 2 -– 2 -– 2 --- 2 ---- 3 -- 6 ----- 3 --- 4 --- 5[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sn – 0 –- 0 –- 1 --- 0 ---- 1 -- 1 ----- 2 --- 1 --- 1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Si --- 4 –- 6 -– 5 --- 6 ---- 3 -- 4 ---- 10 -- 9 --- 9[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Na - 15 – 9 -– 7 --- 8 ---- 3 -- 2 ------ 9 -- 9 --- 6[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]K ---- 1 -– 2 -– 1 --- 2 ---- 1 -- 3 ----- 3 --- 3 --- 3[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Fuel Vol --- < .5% - <.5% - <.5% - <.5% - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<.5% - <.5%[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] - <.5%[/FONT] - <.5% - <.5%
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Soot Vol --- <.1% - <.1% - <.1% - <.1% -- [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<.1%[/FONT] - .1% ---- <.1% - <.1% - <.1%
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Vis 100C --- 13.4 –- 13.2 --- 13.1 –- 11.5 -- 11.3 -- 11.5 ---- 14.1 --- 14.2 -- 14.3[/FONT]
TBN ----------- N/A --- N/A ---- N/A --- 4.88 -- N/A --- N/A ----- 7.02 --- 6.3 --- N/A

Direct Read Ferrography @ 593 hours 23,500 mi.
110 large > 5 micron - 43 small < 5 micron
Wear Particle Concentration - WPC = 153
Wear Severity Index - WSI = 67
Ratio 2.28 to 1 - Any # exceeding 5 to 1 is considered high enough to warrant further testing.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Schaeffer S9000 5W40 CJ4 505.01[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]VOA -- / --- UOA @ 1315 miles w/8.5 hrs on bypass filter[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Fe -------------- 1 ------------- 4
Al --------------- 0 ------------- 0
Cu -------------- 0 ------------- 2
Pb -------------- 0 ------------- 1
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Si ------------- 10 ----------- 13
Na -------------- 5 ------------- 9
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Mg ---------- 944 ---------- 711[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ca ---------- 1254 ------- 1249[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]P ----------- 1110 -------- 1066[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Zn ---------- 1184 -------- 1238[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Vis 100C - 15.7 -------- 14.4
PQ ---------- N/A ------------ 7 ------ 1 @5178 miles thats amazing

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ISO Code 22/21/15
4 micron ~~ 37,645
6 micron ~~ 18,237
10 micron ~~ 3,155
14 micron ~~~ 277
21 micron ~~~~ 29
38 micron ~~~~~ 2
70 micron ~~~~~ 0
100 micron ~~~~ 0

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]VOA - VW LLIII #G052195M2 VOA[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Al ~~ 3[/FONT]
Si ~~ 1
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Na ~~ 3
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Mg ~~ 5[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ca ~ 1449[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]P ~~ 528[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Zn ~~ 589[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Vis 100C ~ 12.2[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Oxidation ~ 15.00 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Nitration ~ 11.0[/FONT]
 
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Diesel Addict

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I think your Fe count is fairly low and certainly nothing to worry about. I can't say I'm surprised about the 507 results. It seems like the oil is doing a good job, but it also seems like there are many other oils out there that will do the job equally well. The small differences in ppm are probably within the margin of error. I'm starting to think the actual performance differences between different brands and certifications of oils are probably not as large as many people make them out to be.
 

dieseldorf

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wj, I think you've got to run a few change intervals with the new product prior to drawing any conclusions.
 

wjdell

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Your correct DD - and in all fairness this interval was from June to Sept and the temps were the highst since I have lived here, one week it was 100F 3 days in a row in August. The A/C was on 3 constant, mileage was down only a bit so the oil actually was better as far as MPG. The short interval is deceptive and that is over now I just wanted to keep things even with the last 505.01. The oil did fine I guess I was just hoping for those super low numbers. I think the next UOA with SLX III will be a better example. I did the FERRO but am not sure if those counts are POOR, FAIR, GOOD or EXCELLENT. I am not draining this oil yet so it will be a long time before I can post my next UOA 150 hours.
 
