No-Start (No-Crank) in extreme cold

[vtveg]

My 03 ALH/Auto wouldn't start yesterday AM. I turned key on, waited what seemed like an appropriate time for glowplugs and turned the key to "start"; nothing, not even the sound of the solenoid engaging the starter. I put a set of jumper cables on it, nothing. it was about -5 when this happened. I was able to start it in the PM at 4 above.

I'm thinking its one or both of the following:

Just low voltage, and jumpers aren't doing enough, replace battery hope for the best

Fried (or frozen) starter

any comments, suggestions, ect . . .

 

[Lolas Dad]

Have your battery load tested first. Then go on from there if needed.

 

[DCELL]

I've owned several alh autos over the years. I'm not sure why but they always seem to start harder in the cold than an identical 5spd. In my experience, no amount of jump starting will make it crank when it's that cold, but a new battery is what has done the trick for me. Make sure it's the proper size (dealer, or a battery specific retailer like batteries plus). They are a little more expensive but you should get 5-7 years out of the correct one. It'll be physically large enough to fill your battery tray perfectly.

 

[curtludwig]

Most jumper cables are marginal at best. If the actual wire part of the cable isn't as thick as your thumb they aren't gonna carry much electricity. A lot of manufacturers will try to trick you by making the insulation real thick to make you think the wire is real thick. I've got a pair of really good cables I swiped from my Dad, to replace them would be $50 or more.

 

[TrueNorthist]

A shorted battery can suck up all the amps so nothing gets through to the starter. If you don't have a load tester, remove the positive terminal from the suspect battery, clamp the pos jumper to it and see if it starts. (Take care not to weld it to the car) If it starts the battery is hooped or the alternator is dead. Best to load test it before replacing anything.

edit: of course, connect the ground as normal. And dirty terminals can also cause an issue that reveals with cold snaps. Clean it all up first.

 

[Genesis]

A no-start that refuses to crank at all is usually a high-resistance connection somewhere; it will flow enough current to turn on the lights and the instrument cluster but nowhere near enough to roll the starter over. The usual places are a shorted cell in the battery, a bad connection at the battery itself in the cables or ends, at the starter main terminal or at the chassis ground. Main battery cables can also deteriorate internally and look ok from the outside. You can usually detect this by mildly flexing them along their length -- if you hear "crinkles" or they're harder to flex in one area than another they're corroded inside the sheath and need to be replaced.

However, there is one other possibility that you need to be aware of as while it's rather uncommon it's also extremely dangerous -- a bad connection inside the battery itself between the cells.

The reason that one is dangerous is that batteries produce hydrogen when being charged or discharged, and under high-rate charge or discharge they produce a LOT of it. If there is a bad connection inside the battery and it sparks under heavy load the battery can explode without warning when the key is turned, spraying acid everywhere (most-particularly on you, in your eyes, etc.)

Any time you're working on or around car batteries make sure you're wearing eye protection before screwing with it and have a means of flushing your skin and eyes out in a BIG hurry if this happens. It's a rare occurrence but....

BTW if you connect a (thick!) jumper to a second battery direct to the positive terminal DO NOT REMOVE THAT WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. Unloading the alternator while it is running has a very high probability of instantly destroying the diodes in the alternator and can result in a voltage spike on the V+ bus that will do severe damage to electronics in the vehicle, including the ECU. I do not recommend this procedure because the risk of the cable slipping off is significant and if it happens you're toofed.

 

[EllyMae]

The other posts are BS, with all due respect. I recently replaced the battery with an oversize AGM and installed a brand new starter. Starts like a champ except the odd time first thing in the morning in recent extreme cold snap. Symptoms: lights on, dash stuff on, but not even a solenoid click.

Talked to VW mechanic, VW service rep. Apparently the end of the ignition key needs to "see" a receptor in the key tumbler. When very cold, the grease inside the receptor, or the increased distance due to contraction in extreme cold, introduces too much gap. Result: not even a click, just silence.

Cure: even the dealer and experienced mechanics are unsure as to permanent cure that doesn't cost $5k
Advice: wiggle the key after you've made the final key turn to enable the starter. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I was sitting in the dealership a week ago for something else and an elderly lady walked in complaining of the exact same thing in her Beetle. The service guy told her exactly what I've written here.

Happened again this morning to me, before 8 am, its about -25 outside. Wiggle worked the other day, not this time, so I am sitting here waiting for the sun to warm up the interior of the car so it'll start.

F these cars. When this thing pisses me off even more, if thats possible, its goodbye German cars (and I mean all brands) forever. German car = check engine light always on + wallet always empty + something bizarrely insane

Our cheap plasticky no-fancy-electronics 4 year old manual 5-speed archaic Jeep Patriot started instantly. Why, God, do I bother?

Edit: 3 hours later the sun has warmed up the car inside, and she starts first spin. As predicted.

 

[curtludwig]

So why not just replace the ignition switch. This is a known weak point on these cars but they're cheap and relatively easy to replace.
Or pull it apart, figure out which pin needs a signal that the key is in place and wire a toggle switch to it, put key in, flip toggle switch, start car. Put switch somewhere random, leave it unlabeled and its a security feature to prevent people from stealing your car...

