UAW & VW: Good or bad?

[FormerOwner]

Read this news link... it's pretty intriguing politically and also could affect our VW's potentially...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-senator-uaw-tennessee-vws-150139280.html

 

[TDIMeister]

Watching.

 

[turbocharged798]

Just a few posts down:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=396564

 

[Powder Hound]

I'm just wondering if the VW plant back in the 70's and 80's was a UAW plant. If so, it wouldn't make for good history.

 

[Ski in NC]

If they do end up voting in a union, could it be possibly ANYTHING besides the UAW??? Model it like in Germany and maybe it won't be so bad. UAW track record is pretty bad...

 

[Rico567]

"UAW & VW: Good or bad?"


In my experience, most cats are neither black nor white, but some shade in between. I think that applies here, particularly when it's presented as a false dichotomy.

 

[20IndigoBlue02]

UAW = me not buying a TN assembled product.

 

[tadawson]

I said it before, and I'll say it again . . . very little good comes from the Unskilled Apathetic Workforce. Anyone whose skill set is so poor that they require a Union to maintain a job is someone I hope to never give more than $.01 to! And no, a guy who does a job an ape could likely be trained to do does *NOT* have the right to the same salary as a true professional with an actual skill set!

Job retention and salary should be based on skill set and performance only!

- Tim

 

[RNDDUDE]

Job retention and salary should be based on skill set and performance only!

- Tim

I concur with that.

 

[tuscTDI]

UAW = me not buying a TN assembled product.

Same here

 

[03_01_TDI]

Yet you'll buy a German union made car Why not support American workers


Sure the union has made some bad choices and the employer agreed to it. But without the union whom would speak up for employee rights?

 

[galens47]

Union

Greetings,

Let me start by saying that I am a militant unionist and a steward.

Unions here in the states essentially created the middle class.

Do some unions do it wrong? You bet. Do some companies do it wrong? You bet. Do employees have the right to collective representation? Absolutely.

The best companies are the ones that empower their employees. See Costco.

The worst are ones that undermine employees. See Walmart.

I do not have much experience with the politics and history of VW and how they are as employers. The UAW has a varied history, true.

Those of you that are in the middle class, please turn off Fox News and read about the history of unions - good and bad. Look at coal, merchant marine, long shoremen.

Detroit and big auto's failure (except Ford) has a lot more to do with failing to keep up with the market and making crappy products. Now that they got the message and have made fundamental changes they seem to be catching up.

I recognize that I am biased toward commy pinko unions.

Thanks,

G

 

[air1mtt]

What he said ^

 

[tadawson]

The problem is that 'collective representation' has become nothing more than legalized extortion . . . ask Hostess how well that worked out . . .

- Tim

 

[Ski in NC]

Look at coal, merchant marine, long shoremen.

G

And the US merchant marine fleet was priced so high that it is mostly gone.

 

[20IndigoBlue02]

I am in a union for my profession.

However, for UAW, see the NUMMI plant. THe UAW screwed their members by abandoning their member base. THen they blamed Toyota for shutting down the plant and TOyota had to clean up the mess.

When Toyota and Tesla formed their partnership and reopened the NUMMI plant, UAW since have been trying to get back into the plant.

 

[galens47]

The problem is that 'collective representation' has become nothing more than legalized extortion . . . ask Hostess how well that worked out . . .

- Tim

There was quite a bit more involved in the Hostess failure:

http://seattletimes.com/html/soundeconomywithjontalton/2019696179_what_killed_hostess.html

Sure the union contributed, but the company wanted to remove the rights that the union had already fought and won.

I advocate for workers. That said when a union is not doing their job and following the rules - leaving their employees out in the cold etc. I get really angry and I am just as happy harassing union folks as I am for harassing management.

The Merchant Marine's costs high, sure, but they are safer by a long shot than foreign flagged vessels. Reagan and others removed many of the protections and requirements that kept our companies afloat (intended). Before Reagan all US goods had to be carried on US flagged vessels. It is not the case and not foreign flagged vessels can carry our cargo and our jobs.

The reality of all of it - Labor in the US - is complicated. I wish that companies that call themselves American, hire American, and work to help us rebuild our nation. Instead they offshore jobs and import cheap goods. Every person has a choice everyday - where do you shop? Can the same item be bought from a local store? Is the store staffed by 'happy' workers? Was the product manufactured here?

Thanks,

G

 

[Jetta SS]

And the US merchant marine fleet was priced so high that it is mostly gone.

I don't see any way US ships with a US crew can compete against foreign flagged vessels crewed by 3rd world people. Union or not.

 

[20IndigoBlue02]

Remember the Chrysler workers whom were fired after getting caught drinking & getting stoned during their breaks?

Sounds great that the UAW got them their jobs back....

can you imagine them assembling your cars?

 

[Kalter|Tod]

100% union backer here... I am not trying to start a flame war or anything of the sort but I am a Union Coal miner of 10+ years.... I would buy a product from vw made by American union hands...

Anyone that can step up and honestly say that and American Union coal miner is lazy? Raise your hands.


UNION For life! You can bet your bottom dollar I will support my union brothers.

 

[GoFaster]

My support for any union ends when that union:
- forces a company to retain (or re-hire after firing) an obviously incompetent worker.
- puts insane, dictatorial work rules in place that remove all semblance of flexibility. It should not be necessary to make 10 other people wait 15 minutes for an electrician to throw a switch because no one else is allowed to do it.