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Diesel Addict

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I don't understand why you were expecting "super low numbers". Is it because of all the 507 hype on this forum? Looking at your prior numbers, I think your UOA results are very consistent regardless of the oil. If I were you I wouldn't expect drastically different results on your next UOA, otherwise you're just asking for another disappointment. I don't know about the ferro numbers, but the spectrographic Fe looks good to me. I wish mine were that low.
 

wjdell

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DA don't be so quick to jump the gun. The data is inconclusive at this point. This was a flush for me as I only added 4 lt of 507. So there was quite a bit of 505.01 still in there. I knew I would not get it all out. 22 ppm Fe at 4k may only be 30 ppm Fe at 8k, thats under the national average of 37. The number 37 is based on the older engines not PD's, so in fact my numbers may be excellent. The 30 oz or so of 505.01 may have hurt this reading. Stay objective till we have more data. There are lots of reasons for PD owners to be excited about 507. The low ash is a big blessing for our rings. I know it will be some time but I am sure we will see a very good UOA at 150 hours, Feb or Mar of next year. It will be mostly 507 as the second run, I am coming into winter so less AC time, mileage will go back up also.
 

rjr311

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wjdell said:
DA don't be so quick to jump the gun. The data is inconclusive at this point. This was a flush for me as I only added 4 lt of 507. So there was quite a bit of 505.01 still in there. I knew I would not get it all out. 22 ppm Fe at 4k may only be 30 ppm Fe at 8k, thats under the national average of 37. The number 37 is based on the older engines not PD's, so in fact my numbers may be excellent. The 30 oz or so of 505.01 may have hurt this reading. Stay objective till we have more data. There are lots of reasons for PD owners to be excited about 507. The low ash is a big blessing for our rings. I know it will be some time but I am sure we will see a very good UOA at 150 hours, Feb or Mar of next year. It will be mostly 507 as the second run, I am coming into winter so less AC time, mileage will go back up also.
I see you have an `06. Do you run Bio ?

I have an `04 passat wagon and run B70 or greater and am going to be interested to see my 10K uoa w/ Elf 507 and how it compares to those w/straight dino or bio.

robert
 
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Diesel Addict

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wjdell, I don't consider myself to be jumping the gun here. In fact if you look at my previous posts I've been pretty neutral about the 507 standard, neither condemning it nor praising it, and these 2 UOA's that we're discussing right now have not changed my stance one way or another. Why would the low ash be a blessing for our rings? I think the low ash is primarily for newer catalysts and particulate filters. In the engine you need some ash to keep things clean because the ash actually is part of the oil detergents and it's not really the type of ash you find in a cigarette tray.:) All I'm really saying is don't get all worked up over a few ppm. I bet your PD can't really tell the difference between a 505.01 and a 507.00 oil and doesn't care which one you feed it.
 
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wjdell

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I still feel that 507 is a superior oil to 505.01, although there really is no proof at this time. I am not losing sleep over my UOA its a good UOA. The UOA is not my best but I feel the 507 will give me my best UOA and I will show this come Feb of 2008. The national average is 4.4 ppm Fe per k. So I want to achieve a number that is lower. I think its my fault the UOA does not reflect better than previous. I did not drain my preluber and I did not change the filter. I did not think that additve clash would be a issue but maybe I am wrong. I also thought no matter how much I drained it would not get all the 505.01 out and I figured on the second change it would be better. I will change the filter and drain the preluber this time. I will give SLX III two more trys and if I do not get better numbers I will consider going back to a 505.01. Ash is a double edge sword and the less ash the better. Just compare car oils to aircraft piston engines which have a very high ash, they also are rebuilt very often when compared to car engines.
 

Diesel Addict

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You are correct that ash is a double edge sword. Too much or too little is bad. The 507 oils appear to be pushing the lower limit. Don't get me wrong, I too think you should do at least one more 507 UOA, but I don't think additive clash is an issue here. The 507 oils, like any other oil, don't have any alien ingredients that will react with our Earthly oils. I have yet to see any oil that's not compatible with another one. Wear numbers don't just depend on the oil used. The individual engine and driving conditions play a big role too.
 

JB05

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DA, I share your feelings toward the lower ash standard. I would think the harsher urban environments that many here see (lots of stop-n-go)
demand a slightly higher SAPS to better protect the engine.
Wj, thanx for sharing your frequent UOA's. Not sure what you mean by Ferro.
 

wjdell

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Well the Ferro is a Fe count only of particles that would not be detected by Spectro. They say that if this count triggers a alarm then you should do the full test 100USD. They said nothing about the level being high or low. I was hoping that someone with some experience with these counts would chime in and let us know if this count is excellent good or fair. I know its not poor because Polaris would have jumped to get me to test further. I can tell you that my DSG was cleaner at 34/19.

You are all welcome for the UOA's. The only way I can justify the cost is by sharing with the forum. I am comfortable I have a good motor that is wearing well. I will be doing only 150 hours + after this. If castrol is the oil I will be using permanent, then I will start skipping to every other or third OC. I will test everydrain of the DSG.
 

