Sportwagen Euro-Suspension

[amgff1984]

Hello,

My sportwagen is used as the main family hauler including the three kids and my 130 lb Newfoundland dog. In the original stock configuration it sagged low in the rear fully loaded, so I bought H&R sport springs. Albeit an inch lower, they are stiffer. Still sagged. Then I found an airbag from firestone that fits inside of the sping, and now the sag is fixed. Now, I can't handle the rough ride and need to replace the shocks all around, but I already own a full stock suspension setup still in box minus the rear springs. I can get a new set of european sportwagen springs from the tow package, and these would be more suited for my use case. Part of the rough ride is the 7.5" 17inch aftermarket wheels...

Does anyone have pictures of their setup with these springs on their car?

Feel free to post side shots of your car with whatever suspension setup you have. It will all help me in my decision. I might just replace all 4 shocks with KYB GR2 or Koni and keep the sport springs.

European Sportwagen Tow Package Springs.

 

[mneuro]

This is quite the timing. I just installed a set of the rear springs on my car last weekend. Suspension is otherwise stock all the way round, and stock wheel and tire set up.

I bought these because I have a little 1400 lbs pop up camper that I wanted to tow with the wagon. The hitch hit my driveway so I wanted to raise it up a bit. I saw about a 2.5" lift at the hitch.

I can take a better pictures if needed.

20210712_200447.jpg

• mneuro
• Jul 26, 2021

20210712_200724.jpg

• mneuro
• Jul 26, 2021

 

[amgff1984]

This is quite the timing. I just installed a set of the rear springs on my car last weekend. Suspension is otherwise stock all the way round, and stock wheel and tire set up.

I bought these because I have a little 1400 lbs pop up camper that I wanted to tow with the wagon. The hitch hit my driveway so I wanted to raise it up a bit. I saw about a 2.5" lift at the hitch.

I can take a better pictures if needed.

20210712_200447.jpg

• mneuro
• Jul 26, 2021

20210712_200724.jpg

• mneuro
• Jul 26, 2021

This is perfect! You are so right about the timing. Have you road-tested them yet? I'm curious to know how it handles and if it will make it a difficult daily driver. I've always felt the back end is either heavier than it should be or something that I can't put my finger on. Maybe not stiff enough? So I guess I'm just curious to know if or how it affects cornering.

Thanks for the response.

Oh! Almost forgot! Are those the euro tow package springs? Where did you find them?

 

[mneuro]

They are the euro tow package springs. I bought them from ID parts a few weeks ago. Same ones that you linked in your original post.

The springs have about 300 miles on them now. I agree that the stock set up didnt feel quite right. My other wagon is a 2002 Passat 1.8t and that car seemed much "solid" than the sportwagen did. Tow springs made big difference. Car feels more stable in general. I would say 90% of the time, it drives better that with factory springs, with no drive quality. 10% of the time (ex: gravel roads) the ride is more harsh, but manageable. The new springs are much less forgiving so you will feel large bumps and bad roads through your seat.

As far as cornering, I would say I dont notice a difference. I drive just as traffic is starting in the morning, and go home just as traffic is slowing down. Because of this, I would say my driving would be considered pretty "adult".

 

[amgff1984]

They are the euro tow package springs. I bought them from ID parts a few weeks ago. Same ones that you linked in your original post.

The springs have about 300 miles on them now. I agree that the stock set up didnt feel quite right. My other wagon is a 2002 Passat 1.8t and that car seemed much "solid" than the sportwagen did. Tow springs made big difference. Car feels more stable in general. I would say 90% of the time, it drives better that with factory springs, with no drive quality. 10% of the time (ex: gravel roads) the ride is more harsh, but manageable. The new springs are much less forgiving so you will feel large bumps and bad roads through your seat.

As far as cornering, I would say I dont notice a difference. I drive just as traffic is starting in the morning, and go home just as traffic is slowing down. Because of this, I would say my driving would be considered pretty "adult".

When I got my JSW I took it on the highway and it felt unstable around corners with its stock suspension, so I bought 17's to replace the skinny 16" wheels and it helped but ended up dropping it anyways with sport springs. I drive adult, but I also take advantage of the good grip in the corners... However, I am at the point now where I think stock + rear tow springs are in order. I have all new OEM shocks and struts with ceramic brakes and slotted rotors. I think with that and the tow springs I will be in perfect order for heavy hauling my family and Newfy. Thanks!

 

[mneuro]

No problem at all. Glad I could help!

 

[Zygote Bros]

My setup in this thread...

