OPEN-PPO-TDI or Vegetable Oil Fuelled TDI

[DarrenUK]

Introduction
Due to the lack of a production PPO (aka SVO) vehicle I have decided to optimise an existing vehicle for PPO use. Due largely to the standard fitment of many sensors to the VW Audi Group TDi engines and its suitability to run on PPO (A Number of German companies offer single tank TDi conversions and it has a deep combustion chamber similar to that used in the Elsbett engine) this engine was identified as a prime candidate.
I obtained a 1999 1.9 Tdi Skoda (VAG 1.9 ltr AGR engine) as a suitable testbed. A number of additional sensors will be added and base data recorded for later comparison.

Research shows that a number of engine management variables can be altered. Doing so is not advisable without having a good understanding of what you are altering and what it is likely to change (a way of monitoring affects would also be of value). To get what is necessary will take a careful balancing using these techniques.

Variables that can probably be altered include:

Injection timing
Using vehicle tuning software or eventually chip tuning
Modify engine temperature sensor (may also affect glow plug function)

Injection duration
Using vehicle tuning software or eventually chip tuning
Modifying Injector Pump
Modify fuel temp signal (possibly only increase duration and may affect other variables possibly retard timing?)
Modify fuel plunger position sensor signal

Injection rate
Increase pop pressure (also affects spray pattern)
Bigger nozzles (also effect delivered amount?)

Peak Injection Pressures
Use a bigger pump from a later model/bigger engine – common performance modification (also affects rate?)

Glow plugs
Using vehicle tuning software or eventually chip tuning
Modify coolant temp sensor signal to increase duration, also I think I recall that at least on some models (if not all) they will switch on at below 2500rpm below a certain temp.

Engine heat
There is a standard option for a three glow plug coolant heater on some models.
Fitting a higher temp rated coolant thermostat


Air heat
Add intercooler ‘blind’ (Or increase intercooler size to reduce heat)
Electric heater in air ducting

Egr function
Using vehicle tuning software or eventually chip tuning
Manual modification/disablement (may require signal alteration)
Modify sensor signal or other control (vacuum?)


Position of Injector
Testing has shown a higher injector position (shimming out the injector from its seat) increases NOx (and hence engine temp and/or fuel combustability)

Fuelling quantities at start
Using vehicle tuning software or eventually chip tuning

Fuel temperature
Coolant and/or electric heaters

Air volume
Larger turbo chargers are regularly used as a performance modification
More Boost - various ways of obtaining common performance mod (will also increase delivery duration?)

Before performing any modifications I will be

checking vehicle health - njector spray, compression, controls/ sensors functioning correctly/within perameters.

Adding additional sensors that may include:

glow plugs as ‘thermocouples’ for cylinder temps
block temp
fuel blend sensor
exhaust pyrometer
knock sensor?
Dynometer (or ECU logging power calculations)
fuel vacuum
fuel pipe/injector temp
exhaust gas

All the above comes from much research by myself and others who have generally offered their knowledge to the public domain via the internet.

I think its going to be a fairly involved project and I do have a limited amount of time to progress with this. I am however planning to set this up as an open source development; I will hopefully have a discussion forum up and running shortly to facilitate such development. In the mean time I welcome suggestions/critique.

Best regards

Darren Hill

 

[TDIpurdue]

It'll probably be cheaper and certainly much easier to do this: http://www.greasecar.com/
although I'm not sure if they can send you the parts etc. It is certainly worth and email to find out.

 

[DarrenUK]

TDI Purdue,

I've been doing similar since 2000 but now work with Elsbett equipment which is a different technology, although similar in some ways.
The main difference is you don't need a second tank, just pour the rapeseed oil into your existing tank and drive.
Information from here and elsewhere has led me to believe that it is possible to do a very good job of optomising these engines. Alot can be done with the ECU at fairly low cost (after development) which, I think, would improve combustion - especially for cold starting.

Best

Darren

 

[tiesel]

Darren,

I would be happy to offer my experiences. I recently converted my 2001 Golf using an Elsbett kit. I think the open source project is a great idea.

Todd

 

[GoFaster]

I've got some tough questions. I'll ask them directly.