SUNRG

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fwiw - i personally would not attribute the Castrol 507 results to anything other than the Castrol 507 product. if VW dealers are selling Castrol 507 for $6 and change, and Mobil, ELF, etc. are in the $10 ballpark... there's at least a chance that higher cost is correlated with higher performance. but, let's let the UOAs do the talking ;).
 

wjdell

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Maybe, but then that does not say to much for VAG's testing then does it. Its 507 oil and I doubt that Elf or Mobil spent a large margin more than neccessary to exceed the spec. I think you will find Mobil and Castrol have more in common than Elf, including B and Mo..
 

Diesel Addict

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What SUNRG said sounds reasonable especially if Mobil's 507 oil is not just a 507 oil but is for other applications as well. VW just sets the minimum performance specs. It's up to each oil manufacturer to decide how far to go beyond that spec. Personally I'd choose a Mobil1 oil over Castrol any day.
 

SUNRG

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wjdell said:
Maybe, but then that does not say to much for VAG's testing then does it...
OEM approvals ensure minimum performance and formulation standards are met.

You don't believe all CI-4+ oils perform identically, do you? Well they don't, but they all meet minimum performance and formulation requirements.

IMHO - the first generation 50501 was a very exacting specification that offered less flexibility than the current 50501 or 50700 specifations do. **this statement is speculative**

as i said earlier, let's just let the UOA results do the talking...
 

mrGutWrench

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SUNRG said:
fwiw - i personally would not attribute the Castrol 507 results to anything other than the Castrol 507 product. (snip)
__. I thought that I was the only person thinking this. My experience has been that any and all Castrol is total junk. I know that other people have had good results -- I haven't. I wouldn't run that stuff in a Ford.
 

SUNRG

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Miles on oil - 5009 --- 5000 --- 4000 --- 4000
i'm glad to hear you kept the oil in. here's yet another page with data confirming the highest wear rates occur from 0 - 3000 miles - LINK
 

nutdriver

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wjdell said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]UOA 's 2006 Jetta 1.9 TDI PD - DSG – 17” VV[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Motul Specific 505.01[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Motul Specific 505.01[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 Amsoil AFL[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 Castrol SLX III [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Average miles per gallon lifetime - 41.4 – 41.8 – 41.8 - 41.7[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hours on oil - 132 ---- 131 ----– 100 ---– 103 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Miles on oil - 5009 --- 5000 --- 4000 --- 4000[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Miles total - 23513[/FONT]
I have read some posts that suggested that 506 or 507 oils provide some mileage advantage. This data seems to challenge that idea. Neither is there any evidence of better mileage as the engine wears in.
 

wjdell

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If you kept a journal for your Golf how many times did you change the oil in tha Golf, what is it 55k. I forget what your last UOA said your total miles. Some of your intervals were short, one was 2k. You still have achieved a very good wear rate at 2 ppm per K. I am still following the same plan I had from the beggining. I just had hoped to have chosen a oil brand by now. I know by 50k I will have one oil and that will be the oil I use no changing types or brands.

Did you flush that engine when you switched to LSX. If you are flushing with regularity what does your extended OCI really amount to. The flushing would reduce accumulation and effect the UOA's. I did two 5k UOA's and changed, I did two 4k UOA's and am now over 20k. I am confident this is a good motor, it is clean, and I will not be dealing with VW for a cam failure. I will now extend, switch to hours, and will test at 150 apx 6k. I still hope that SLX is the oil and for several reasons. I think Castrol will bottle this oil for a long time for VW. Several vendors are selling this oil so availibilty should be good from them as well VW dealers. Mobil is a hard choice when only one vendor in the US sells it. Its a poor choice when Mobil themselves tell you its not available, I have a email from stating so.
 

wjdell

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nutdriver - only I know how much more A/C I used this interval. I know my speeds are higher cause I set the cruise, I idled more than any other interval. This past August was the most A/C I have ever used. My home electric was at a all time high. I also know consumption dropped as I have used 6oz every 5k till this OC. AFL gave better milage than GEN I Motul and 507 is slightly better than AFL.
 

bobgolf2004

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SUNRG said:
i'm glad to hear you kept the oil in. here's yet another page with data confirming the highest wear rates occur from 0 - 3000 miles - LINK
SUNRG:

I've looked at the link. Would you kindly tell us where the h*** the data is that confirms that highest wear rates occur from 0-3000 miles? All I can see are conclusions from conclusions. Conclusions are a state of mind....not data.
 

Smokerr

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We see iron levels of 30-50ppm in standby generators and fire pumps that see less than 50 hours on them before oil change.

You could easily be into the 200ppm range on a typical (10k by the schedule) and not be a problem.

Iron levels are not a huge concern, its the other levels that are more so, bearing wear and excessive ring wear (Chromium, lead, tin, copper and dirt SI) levels.

Iron level unless its a gearbox are not one of the hot button issues for a combustion engine (it can be, but normally not).