I recently did a 1200 mile trip with 2 people and full luggage in back and the car had a nice controlled ride. If you have 2 kids and a 130 lb. dog in the rear it will be great!

For best results you must get new struts with the springs. I would highly recommend some sort of OEM Tiguan or perhaps Koni SA Tiguan (a little firmer) strut for the rear.

 

[taleAwaggin]

I think Zygote has a good point. A shock absorber with increased rebound rate should help a lot in avoiding the thud thing some people experience.

 

[amgff1984]

Awesome. I have an appointment at the shop Friday to have the suspension replaced along with the brakes. Unfortunately, the rear springs will have to wait until after my road trip into New York, and I would say it's not a big deal but I'm thinking the extra height will make it difficult to swap the springs in the driveway.

 

[mneuro]

I did my springs in about 1.5 hours in my garage. After the wheels are off, there is just 1 bolt that needs to be removed on each side to get the springs in and out. It is an easy job if you have a decent floor jack.

 

[taleAwaggin]

I did mine in my garage also. Rears are really quick like mneuro says, assuming no rust issues.

If you're worried about extended uncompressed length causing a difficult install, the towing springs gain the ride height thru increased rate not additional length IIRC.

 

[amgff1984]

Thanks! I had my rear springs out to put in these airbags, but these are sport springs and are about an inch shorter. It's good to hear that these just have the increased rate, which explains why some folks say they run them with Koni's on the rear.

While we are on the subject... I had bought the quick strut assemblies for the front and planned on using the wagon springs that came off in the rear, but I found that the crappy aftermarket springs included on these quick struts have a large diameter spring, as well as having an extra 1/4 ish of a coil wrap. I mention this because there was an aftermarket setup on the front already. I thought new front springs and old stock springs in the rear must mean they are sagging, but I think the fronts were just too stiff due to the larger diameter so it was actually just sitting taller in the front. So I found my old springs from my 2008 Jetta, which according to the VW parts website, will work. I found new dust boots and bump stops, and spring perch pads so hopefully we'll be good.

Maybe if it looks okay, I'll post a pic but I am not sure how these 08 Jetta springs in the front will affect height, if at all.

 

[taleAwaggin]

I've heard similarly bad things about "quick struts" from others. If you're lucky the springs will be the only part of it that isn't right. Wouldn't surprise me if the rest was bad too. Best thing to do is get genuine parts and disassemble reassemble or roll dice on a low mile salvage yard VW OE "quick strut" assembly which is what I did.

Spring rate calculation is kind of counter intuitive.. the longer the spring wire is the softer it is. So you could have two springs the same rate where one is longer and thicker steel wire, and the other is a smaller diameter shorter length wire. But it sounds like your quick strut spring is for sure a higher rate being only slightly longer and noticeably thicker wire. Only reason I read up on this calc is, recently went thru my garage looking for suitable springs for my lift. I ended up using some larger OD springs which rubbed my lower shock mounting bolts. So those had to go.. there is a lot more than I thought that has to be right with a spring to make it mount up and work well.

 

[amgff1984]

I've heard similarly bad things about "quick struts" from others. If you're lucky the springs will be the only part of it that isn't right. Wouldn't surprise me if the rest was bad too. Best thing to do is get genuine parts and disassemble reassemble or roll dice on a low mile salvage yard VW OE "quick strut" assembly which is what I did.

Spring rate calculation is kind of counter intuitive.. the longer the spring wire is the softer it is. So you could have two springs the same rate where one is longer and thicker steel wire, and the other is a smaller diameter shorter length wire. But it sounds like your quick strut spring is for sure a higher rate being only slightly longer and noticeably thicker wire. Only reason I read up on this calc is, recently went thru my garage looking for suitable springs for my lift. I ended up using some larger OD springs which rubbed my lower shock mounting bolts. So those had to go.. there is a lot more than I thought that has to be right with a spring to make it mount up and work well.

You are not kidding!

Typically I work on my own cars, but since I bought my condo it has been very hard to work on my own stuff. The two shops I regularly use were either not willing to use "customer supplied" parts, or gone away on vacation. So I decided to use this small shop on the main road that has been in the family for 3 generations. They gave me some BS line about quick struts locknut damaging the threads and it's normal for them to use quick struts and not just the shock... I was like "ohh okay" but we all know this was a complete line of BS. I think he doesn't have a spring compressor or something and didn't want to deal with it. He was able to transfer over the bags for the rear though, so we'll see what it looks like when I pick it up. These could be a good alternative to the tow package springs if one was willing to; A. invest in the pump system B. Manually inflat and deflate when needed. Could be an easy way to retain factory ride characteristics. Most of you here and other threads have mentioned no real difference to comfort though. I'll post some pics when I go pic it up later.