I'm self-employed.

 

[tadawson]

There was quite a bit more involved in the Hostess failure:

http://seattletimes.com/html/soundeconomywithjontalton/2019696179_what_killed_hostess.html

Sure the union contributed, but the company wanted to remove the rights that the union had already fought and won.

"Rights" that were not consistent or affordable with the continued existence of the company. The choice was lose a little or lose it all, and the mindless Union greed mentality chose to demand everything without concession, and killed the company.

And had there not been a Union, I don't think anyone would doubt that Hostess would still be in business.

Is unemployed really better than some reductions to stay alive?

Not in my world . . .

- Tim

 

[Ski in NC]

Coal mining in the States cannot be easily moved offshore. Car mfg can.

No problem with a union that looks out for its members AND the company. As the company doing well leads to members doing well. That is just plain obvious. The UAW and some others fail to see that connection. That would be a problem in Chattanooga.

 

[20IndigoBlue02]

100% union backer here... I am not trying to start a flame war or anything of the sort but I am a Union Coal miner of 10+ years.... I would buy a product from vw made by American union hands...

Anyone that can step up and honestly say that and American Union coal miner is lazy? Raise your hands.


UNION For life! You can bet your bottom dollar I will support my union brothers.

...so, why did you buy a non-UAW product? ie your Jetta TDI?

 

[kjclow]

Detroit and big auto's failure (except Ford) has a lot more to do with failing to keep up with the market and making crappy products. Now that they got the message and have made fundamental changes they seem to be catching up.

I recognize that I am biased toward commy pinko unions.

Thanks,

G

It was not keeping up with the competition that really killed Detriot. It was the unions demanding hirer wages and higher benefits than most college educated white collared workers were making in the same area. I have many coworkers that grew up in Detriot area with a white collared father just barely scraping by while the union worker next door had money coming out their ears. Some exaggeration there. From my own employment history, I started after college in 1982 making $17,000 a year. High school graduate or drop outs were making over $40,000 a year at John Deere, leaning on a broom. People laid off from Deere we're bringing home about what I was due to the union contract.

Unions have done a lot of good for the employees both here and in Europe. However, when the union stops caring about whether on not the employer is still turning a profit than it's time for something to change.

 

[tuscTDI]

Here in Tuscaloosa we have both union and nonunion plants. Mercedes being the main nonunion and many suppliers and BFGoodrich being the union.
I have lots of friends that work at both, and I can tell you the union workers are always groaning about work and have the worst attitudes ever. eg, staying on break 45 extra minutes to watch the Bama game "because the management can't do anything about it because of the union."
You don't even want to hear about my other friends who were targeted by the union during the balloting process...
My friends that work at Mercedes are a different story entirely. They may occasionally complain because they're working the night shift, but they take great pride in their jobs.

The coal miners union is not even close to the same as the UAW. There are no persistent safety issues in manufacturing anymore like there are in mining.

 

[RabbitGTI]

I said it before, and I'll say it again . . . very little good comes from the Unskilled Apathetic Workforce. Anyone whose skill set is so poor that they require a Union to maintain a job is someone I hope to never give more than $.01 to! And no, a guy who does a job an ape could likely be trained to do does *NOT* have the right to the same salary as a true professional with an actual skill set!

Job retention and salary should be based on skill set and performance only!

- Tim

I hope when the bosses cousin needs a job you get fired, then you will learn about "performance" and "skill sets". Unions can lead to abuse, but they are vastly superior to nepotism and corporate greed run rampant. Unions built this country and raised everyone's standard of living until the 70s when Reagan and the right wing began systematically dismantling private sector labor. Now they are working on public employees and trying to take the last penny and even the lint in the pocket of the vanishing middle class by pushing privatization of social security and medicare. That is why the ACA battle is so fierce. Graph GDP against median family income for the last 100 years. Both went up together until the 70s and then something happened, the GDP line kept going up and the MFI line went flat to down. The area between the lines is actual money. Where did it go? Offshore and to enhance shareholder value instead of building a strong America. Think about it, you are not a 1%er and you will get screwed too defending these asswholes. Way too many people don't understand why their standard of living is decreasing and they vote against their own self interest.

 

[03_01_TDI]

My support for any union ends when that union:
- forces a company to retain (or re-hire after firing) an obviously incompetent worker.
- puts insane, dictatorial work rules in place that remove all semblance of flexibility. It should not be necessary to make 10 other people wait 15 minutes for an electrician to throw a switch because no one else is allowed to do it.

I'm self-employed.

Because no non-union employer has ever:
Hired a buddy or family member over a current promote able employer.
Gave favored position, raises, or shift schedule to buddies over other employees.

For every mistake a union makes the same could be said double for non-union employers.

 

[tuscTDI]

Because no non-union employer has ever:
Hired a buddy or family member over a current promote able employer.
Gave favored position, raises, or shift schedule to buddies over other employees.
For every mistake a union makes the same could be said double for non-union employers.

Exactly, so why pay Union fat cats part of your salary for the same old BS just from a different source?
Bottom line, if you have no skill set making you valuable or essential to the employer there should be no expectation of "job security" during market dips or when workplace politics are a factor.

 

[dwfdiesel]

not worth an opinion everyone has made up their minds which way to go.

union yea
private yea
Both work if you want it too