Troubles getting wheels off?

[gdunn]

Has anyone else had serious trouble getting the bolts off the wheels?

I had to do it once (in the rain, of course) and with enough swearing and jumping (literally) on the factory provided tool, I managed to change the tire (a rear). Based on today's experience (read on...), I don't think I'd be able to get the fronts off in the event of a flat. (Perhaps I'll start carrying my 6 foot extension bar I made for another situation--slip it over the end of the factory tool, stand WAY back and start heaving!)

This weekend, I inherited a brand new air compressor with impact wrench (thanks to a father-in-law who loves tools, but doesn't know anything about them

). With much anticipation, I setup the hoses, oiled the tools and got dirty. The car was on jackstands and I was ready to do a timed trial. I started at the front, ensured the wrench was turning the right way (a good place to start) and let her rip! Much to my disappointment, the wrench was unable to turn ANY of the bolts on the front.

I moved to the back and I was (with more pounding than intuition tells me it should take) able to get the 5 bolts moving. Rotating 1 tire isn't much good so I stopped and went back to the front. No matter what I did, I couldn't get those bolts started.

Based on experience, I know its tough to get the bolts moving, but I was very surprised that an impact wrench couldn't do it. I was running it at the rated PSI (at the tank--I don't have a meter to check at the tool). I cranked it a few notches higher at the tank, but it didn't help.

I know these tools aren't the biggest/best available, but it still seems to me that they should be able to get wheels off. They are the 'standard duty' line from a very popular and easily obtained (in Canada) line of products (without mentioning names).

The tires have been on for about 25000kms (longer than they should be, that's why I wanted to rotate them).

Why are they so hard to get off? (I've heard stories of brake dust accumulating...)

None of my previous cars had this problem--they all had nuts to come off rather than bolts, does that make a difference?

Any help/ideas on what to do to get them off? I'm dying to listen to the sound of that impact wrench going--its ALMOST as nice as the turbo scream!

Thanks,

 

[jasonTDI]

It sounds like someone torqued them on way to hard when they were rotated at some point. I would not recommend using an anti seize on them upon re-install as it will not compress corectly and cause torqe issues. Either too loose or tight. Clean them up with a wire bruse, take an air compressor and blow all the debris out of the holes too. Then spray them with a lubricant spray LIGHTLY, PB B'Laster is the best stuff I have found. Smelly? Yep, but they will never corrode into the hub again. Again spray, and wipe them off. Enough material will be on them to do the job. Always good advice to carry a breaker bar. I would also use anti seize on the wheel where it meets the hub so it does not give you removal issus down the line.

Jason

 

[Blue02]

Generally speaking,while its fast, it's not a great idea using an impact wrench to put lug nuts or bolts on a car. It's not nearly as as accurate or as consistent as a regular ol torque wrench. You risk stripping lug bolts and ending up with warped rotors. Taking them off I just use a 24 or 36 inch breaker bar. Lots of torque for the effort

 

[Norman]

Yep, ya better get ready to whip out yer 6 foot tool

, and make sure your car ain't goin' nowhere, and just start leaning on it. My guess, like Jason said, is someone overtorqued it on the BONE DRY bolts, so you should be getting a few good "pops" before you're done.

 

[MOGolf]

I get out my Harbor Freight 3/4 inch drive socket wrench or breaker bar and off they come.

Sometimes I accidentally pickup the Sears Craftsman 3/4 inch drive tools. Same thing happens.

 

[MITBeta]

I just had new tires put on my Jetta. I specifically asked the guys doing it to hand torque them (to 88ft-lbs of course).

Not trusting that they had done the job right, I attempted to back off all the nuts and retorque. I broke one socket and one 1/2" to 3/8" reducer while using nearly my full weight (175lbs) on the end of an 18" breaker bar. The math here tells me that these lugs had to have been torqued to nearly 200ft-lbs...

Try changing a tire like that on the side of the road in the rain with the OEM lug tool...

 

[PetethePilot]

This is a problem that lots of VW owners have. I myself cured the problem by treating the wheel bolts to a liberal dose of NEVER SEIZE. It's a once in a lifetime treatment that will prevent this problem from ever returning.
Hope this helps.
Cheers Pete.

 

[VelvetFoot]

I tried the impact wrench that came with my budget compressor too and it didn't work.

 

[ruking]

While this probably will not help your problem, you have probably hit on one of the contributing reasons for rotors warping. Hopefully by now you have been able to get your front bolts off and have gotten the bolts retorqued to 89#'s. Hopefully the overtorquing has not contributed to rotor warp!

 

[TDI_ESEL]

It's common to torgue the lugs to 80ft. lbs. but that's too much, IMHO. I'm one of those "crazy" people who actually wants to get the lugs off in an emergency. So I always torque them down to 60ft. lbs. w/ a torque wrench.

While this probably will not help your problem, you have probably hit on one of the contributing reasons for rotors warping. Hopefully by now you have been able to get your front bolts off and have gotten the bolts retorqued to 89#'s. Hopefully the overtorquing has not contributed to rotor warp!

 

[Snowman]

What is the PSI and Volumetric delivery of your air compressor?

 

[gdunn]

The impact wrench says to run it at 95PSI (when having troubles, I cranked it up to 100PSI, to no avail). The air compressor has a 13 gallon tank, 5HP oilless motor. It maintains 125PSI in the tank, with the output being adjustable (to the above values). I'm using a good quality 1/2" hose (50 feet).

I don't know what volume of air it can deliver is (it might be buried in the owner's manual). They have a dummies' guide that says buy tools which require less air than this number: 5.5. The impact wrench (built by the same company!) doesn't have such a rating on it. Go figure.