 

[amgff1984]

Wow, Okay. So they didn't put the airbags in. To be fair, I didn't want them in at the first place but they offered and when he called to say it's done, I asked if he did it and he was like yeah. At least I know to not go back! Looks like I'll probably get the European tow springs after all! At least this way I can match the probable increased spring rate and height. At least she rides nice now. I should probably make a big deal out of this, but I think at this point it's best to just leave it be and just never use them again.

 

[mneuro]

Thats frustrating. I refuse to take my car into a shop to be worked on for anything except tires (cause I dont have the equipment to do them myself). I have been in too many shops and heard too many horror stories.

I agree with your resolution, money talks more than anything. Lack of business sends a clear message.

 

[taleAwaggin]

I would give rear springs a shot by myself in a condo setting and I'm a klutz. Fronts are more involved.. at least they handled the more difficult end for you!

So do you do the dog up front and three kids in the back row? Or biggest kid up front, 2 kids in rear row with dog? Or dog in the hatch area? I don't know how to post pics but my fender peaks are around 28 inches from the ground. I wanted it higher but I got to say Its pretty nice like this. I basically wanted a manual tdi Tiguan, but they don't have one in this market.

 

[amgff1984]

He did quality work, but he used shady language and was rather rude. I worked in a shop doing PM’s on rigs in my early 20’s, I’m no idiot. For him to tell me one thing is this way when I know it’s in fact not, well, that’s just being a butthole.

I could do the rear springs myself. I installed the airbags myself. Maybe if it’s nice out there week they come in I’ll go ahead and do that. It’s just frustrating because all of my tools are scattered throughout in the basement. I think I should be able to find them though. At the least, I could grab my socket set from work. I work in a machine shop and bought a cheap Pittsburgh set.

Just got back from being out and about. Got the alignment done, and it’s nice not clenching my jaw going over bumps. I put on aftermarket 17’s that are 7.5” wide, so a little wider than stock. I think from now on, that I’m getting older, I’ll take the advice of others regarding not dropping my cars and instead do sway bars and stress bars to tighten up the car. It’s not like I’m talking this thing to the track.

At the end of the day, I at least eliminated the reverse rake. I’ll have to wait until the next pay period to order the springs, but when I do I’ll update this with a lowered vs stock vs tow package springs.

Thanks!

 

[mneuro]

Cant wait for the update. I seem to have an unhealthy fascination with wagons so I will end up buying another in the future. Its nice when someone can compare a bunch of options for me so I dont have to haha.

Side note, what to you do in a machine shop? I also work in a machine shop. Its unusual to talk to other people in the trade. Most of the VW people I meet work in IT (no offense to anyone).

 

[amgff1984]

Cant wait for the update. I seem to have an unhealthy fascination with wagons so I will end up buying another in the future. Its nice when someone can compare a bunch of options for me so I dont have to haha.

Side note, what to you do in a machine shop? I also work in a machine shop. Its unusual to talk to other people in the trade. Most of the VW people I meet work in IT (no offense to anyone).

Funny you should ask. I have an AS in Criminal Justice, but no interest in working in the field, and you can probably guess why. I do have an unhealthy love for building computers and selling parts on eBay, and I would consider myself knowledgeable with tech, but my weakness is networking and that is where most of the "IT" field does their work. I guess you can call me a tech-savvy hardware guy, but I am an apprentice EDM Machinist, so I basically work with computers and coding all day. I am newer to the field though. I went to a technical high school 20 something years ago and earned a certification in machine tool. Then worked as a mechanic for a number of years before joining a volunteer fire department and getting involved in the fire protection industry performing inspections on fire systems. About 2 years ago I left that field and started in manufacturing again, this time working for a mom & pop machine shop helping with set-up on CNC mills... I just signed up for the apprenticeship a week ago.

What do you do?

 

[mneuro]

That is a super interesting career progression. It seems like the hardware side of IT gets overlooked a lot. We contract our IT stuff out and it is amazing how much they struggle with getting computer hardware specs right, but they have no problem making our network compliant with all of the ITAR regulations.

EDM is super cool. I think you will like it a lot based on your background. It takes a special way of thinking to be effective, and traditional machinist seem to struggle with some of the EDM concepts.

