Performance and Oil use (505.01 or 507)

[SBAtdijetta]

Performance and Oil use (505.01 & 507)

Ok eyes are bleeding from reading... So I am just going to ask.

Those out there running bigger turbos, and more fuel what oil are you running? Have you reduced your OCI's, if so to what?

I have a BRM PD so its 505.01 or better for me and I would like to stay with a 5w40 or 5w30 weight oil, and try to keep a 10k OCI if UOA indicates it is ok with a 505.01 or a 507. Also thinking about a DG bypass filter too. (Really want a 10k OCI if possible) But wanting to reduce wear is my first priority.

Don't really want to use a Castrol oil so it and the VW brand made by Castrol are out I think. So no to VW LL oil GVW 052 195 M2 - 507.00 or Castrol SLX Pro LL03 - 507.00

Recommendations? Use a 507 and just check the UOA's to find the right OCI. Or 507 and a DG bypass filter and check UOA's to find the right OCI?

I think staying with 505.01 is not what I want to do. But that is what I have in now (ELF Solaris LSX 505.01 put in at 30k) so I may change it at 35k and run 505.01 or 507 to 40k then change again with 507.

Options:
Elf Solaris LLX 5w30 - 507.00
Total Quartz Ineo 5w30 - 507.00
Mobil-1 ESP 5w30 - 507.00
Motul?
Advice please, thanks!

 

[Lightflyer1]

I am using bypass and 507 LL3. UOA to see when to change.

 

[osomphane]

bump... anyone got a good answer to this?

 

[dieseldorf]

Oso, a 2006.5 Jetta diesel does NOT require 507.00. People seem to be gravitating towards the old 505.01 5W40 flavors.

 

[osomphane]

Aside from requiring, is it okay to use 507? Does 505.01 work for higher horsepower?

 

[velociT]

Oso, you're the one with the big turbo...

Inspect your cam and let us know how it's working out for you

 

[dieseldorf]

Aside from requiring, is it okay to use 507? Does 505.01 work for higher horsepower?

Sure, the oil is supposed to be backwards compatible. However, you may do better with one of the earlier 5W40 oils that meet 505.01 such as LM or Motul and a couple others still available.

 

[halocline]

I would be very interested to know exactly what the standards are for getting 505.01 and 507 certified. I'm sure this has been asked before, and I imagine VW does not share that info.

In terms of API service rating, SM is the highest for gas engines and CJ-4 is the highest for diesel, correct? So, any oil meeting CJ-4 should be ideal for the PD engine, right? Or is it much more complicated than that?

In terms of choosing an oil for PD engines, to me the highest priority is camshaft protection, as that's the weak link in engine wear.

 

[Rod Bearing]

I would be very interested to know exactly what the standards are for getting 505.01 and 507 certified. I'm sure this has been asked before, and I imagine VW does not share that info.

In terms of API service rating, SM is the highest for gas engines and CJ-4 is the highest for diesel, correct? So, any oil meeting CJ-4 should be ideal for the PD engine, right? Or is it much more complicated than that?

In terms of choosing an oil for PD engines, to me the highest priority is camshaft protection, as that's the weak link in engine wear.

I can only offer my opinion here but in my case, both of my PD engines ate their cams and both of them had the 505.01 spec in them from the first oil change onward.

So I think in the case of the PD engine, a 5w40 or even a 15w40 is the best choice, and in CJ-4 iterations at that. Whether or not you choose a synthetic or a DINO oil is up to you. I am using Mobil Delvac 1300 Super CJ-4 15-40 in both of mine right now.

 

[Dimitri16V]

why not use M-1 TDT or M-1 15W-50 ? the latter has more ZDDP to protect the cams.
Only use oils that are also rated SL . if it only lists SM , don't touch it

 

[Dimitri16V]

I would be very interested to know exactly what the standards are for getting 505.01 and 507 certified. I'm sure this has been asked before, and I imagine VW does not share that info.

In terms of API service rating, SM is the highest for gas engines and CJ-4 is the highest for diesel, correct? So, any oil meeting CJ-4 should be ideal for the PD engine, right? Or is it much more complicated than that?

In terms of choosing an oil for PD engines, to me the highest priority is camshaft protection, as that's the weak link in engine wear.

all the 505.01 oils were CF rated so technically any oil that meets that spec should work in the PD engines. but the latest diesel oils have extra additives to deal with the soot , keep engine clean etc.
The issue is the ZDDP gets removed in the newer specs. if you can find a CI-4 or CH-4 oils with plenty of ZDDP , it should work fine too.
better yet , use the latest API diesel oil CJ-4 and add some ZDDP yourself.
That's even simpler

 

[halocline]

Only use oils that are also rated SL . if it only lists SM , don't touch it

Why? Doesn't SM replace SL? These are gasoline ratings anyway.