What is the purpose/objective in doing this, aside from perhaps duplicating the Elsbett conversion that is already available for that engine? Their complete conversion, as I understand it, is TUV approved (i.e. emission approved in Europe).

What is the purpose in applying this research to an older fuel injection system design and injection concept that is going out of production (i.e. distributor pump), instead of applying it to a common-rail (preferably) or P-D (still current but will be phased out in the future)?

 

[DarrenUK]

Go Faster,

I understand why you think my actions are a bit strange but there is some logic behind them (I think)

I work for Blooming Futures who offer Elsbett conversions (we've done a fair few) so I have a good idea of their system which I admire as a relitively cheap 'DIY' system. The range of vehicles they offer is mind boggling. There are a number of other German companies doing single tank conversions some better (and more expensive) than Elsbett others could be seen as a bit shodddy (and cheaper than Elsbett).

The more expensive (eg. VWP and Wolf) use chip tuning which saves on some of the hardware and allows for greater optimisation. I think there is merit in this approach as saving hardware and time makes conversions more viable, margins are very tight for conversions here in the UK.

Having converted some vehicles that were 'chipped' we have had some engine problems and in ironing them out I have increased my knowledge of what the TDi s are capable of, and I'm stunned by what is achievable. Especially when combined with various other tricks I've come across over the years since I've been looking into SVO. I must admit its got me a bit excited (I suppose I am quite sad however - you can imagine what my girlfiend thinks.......). (oops typo)

Turns out that the fault on the VW, a rough tick over and a low rev shudder issue is probably a dodgy VW 'stealer' cam belt change/timing issue, waiting for confirmation as the vehicle has gone back to customer although the chipping makes me a bit nervous, not sure what exactly was done or if it would somehow make VAG COM lie to me??? Apparently the tuner remove the chip from the ECU plugged it into a box in his van and a German man living in Spain provided the upgrade over the internet???? (See http://www.racimax.com/ also search racimax on www.ebay.co.uk if you are interested.) Still I don't know if the UK operative did anything else to the vehicle athough he claims not to have.

Fortunately before these issues cropped up I won myself the Skoda on ebay and through having to remedy a limp mode fault (IP pully position - found after filter change, transfer pump pressure valve attempts) I was already semi-proficient with vag-com and had a better understanding of the functionality of these engines(thanks largely to this forum) .

I would still strongly advise against converting a chipped motor unless the chipping perameters are designed to take into account the alternative fuel.

Why the AGR engine? I own one - got it cheap (£1200) and could not afford a PD engined car (without a big loan that I don't want hanging over me, also don't want to make an expensive mistake). We have a year old taxi in the workshop as I speak that we are converting (Elsbett) that has an ALH, very similar engine to what I have, I've yet to figure the difference.

There are lots of vehicles out there that use this 'series' (ie any pre PD VAG Tdi) in the UK they are everywhere (and worldwide) and the lessons learnt will be valuable, transferable to all these vehicles and for later working on the PD, which I'm guessing with the right knowlege would be much easier to convert. By the time I've got around to finishing optomising the Skoda (if ever???) I'll hopefully be able to get my hands on a PD.

Anyone got any experience with WinOLS???

Best

Darren

 

[DPM]

Might want to PM Aligator

 

[tiesel]

Darren,

I would like to know more about the VMP and Wolf systems. I have heard only good things about them. I don't speak German and there is little experience with those companies here in the US.

Tiesel

 

[Bubbles]

Good day.

I have a Skoda Fabia VRS with 1.9 PD engine.

I already run WVO in my Land Rover and want to in the Skoda.

Is it possible to run even a 10% mix of Waste Veg. Oil in these engines?

Nobody seems to know anything about the PD's.

Bubbles.

 

[GoFaster]

Vegetable oil is a NO-NO in the P-D engine. Biodiesel meeting ASTM or DIN standards is OK albeit with warranty concerns, but vegetable oil is no good.

This is partly why I asked about the direction of research. I have a funny feeling that with enough modifications (probably new injector nozzles and changes to the delivery pump and in-tank pump) it might be possible to solve the durability and driveability issues, but I highly doubt that it will be possible to maintain the vehicle's original emission certification (e.g. will no longer meet Euro 4, therefore no TUV approval, therefore no legal use in Europe ...)