I work as the engineering manager for a 50 person machine shop. We do 3 and 5 axis milling, turning, surface grinding, OD and ID grinding, Wire EDM, and Sinker EDM in house. I started my career as a machine operator, transitioned into process engineering, and now I manage the engineering department as well as spearhead business development. I love working in the shop though. I put in 10-12 hour days to make sure I can get all my office work done and can still spend half my day on the shop floor working through problems. We are a low volume prototype shop, so every new part comes with new problems.

 

[amgff1984]

That is a super interesting career progression. It seems like the hardware side of IT gets overlooked a lot. We contract our IT stuff out and it is amazing how much they struggle with getting computer hardware specs right, but they have no problem making our network compliant with all of the ITAR regulations.

EDM is super cool. I think you will like it a lot based on your background. It takes a special way of thinking to be effective, and traditional machinist seem to struggle with some of the EDM concepts.

I work as the engineering manager for a 50 person machine shop. We do 3 and 5 axis milling, turning, surface grinding, OD and ID grinding, Wire EDM, and Sinker EDM in house. I started my career as a machine operator, transitioned into process engineering, and now I manage the engineering department as well as spearhead business development. I love working in the shop though. I put in 10-12 hour days to make sure I can get all my office work done and can still spend half my day on the shop floor working through problems. We are a low volume prototype shop, so every new part comes with new problems.

Looks like you're the big guy on campus, and that's cool. The guy who has your role in my company basically gave me this opportunity. I think because I know my way around a shop and I'm not afraid of taking the risk to get a machine going. I took a 3 day class with other guys to learn how to use the Sodick wire EDM... So I basically read the book and just tried stuff until I made something.

My benefit is that I am an apprentice, and even though we don't have a journeyman EDM guy, I atleast have the knowledge of an expert CNC guy as well as a die maker. It's really a good opportunity and I believe that my constant tinkering ability and the way I think... kinda nuerotic, was what won me the position over other toolmakers (which I am clearly not) who tried in the past. Time will tell though, and I kind of like the pay schedule, so I'm willing to give it a whirl.

Basically, we use the EDM to make parts for the machines we run production with, but we will start looking for wire work when I am proficient with this machine. We also have a sinker and I know my way around that one a bit, but the wire is priority for now.

 

[mneuro]

Getting close to being the big guy haha. I like to get involved in the whole business and I have been very fortunate that the last couple shops I have worked at gave me the opportunity to really grow.

Sodick is a good machine we have 1 sodick, and the rest of our equipment is Agie Charmilles.

EDM has some really good data tables that can be used to help set machine parameters for known materials. II think the necrotic tinkerer is the perfect personality type to figure out all the intricacies of each part.

It seems there are so few shops out there that can do EDM work, once you get it figured out, you could easily bury yourself in work.

 

[mneuro]

Getting back on topic, we went camping for the first time this weekend. We went to a campground that was only 20 minutes away from home because I wanted to make sure everything worked well before making a longer trip. I took the highway on the trip there, speeds up to 75 mph. I took backroads home. Just to get a good sense of different driving conditions.

The car managed the camper no problem. My camper is 15' long and weighs 1400lbs dry. I would guess I was pulling no more than 1700 lbs with all of our stuff loaded up. The front of the car felt solid in the front the whole time. The rear felt safe and secure, but was quite bouncy. At both high and low speeds. Low speeds being worse, but that is likely due to worse road quality on the back roads. It wasn't unmanageable or uncomfortable, but definitely noticeable.

With the extra weight in the back, the rear shocks just are not capable of dampening the spring oscillations. Other folks on the internet didnt mention this being a problem, so I suspect my shocks are just shot. I bought the car from a salvage auction, so it is always a mixed bag of what is good on the car. I am going to try replacing with OEM shocks at some point and see if that smooths it out. Other factor could be that I did not have enough weight near the front of the trailer. I wanted to keep the tongue weight low, but that may have worked against me.

Other comments, not related to the suspension directly:
Car really struggled to accelerate below 2k rpms. So I didnt spend any time in 6th gear. (not that I went very far)
28mpg average on the highway route
24mpg average on the backroad route

20210730_185712.jpg

• mneuro
• Aug 2, 2021
• 1

First trip

 

[DrGERTol]

... I seem to have an unhealthy fascination with wagons so I will end up buying another in the future. ...

You're not alone -- my wife rolls her eyes when I wander off to take a picture of late model Audi Avant (better if quattro TDI 6MT) when we're traveling in Europe. Too bad we can't find them here. We sail on Lake Erie, and the GOV (er, JSW) is perfect for hauling our sailing stuff around, both inside & with the roof rack carrier bars. Interesting thread here re Euro suspension upgrade. Our neighbors have two JSWs, one with a hitch; they may find this discussion useful, too.