Looking over some of the oil analyses it seems that pentosin II (SM/CF) 5W40 has produced good results with PDs. That's what I just put in my 04.

 

[halocline]

I can only offer my opinion here but in my case, both of my PD engines ate their cams and both of them had the 505.01 spec in them from the first oil change onward.

What specific oil were you using, and how long did the cams last if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Rod Bearing]

I am using Mobil Delvac 1300 Super, 15w40 CJ-4 in both of my BRM TDI's.

The 2006 TDI Jetta I bought new had a major flywheel failure at around 50,000 miles, which locked the engine at highway speeds and bent valves and cracked a cylinder wall. That car got a new engine and trans under warranty. The original and was a 505.01 only from day one, done by me at every required OCI. I saw the cam in that engine at 50,000 miles and it was galled bad on 2 lobes and several others were badly discolored and on the way to being eaten as well.The replacement engine has now tipped over almost 30,000 miles and it also had 505.01 on time every time done by me. I looked at the cam and it is already wearing on several lobes. The last change, I put the oil in mentioned above.

The other car, also a 2006 TDI Jetta I bought with 88,000 miles on it, and I have all the history on the car in documented dealer paperwork, and it too had all oil changes done on time every time but by the dealer, and it had 505.01 in it too. I recently completed a cam and top end overhaul on this car, and had the camshaft reground a bit (a brand new cam) then parkerized the camshaft valve and injector lobes and had the bearing journals polished up reall nice, and I used some high zinc package Joe Gibbs Racing BR break in oil for 5000 miles and just recently changed it to the oil mentioned above as well.

It is a test mule to see how well the cam does over the next year or so with the work I did combined with a proper break in oil as well as following up with a 15-40 CJ-4 diesel oil I know to be of excellent quality.

 

[TornadoRed]

The Lubrizol Relative Performance Comparison Tool cannot be used to choose between a VW-spec oil and an API-spec oil. But it is useful to compare VW 505.01 and VW507.00.

http://sas-origin.OnstreamMedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RP/PC/index.html

According to this comparison, the 507.00 is far superior to the 505.01.

For out-of-warranty TDIs, a top quality API CJ-4 rated oil is an option (Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40, for instance). But if your TDI is still under warranty and you want the best oil that still meets warranty requirements, then it's a no-brainer: VW 507.00 is best.

And if you're running the 507.00-rated Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w30, when the warranty runs out then it would simple to switch to the slightly more viscous Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5w40. Both these oils are available from Pep Boys, if you have their stores in your state.

 

[Dimitri16V]

Why? Doesn't SM replace SL? These are gasoline ratings anyway.

Looking over some of the oil analyses it seems that pentosin II (SM/CF) 5W40 has produced good results with PDs. That's what I just put in my 04.

SM has lower limits on ZDDP. cars with flat tappets should not get even close to that oil.
A lot of diesel oils have a gasoline rating too , hence why I was refering to it.

you can't always tell by an oil analysis whether an oil is good or bad.
Personally , my UOAs with M-1 TDT , 506.01 and 507.00 oils all looked good . maybe I am lucky and got a PD with a cam that has enough hardness.
If the cam /lifters are not properly hardened , no oil will save them

 

[SBAtdijetta]

ELF Solaris LSX 505.01 5w30 (Low ash/saps, ESP) is what my cam failed on...

507 oils are the same but with even less ash.. ie NA/additives...

why not use M-1 TDT or M-1 15W-50 ? the latter has more ZDDP to protect the cams.
Only use oils that are also rated SL . if it only lists SM , don't touch it

I would agree here although I don't think I would go as far as a 15w-50. Although I will be running something to that effect in my bike come summer time. Its too bad I did not know enough to use something thicker and more robust like 5w-40 TDT before hand.

^ I also agree SM blows for anything flat tappet even the 2.0Ts with one single HPFP flat tappet lifter and all rockers for the valves... but that is still spec for them .

I actually find this thread pretty funny in hindsight. Live and learn I guess...

 

[TornadoRed]

ELF Solaris LSX 505.01 5w30 (Low ash/saps, ESP) is what my cam failed on...

507 oils are the same but with even less ash.. ie NA/additives...