It almost seems like the iron levels are like who has the best mpg, sort of taken personally. Its what it is, you aren’t going to change I appreciably no matter what oil you use, and the levels you are dealing with are so insignificant to start with, if you improve it from 30ppm to 20 ppm, its meaningless.
 

SUNRG

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bobgolf2004 said:
SUNRG:

I've looked at the link. Would you kindly tell us where the h*** the data is that confirms that highest wear rates occur from 0-3000 miles? All I can see are conclusions from conclusions. Conclusions are a state of mind....not data.
bob - i'm puzzled because the link i provided has all UOA data from every oil sample listed in a table.

here's a super simple breakdown:
  • miles 0-3000 = 14ppm Fe created
  • miles 3001-6000 = 12ppm Fe created
  • miles 6001-9000 = 12ppm Fe created
  • miles 9001-12000 = 3ppm Fe created
also bob, be sure to take my posts and anything you read on the internet with grains of salt. draw your own conclusions - or not.

----------------------------------------------------------

wj - i think your approach is fine. IMHO - your engine is going to enjoy high performance for a very very long time.

i started out testing in a similar manner - i ran a few 5k OCIs with different oils and compared their performance and protection.

many moons ago, when i filled with ELF CRV 50601, i changed my testing approach and goal. i began sampling every 2k to determine the point (miles) at which oil performance began to deteriorate in my application and operating conditions. the CRV *in my application* performed optimally for more than 16,000 miles.

before the my last fill of ELF Solaris LLX 50700 went in my EGR cooler was replaced, and i did perform a very short OCI to cleans any contaminants or coolant that may have been introduced by the EGR leak and/or replacement. i tested the LLX much less (only at 6k, 12k, 14k & 17k) compared to testing the CRV every 2k - just because i now realize lots of testing up until 12k with my engine / operating conditions doesn't return data of value to me.

the LLX, under IMHO very demanding operating conditions, performed optimally past 14,000 miles. when i tested again at 17,000+ and it was still working & protecting but no longer at an optimal level.

oil in the average TDI does not see the kind of stress the LLX endured. on the highways along and across the Blue Ridge Mountains in VA i generally set the CC on 75mph and get roughly 45mpg. during my last towing trip with a fairly heavy load while running LLX with over 16,000 miles on it, i still set the CC on 75mph and fuel economy dropped to ~31mpg. my TDI had no trouble maintaining 75mph while towing, but as you can see from the FE drop, it was working much harder than when unloaded.

i plan to push ELF Solaris LSX 50501/MB229.51/BMW LL04 to it's limit as well. to prepare for this testing run i did do a very short flush OCI (less than 75 miles) wherein i changed my fuel filters & air filter. now the LSX testing is underway and because of the clean start (flush + new air & fuel filters) i am confident the numbers returned will be representative of LSXs performance potential in my application / operating conditions.

IMHO - it's totally cool to have different opinions and approaches.

cheers!
 
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wjdell

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What I am interested in is a what point - 10k 20 30k 50k etc were you able to get into the 2ppm area.
 

SUNRG

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wjdell said:
What I am interested in is a what point - 10k 20 30k 50k etc were you able to get into the 2ppm area.
only during this past LLX OCI which began at ~63k and ended at ~80k. i'm at 81k now.
 

dieseldorf

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I think it looks quite good. And you have amazing consistency with your fuel economy numbers! That's what the flatlands'll do for ya.

Are you happy with it (the UOA) ?
 

wjdell

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I'm not sure DD. It does look good, but it also appears as though my bearing wear is going up. What is it, does SLX have some Al, Cu, and even Pb ? Is the thinner oil not able to protect the bearing as well as the more viscus 505.01 ? Am I seeing that my breakin was delayed and just starting, Does the newer 507.00 oil clean better and wash some metals ?. I am driving faster and have logged more turnpike time this OC than any other. The mileage is way up but there are three factors, oil, engine has more hours, and heating the oil made a big difference. The Al can't be from the pistons, were is the Fe. I know some thrust washers contain Al. If its not pistons or washers then its my lifters are eating head. :). I know what lugging is and I am sure that is not it.

I think the only thing to do is to continue to use the same oil. I will follow my plan but change the filter also. If the Al, Cu, Pb do not come down on the next test, it will lead me to believe that the 11.3 is the issue. We have seen Mobil UOA's at 12, which is were it should be, or at least > than 11.5. If the Al, Cu and Pb go down then its very clear that 507 is a excellent oil. 2.5 ppm Fe at 30k on a 6k test is up at the top. I know I had at least 1 Fe inherited. If Al, Cu and Pb had been around the projected levels, I would clearly be a very happy camper.
 
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