 

[amgff1984]

Getting back on topic, we went camping for the first time this weekend. We went to a campground that was only 20 minutes away from home because I wanted to make sure everything worked well before making a longer trip. I took the highway on the trip there, speeds up to 75 mph. I took backroads home. Just to get a good sense of different driving conditions.

The car managed the camper no problem. My camper is 15' long and weighs 1400lbs dry. I would guess I was pulling no more than 1700 lbs with all of our stuff loaded up. The front of the car felt solid in the front the whole time. The rear felt safe and secure, but was quite bouncy. At both high and low speeds. Low speeds being worse, but that is likely due to worse road quality on the back roads. It wasn't unmanageable or uncomfortable, but definitely noticeable.

With the extra weight in the back, the rear shocks just are not capable of dampening the spring oscillations. Other folks on the internet didnt mention this being a problem, so I suspect my shocks are just shot. I bought the car from a salvage auction, so it is always a mixed bag of what is good on the car. I am going to try replacing with OEM shocks at some point and see if that smooths it out. Other factor could be that I did not have enough weight near the front of the trailer. I wanted to keep the tongue weight low, but that may have worked against me.

Other comments, not related to the suspension directly:
Car really struggled to accelerate below 2k rpms. So I didnt spend any time in 6th gear. (not that I went very far)
28mpg average on the highway route
24mpg average on the backroad route

20210730_185712.jpg

• mneuro
• Aug 2, 2021
• 1

First trip

So that's neat! I was thinking about getting a camper but didn't want to stress the transmission, but this might be some motivation and an excuse. I'd prefer a small hard side ultralight or something over a popup though, but a pop-up is an option and might be the only option unless the lady is willing to trade in her paid-off Audi A4 for an SUV.

I did read that you'd want like Koni or KYB GR2 (Might be called Excel-G in some markets) shocks with these springs, but I am unwilling to swap them out after everything done so far.

While towing, did you use Drive or Sport?

 

[mneuro]

I actually have a hard sided A-frame camper. The first picture I posted had it collapsed. I chose this because if I ever want to go to west coast state parks, they dont allow the canvas pop ups because of bears, but this one is acceptable. It is also a lot shorter when collapsed than things like the scamps. Better for wind resistance and road stability.

I will have to check out those shocks and see if that helps. I appreciate the specific brands to look for.

I have the 6 speed manual. I dont believe the dsg auto is very good for towing. The manual didnt seems to struggle at all, but I can see myself burning up the clutch trying to back the camper up my driveway. It isnt super steep, but steep enough that the car doesnt seem to like it much.

20210419_200806.jpg

• mneuro
• Aug 2, 2021

 

[amgff1984]

To keep the thread going, here is my car lowered and now with a regular suspension. Note that I didn't say factory or stock due to the quick struts I used and the slightly increased wire diameter of the spring.

ORIGINAL ALL FACTORY

LOWERED

REGULAR SUSPENSION (CURRENTLY SITTING ON THESE SPRINGS)

I also wanted to include a photo of my front brakes, as these will help with out heavy hauling. I had an issue with brake fade, which was more to do with worn brakes than anything, but I figured I would go with these because we do use our brakes a lot, or I do, because I feel that these cars pull you along more during braking. The rears are just stock rotors and this is fine. Both front and back have ceramic pads.

 

[amgff1984]

I actually have a hard sided A-frame camper. The first picture I posted had it collapsed. I chose this because if I ever want to go to west coast state parks, they dont allow the canvas pop ups because of bears, but this one is acceptable. It is also a lot shorter when collapsed than things like the scamps. Better for wind resistance and road stability.

I will have to check out those shocks and see if that helps. I appreciate the specific brands to look for.

I have the 6 speed manual. I dont believe the dsg auto is very good for towing. The manual didnt seems to struggle at all, but I can see myself burning up the clutch trying to back the camper up my driveway. It isnt super steep, but steep enough that the car doesnt seem to like it much.

20210419_200806.jpg

• mneuro
• Aug 2, 2021

That's perfect. The DSG is an automatically shifting standard transmission, and not a torque converter type. That is why it might actually be alright, but it still worries me.

 

[taleAwaggin]

20210730_185712.jpg

• mneuro
• Aug 2, 2021
• 1

First trip

That is with the towing springs?? That looks low. I'm trying to figure out what rise I need for my ball.