When I do get them off, I'll be sure to heed the advice and use some form of liquid lubricant. And hand torque.

 

[Sc0]

The impact guns have an adjustment to control the torque, adjust it to the limit to remove the lug nuts. I do not use a impact gun except to remove things. (electric Dewalt 115V 1/2" impact gun works well to remove nuts/bolts)

With Alloys I torque the wheels back on using 80 to 85ft lbs with Anti-sieze applied on the rotor mating hub. (to prevent corrosion) If you take your car ANYWHERE, they will use an impact to put the wheels on and torque them to a minimum of 150 ft lbs. (it is quicker)

 

[Snowman]

Make sure you do not use a lubricant. Anti-seize compound and lubricant are NOT the same.

 

[63Ragtop]

Our landfills are littered with $40 chicom impact wrenches, including my old one. I bought a $150 600-ft.lbs Craftsman on sale. Zips off any wheel bolt or lug nut as tho finger tight. FWD axle nuts are just as easy. It was an amazing difference.

And remember that old proverb - you can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much CFM.

 

[ruking]

It's common to torgue the lugs to 80ft. lbs. but that's too much, IMHO. I'm one of those "crazy" people who actually wants to get the lugs off in an emergency. So I always torque them down to 60ft. lbs. w/ a torque wrench.

While this probably will not help your problem, you have probably hit on one of the contributing reasons for rotors warping. Hopefully by now you have been able to get your front bolts off and have gotten the bolts retorqued to 89#'s. Hopefully the overtorquing has not contributed to rotor warp!

The CD shop manual calls for 120 nm or 89ft#'s. This is a safety issue, as I do not know under what circumstances that 60#'s, or -29ft#'s less would do! 89#'s is not hard to undo! Will 60ft#'s hold? Probably. Keep in mind that the top speed of the VW Jetta (2003) TDI is in the low triple digits. In my opinion, low triple digit speed would not be an advantageous time to find out my wheel bolts are not holding like they should.

 

[gdunn]

I just did some surfing and found the full specs on my impact gun. Its rated at 250ft lbs. Far from the top of the line, but you'd hope to be sufficient to take off some wheels (apparently not).

It was the stealership who last had the wheels off. Why am I not surprised they overtorqued them? One more reason to never go there again...

 

[professor]

One of the first things I learned about impact wrenches is that the cheap ones only have torque in the "on" direction. I use axel grease on the bolts, esp. the cone that rubs the wheel, torque to 65#. Never had any come loose by themselves. If the bolts aren't lubricated, the torque isn't consistent, it take less torque to tighten lubed bolts. Also put light film of grease on flange, and same thing if you remove brake rotor. Don't put on enough grease that it gets onto the brake surface.

 

[dieseldorf]

Manufacturers quote torque spec for "dry" torque, not "wet" torque. The two values would be quite different and good luck finding wet torque specs. Most manufacturers will also clearly state that bolts are supposed to be clean, dry and free of any garbage prior to installation. I know many like to use anti-seize on lug bolts but it can lead to difficulty when trying to tighten.

Also, VW specs wheel lug bolt torque at 88Ft Lbs (with clean, dry lug bolts), not 60, not 150 and certainly not 250. The spec has been 88Ft Lbs for a long time...steel or alloy wheels.

 

[jasonTDI]

Yeah.....pops of your vertabre exploding!

J

Yep, ya better get ready to whip out yer 6 foot tool

, and make sure your car ain't goin' nowhere, and just start leaning on it. My guess, like Jason said, is someone overtorqued it on the BONE DRY bolts, so you should be getting a few good "pops" before you're done.

 

[mailman]

While I realize that applying lubricant to the threads could result in a potential overtorque condition relative to the factory recommended torques, I also realize that lug "bolts" that I cannot remove could potentially leave me stranded on the road somewhere. I consider that the magnitude of overtorque would not result in a fastener overstress condition, and the thread lubricant/anti-sieze will facilitate removal down the road. I apply a liberal amount of Never-Seeze to clean threads and torque to the factory recommended torque in the owner's manual (IIRC 88 ft-lbs?).

Dam us engineers. In order to attempt to quantify this overtorque, a "Machine Design" text of mine provides the following information:

Coefficients of friction on threads:
Lubricated: 0.20
Dry: 0.14

50% of applied torque overcomes bearing friction beneath head of bolt.
40% of applied torque overcomes dry thread friction
10% of friction results in tensile loading of bolt

Given the above published information, we can determine the percentage of torque applied to lubricated threads as:
(0.14/0.20)*40% ~ 30%
So, lubricated thread friction accounts for only 30% of the applied torque as compared to 40% for dry threads. The remaining torque consequently overcomes head bearing friction and tensile loading with the proportion 5:1. In other words, 58% of applied torque accounts for head friction and 12% for tensile loading.

Whew. Now that the terrible math is out of the way, the bottom line is that the clamping force is increased by the tensile loading percentage ratio, or:

(12%-10%)/10% = 20% increase in clamping force with 88 ft-lbs and lubricated threads.

Useless information, I know. But, with this knowledge we can estimate the torque value required to provide the OEM tensile loading (clamping force) with lubricated threads.

88 ft-lbs, dry threads:
0.10 * 88 ft-lbs = 8.8 ft-lbs

What is the equivalent ft-lbs for lubricated threads:
(8.8 ft-lbs)/0.12 = 73 ft-lbs

Soooo, if you want to lube your threads and maintain the OEM clamping force torque the lug "bolts" to 70-75 ft-lbs instead of 88 ft-lbs.

Remember: Clean threads and apply lubricant to threads ONLY.