You're comparing a broken 10 year old car to a non broken 4 year old car and say our advice is BS? Hello pot, I'd like to introduce you to my friend the kettle.

 

[jasonTDI]

Exactly as curt said. If you hate the car sell it and move along. We don't need your complaining.

The starters are failing in these cars in rapid fashion as they age.. usually the ground wire corroding apart. As it does it'll melt down the wiring in the solenoid and smoke the starter. I've replaced a dozen this winter for just this.

They also make better testers than load testers. I can't tell you how many times I've had someone come in and say "so and so tested it and gave me this print out and it says it's good?" If you drove there it shows a surface charge and looks fine when it's not got any reserve capacity left. Modern testers show this. Had one yesterday that said it was making 550 amps or something like that. My tester done 4 times to verify showed 125....not good. New battery and all was well (MK5 car)

 

[curtludwig]

Would having a multimeter on it reading volts while trying to crank tell anything?

If the battery is pulling down to say 9v while cranking would that condemn the battery or could a starter pulling crazy current cause a battery to look bad?

 

[jasonTDI]

Both.

 

[Nich]

9 volts on a battery is dead. I think 10 or 10.5 is a low as it should be dropping.

Very interesting problem but it should be solved by heating the tip of the key with a lighter causing it to expand. this heat will then transfer into the ignition causing it to expand. Just don't get it too hot things catch on fire.

I was going to guess a bad connection to the transmission exacerbated by the cold made the ECU think the car was not in park or neutral.

 

[bollweevil]

Remember to check battery cables.

The ground under the battery box is important too !
You can add jumper from top of neg terminal to body ground to check.

I wound up replacing battery, starter & both cables last summer,
now no problems.

Trade my VW, BMW, or Mercedes for a Dodge ?? Not in a million years !!
If I owned a Dodge/Chrysler, it would be a problem if it started and I had to drive it !!!

 

[TDI2000Zim]

Old glow plugs and old electrical harness also behave like that. Our batteries get old quick, but after ten years, so do the glow plugs and wire harness.

 

[vandermic07]

did you tap the started with a hammer? On friday i ran my truck. started up no prob. Saturday morning go to start it. No start, no click, dash and light were on. Checked battery cables, terminals (the garbage side ones), battery was full of juice. still no start. got under and tapped the starter with brass hammer, started right up. something in the started was frozen. It could happen with these cars too.

 

[curtludwig]

Chevy truck? I had an '88 that needed that. Needed a starter was what it really needed. Eventually hitting it didn't help.

 

[Doug Huffman]

[ ... ]The starters are failing in these cars in rapid fashion as they age.. usually the ground wire corroding apart. As it does it'll melt down the wiring in the solenoid and smoke the starter. I've replaced a dozen this winter for just this. [ ... ]

Keep that in mind for when I see you this year. But it started fine at -15F last night.

 

[vandermic07]

Curt
yep, 99 chevy silverado. after being a helping hand at salvage yard growing up, i learned some of what could go wrong in the cold. I dont know if that was the op's issue but just some input.

 

[johnhlr]

glad I found this thread , I have exactly the same symptoms as "EllyMae" , it has been rather cool here the last couple of weeks (-34 the low) and in the morning I have a no crank condition , thought it was the solenoid just sticky when cold , but had the starter off and all looks well , after reading many posts I was thinking it was the ignition switch (as they can go I hear) or the ignition relay although neither solution seemed correct as when it warms up it starts fine , I wonder if I changed the entire ignition if it would solve the problem that being the ignition key needs to "see" a receptor in the key tumbler or if it is just a inherent issue , thoughts?

 

[curtludwig]

"rather cool" I love it. So maybe people on here complain about it being cold when it just hits freezing...

Well this one a multi-meter would help you with. If your voltage doesn't dip at all when you hit the key its not a starter/battery issue and the ignition switch is the place to look. If it does (even a good battery will show some voltage drop when cranking) then the ignition switch isn't the culprit.

 

[Lug_Nut]

Bad starter.
Maybe not your problem, but it was mine.

Drove to work on Monday, had been on the FrostHeater for a few hours as usual, not the most rapid spin on the starter as usual, just another long neglected 275k+ tired low compression cold start,...as usual.
Get in after work, no plug in, but air temp up to nearly freezing / melting, wait for the glow indicator and ....nothing. A very faint click and that's it. No attempt at the starter solenoid even trying to pull in which would have been a louder click, let alone engage the flywheel and struggle to spin the crank.
Key off, key on to try again. Faint click and nothing else. Once more, faint click. This time I held the key in start position and released the clutch pedal and pressed it again. That same faint click was heard each time the pedal hit the floor, so it's not the clutch interlock.
Push started the car and drove home. Got home and parked, engine is up to temp, the interior is up to temp, key off and try to start. A faint click and that's it.
Yesterday I rolled down the drive to bump start (rather than use muscle to push start) and parked on a hill near work. Bought a starter after work, installed it last night (2 hours). Starts right up.
This morning... I can't believe how well the car starts (4F, -15C). It's like it didn't start but was more like it is running, no cranking duration, no "Rur, Rur, Rur" of multiple rotations before it self-sustains, just turn the key and it is running. It was off and then it was running almost without any start in between.