I don't think we can say, with any certainty, that one oil will protect those cams and other oils will not. It seems more likely that your cam would have failed no matter which oil you used. It may have been a faulty part from the factory.

 

[SBAtdijetta]

I don't think we can say, with any certainty, that one oil will protect those cams and other oils will not. It seems more likely that your cam would have failed no matter which oil you used. It may have been a faulty part from the factory.

I find it highly unlikely that that a faulty part was to blame. I don't think we can say with any certainty that it was a part problem without sending the cam and lifters off to be analyzed. It seems more likley that a thin oil combined, with high temps, a poor design, less than adequate additives, and added performance (more heat), cause my cam to take a dump even faster than most on 505.01 only.

I do still have my cam/lifter parts btw... (only thing I have left from the car actually) if somebody wants to pay to prove they are deffective...

 

[hid3]

SBA, you must also confess you were flooring your TDI quite often (apart from being tuned) Wrong ELF destroyed my cam too. That's why I hate ELF...

Your cam was not defective. If it would be defecive, injector lobes would have worn out first because they're more aggresive in shape/profile (idle, idle and then straight squeeze/fire of the spring) and they see more load than the intake or exhaust lobes do.

EDIT: BTW, the ELF Solaris LSX is only SM/CF!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hamman]

Rodbearing -

Did I misunderstand you? I thought you were saying that Delvac 1300 Super is a 505.01 oil. I hope I heard you wrong, because that isn't even synthetic, let alone vw rated.

Dave

 

[TornadoRed]

Rodbearing -

Did I misunderstand you? I thought you were saying that Delvac 1300 Super is a 505.01 oil. I hope I heard you wrong, because that isn't even synthetic, let alone vw rated.

I'm sure he knows that -- he is using it despite the fact that it is a conventional oil and does not meet any VW requirements. He is his own warranty.

He did not advise anyone else to follow his example. Nor should they.

 

[TooSlick]

If everyone had used an API/CJ-4 spec oil in the PD's to begin with, it's still possible (probable?), that a small percentage of the engines would have experienced abnormal wear & ultimately failed.

The root cause is the marginal nature of the PD valvetrain design itself & the extremely high contact pressures that result between the cam lobes and the lifters/injectors. The VW 505.01 spec lubes were/are in effect a "bandaid" for this motor design, albeit not a fully effective one....

TS

 

[Homo.Sapien]

Was thinking about buying a PD Jetta, they can be made to run awesome. Kind of put off by all the cam stories. Came across some discussion here how in Europe the PD cams are ultra reliable - used in fleets, taxis, delivery vehicles. Almost no recorded problems. In the US a high percentage of problems. Do you think it could be related to our lower quality fuel with deposits in the oil? I know that's a long shot, but the only other variable can think of is bad metallurgy/metal in US cams. Has anyone hardness tested the cam lobes to see if they are in spec?

 

[Dimitri16V]

PDs have been dying in Europe too. Mainly the uprated PD 2.0 150 HP which I believe came out the same time as the North America models.

The internet is littered with stories of flat tappet engines destroying their cams/lifters. and those don't have the cam squeezing injectors either.
Factory and aftermarket cams included along with aftermarket and OEM lifters.
The reformulated oils have something to do with it.

 

[SBAtdijetta]

Its too bad that we did not all start out on TDT or Rotella T and see how far we could have prolonged the situation. Band aid or not I think we would have seen normal service lives out of the vast majority of the cars that did fail otherwise.

 

[velociT]

I'm starting my M35A2C on TDT this weekend, Steve

 

[halocline]

Mobil 1 Delvac ESP 5W40, which is CJ-4 and (I believe) Mobil 1's premium diesel oil, also has the SM rating. Does this mean it's no good for the PD engine?

How about using an SM oil like the pentosin II I'm using now or Delvac ESP 5W40, and adding ZDDP?

 

[velociT]

Mobil 1 Delvac ESP 5W40, which is CJ-4 and (I believe) Mobil 1's premium diesel oil, also has the SM rating. Does this mean it's no good for the PD engine?

How about using an SM oil like the pentosin II I'm using now or Delvac ESP 5W40, and adding ZDDP?

D1 ESP is one of the best oils you could use in your PD.

 

[halocline]

SM has lower limits on ZDDP. cars with flat tappets should not get even close to that oil.
A lot of diesel oils have a gasoline rating too , hence why I was refering to it.

Mobil 1 TDT 5W40, as well as the Delvac I referred to in the earlier post, are both SM rated along with CJ-4

Not good for the PD engine?