 

[GoFaster]

By the way, with an internet search, you are going to find that some people are running vegetable oil in their P-D despite the warnings. Just because a small number of people have done it for a short period of time doesn't mean that the system is going to have an acceptable statistical survival rate over a reasonable long lifetime. Same deal as friend's grandpa who lived to 95 despite smoking and drinking every day. For every one who makes it, perhaps 10 or 100 paid the early price ...

We don't have the statistical evidence to estimate the life of a P-D running on vegetable oil, but we sure do know that there can be trouble.

 

[DarrenUK]

PD on Veg

tiesel and GoFaster

Both Wolf and VWP offer PD conversions, from what I hear largely chip tuning. Wolf has had a conversion tested to Euro 4 and TUV compliance is the tuner for a veggie TDi race car. I've heard VWP have done likewise but have not yet been able to get confirmation.

VWP are at http://www.pflanzenoel-motor.de
Check out their 2004 price list they were offering PD conversions back then and still are now! Interestingly they offer a 'Billig-Variante' - cheap varient for all but the high power PDs over 1000 Euro discount

VWP are renowned for their secrecy and I've heard murmors that they somewhat over state the work that they do during conversions. I have also heard they are working with one of the big Euro tractor companies to develop a production PPO tractor. I know somebody who works for a company in Germany that has licenced VWP technology I may be able to get a bit more info from them.

The Wolf website is at www.wolf-pflanzenoel-technik.de or translated at http://tinyurl.com/q45cn . Don't know much about Wolf other than what is listed on their site. It was playing about on me earlier but if you keep clicking it comes up in the end.... Of note they did their first single tank idi 'rotochamber' conversion (VW I guess) in 1987 first and the first PD 1999 a 3 ltr lupo in 1999.

I have heard that there is a race team in the UK very interested in PPO fuel as problems associated with fuel cracking under the high pressures that the racers use in their injection systems are not a problem (or should that be as much of a problem) when running pure plant oils. SO if you really want to GoFaster??

Best

Darren

PS

Elsbett are set to release a single tank PD kit imminently

 

[DarrenUK]

PD DIY Conversions

I would approach a DIY PD conversion with great care. I don't know what is involved with the German conversions and I've limited knowledge of the PD fuel systems and component strengths/weaknesses

 

[Bubbles]

Thanks for that.

I now have the facility to filter down to 1 micron and so wanted to know if just a 10% mix with the diesel tank would be ok.

If I did this I would save about £250/year based on the cars current mileage.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[GoFaster]

If someone has come up with a way of making this work with acceptable durability on a P-D, that's great. I know that Elsbett has a 2-tank system for the P-D engines, and it looks like there are others. The risk is that a proper conversion which deals with the viscosity issues, injector pump and pressure, lift pump, etc is going to be confused with a cheapie system that doesn't deal with those issues. Someone who plunks a Greasecar system or anything similar (no injector / pump changes) into a P-D, or dumps vegetable oil into the fuel tank of an unmodified car, is in for an expensive world of hurt ...

 

[DarrenUK]

Both Wolf and VWP systems are single tank. As said before I would advise caution with DIY. Especially if fuelling with used oil, fuel quality is paramount it isn't just the particulate contamination but the water. http://danalinscott.netfirms.com/ has some good info for sale or do lots of research on the forums - http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=frm&s=447609751&f=159605551 is a good place to start

 

[DarrenUK]

Quick update on VWP conversions. Apparently they are driving a 3 litre Audi commonrail Tdi on PPO. They turned up at a recent demonstration against rising German biofuels taxation in Berlin driving this vehicle. Also the more expensive VWP conversions keep the oil change interval as original.

Best

Darren

 

[tiesel]

Lubricating oil

I wonder how VWP manages the same oil intervals. Elsbett says more frequent changes are necessary, along with vegetable based lubrication oil (not availble in the USA). They also advocate not filling the oil level to the top mark, because it only encourages more engine oil interaction with the fuel.

Tiesel