Next generation renewable diesel now available in NorCal?

[SFHGolfTDI]

User Sangretdi just brought to my attention that Propel Fuels, a CA-based retailer of alternative fuels with a very cool business model (rents space/pumps at petroleum fueling stations), has just released a product called "Diesel HPR" in place of their B20 in Northern California. http://www.dieselhpr.com/

It exceeds ASTM D975 petroleum diesel specs and is safe for all diesel engines, including the newest. It also has a claimed 40% higher cetane and far lower emissions (40-90%) than either biodiesel or petrodiesel.

If anyone has more info, has tried it, etc., I'd love to hear some feedback. How does the price compare?

 

[atc98002]

It's puzzling that they claim it's made from waste animal oils, but is not Biodiesel. I thought the definition of BD was simply diesel fuel made from non-petroleum sources. That makes this by definition Biodiesel.

Of course, I can understand them not wanting to muddle up people's thoughts that it could have the same issues that BD has with the latest diesel engines. In that respect it is far to call it something different, but in the end it's still BD. I too would be curious to hear from anyone that has used it. Of course, there's none available in my area, so we will have to see how it goes.

I'm also curious as to retail price, and the viability of high volume production.

 

[bobt2382]

I've bought their B20 a few times when in CA. Curious to see how this is manufactured. Looks like its made from the same materials as biodiesel.

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

Actually, biodiesel has a specific definition, based on the process used to make it from the base stock. This is indeed not biodiesel. Just like WVO or SVO are not biodiesel. These new fuels have mostly been labeled "renewable" diesel (see pg. 15 here):

In general, alternative diesel fuels are a category of motor vehicle fuels that are not conventional diesel and do not solely consist of hydrocarbons. While there are a few alternative diesel fuels in existence today, biodiesel is by far the most prevalent. While renewable diesel is also an innovative diesel fuel replacement, it consists solely of hydrocarbons and is virtually indistinguishable from conventional diesel; therefore,renewable diesel is not considered an alternative diesel fuel under this proposed regulation.
​

It's puzzling that they claim it's made from waste animal oils, but is not Biodiesel. I thought the definition of BD was simply diesel fuel made from non-petroleum sources. That makes this by definition Biodiesel.

Of course, I can understand them not wanting to muddle up people's thoughts that it could have the same issues that BD has with the latest diesel engines. In that respect it is far to call it something different, but in the end it's still BD. I too would be curious to hear from anyone that has used it. Of course, there's none available in my area, so we will have to see how it goes.

I'm also curious as to retail price, and the viability of high volume production.

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

I've bought their B20 a few times when in CA. Curious to see how this is manufactured. Looks like its made from the same materials as biodiesel.

Yes, you're right. Made from same feedstocks as biodiesel. But compatible with all diesel vehicles and superior to both petro and biodiesel. That's pretty cool. I would love to try this.

 

[bobt2382]

Thanks for the info! I will look for this the next time I'm out on the west coast with my TDI.

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

Found more info from some who have used it here. This stuff sounds amazing: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/alternative-fuels/365693-biomass-based-diesel-vs-biodiesel.html

 

[sangretdi]

i filled up my tank with the HPR this a.m. and going to see how the car responds. price was about $1 cheaper a gal than what i normally pay for b99. reading the vague online information i thought the same thing, it sounds like bio diesel made from fish and poultry guts. just had my IP resealed so wondering how this stuff reacts to the viton seals, etc...

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

Sangretdi, you shouldn't have anything to worry about if you just had your IP resealed with viton. I'd prefer if the stuff wasn't made from animal feedstocks (industrial ag is its own can of worms), but it beats petroleum. In my reading, this stuff has cetane of 80-90% in some cases

Added benefits: No problems in cold temps, etc. I also heard it is clear in color and less stinky. But when I did a quick comparison, at least according to the National Biodiesel Board, emissions still seem better on FAME biodiesel (the old stuff); see here and here.

It just seems so strange that Propel rolled this out so widely in NorCal but very quietly. I couldn't find a press release or anything.

Keep us posted, especially if you notice difference in fuel economy, power or any other changes.

 

[Odilatinam]

Just ran into this when filling up at my usual Propel station. I'm kind of disappointed that this has less lubricity than BD, but I'm glad that I no longer have to worry about BD in the engine oil because of the DPF cycles. I will probably fill up my CR with this, but now I need to see if there is a convenient place with BD for my PD. And I'll need to research a lubricity additive for my HPFP...

Not much impressions yet on the first 20 miles with 50% HPR, 40% D2, and 10% BD. I rarely drive this car, so I'll fill my PD up this week and report back on my experiences. I want to say the engine felt smoother, but it is probably because this is the first time I've driven my CR in a month, and the PD is definitely rougher

 

[atc98002]

SFH, thanks for the clarification. I was under the assumption that the general category of BD lumped all waste oil conversion processes (not untreated waste or virgin oil) under that label. Seems fair to differentiate between them. Especially since this particular product is a drop-in replacement for petro-diesel.

Still wondering about the ability of this product to be manufactured in any respectable quantities. It sounds like the fuel we are all waiting for, but it has to be more available than one particular neighborhood.

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

Just ran into this when filling up at my usual Propel station. I'm kind of disappointed that this has less lubricity than BD, but I'm glad that I no longer have to worry about BD in the engine oil because of the DPF cycles. I will probably fill up my CR with this, but now I need to see if there is a convenient place with BD for my PD. And I'll need to research a lubricity additive for my HPFP...

Not much impressions yet on the first 20 miles with 50% HPR, 40% D2, and 10% BD. I rarely drive this car, so I'll fill my PD up this week and report back on my experiences. I want to say the engine felt smoother, but it is probably because this is the first time I've driven my CR in a month, and the PD is definitely rougher

I think I read somewhere else that it is 98% HPR because the rest is additives. Something to look into.

 

[Kristen510]

Rad. There is a station around the corner from my office. I am definitely going to try this blend, I was not looking forward to the next 50K miles back on dino in the new Golf. Stoked!

 

[Geomorph]

Just stopped at my usual Propel station and found this Diesel HPR instead of the B20 I had been using. The pump stickers read 98 percent biomass based and contains no biodiesel. It was cheaper than regular diesel at the same station. I noticed it was quicker and easier to top up than B20 since it didn't foam as much. I only drove 8 miles since filling so far. The tank was less than a quarter full with B20 before stopping at the station. So far seems smooth driving but will see how it goes. I had not heard of it before stopping at the station so that is how I ended up here to see what is up.

 

[Derramax]

I filled up my 98 Jetta with it. I wonder who is behind the change? Is it big oil trying to gain control of the alternative fuel scene or is it just a new/different type fuel? That is one of the reasons I liked supporting the "home brewer", get away from big oil and their evil ways.
I also wonder about lubricity. Its supposed to be as good as ULSD? We know that basically has the lubricity of sand paper. I usually use Stanadyne in each tank and its supposed to up the lube characteristics.

 

[finnloag]

I literally couldn't sleep Saturday night after filling up with this in the morning (lotsa googling to find out more about Propel's HPR diesel -- aka "renewable diesel"). For those of you who believe in conspiracy theories, is it a coincidence that The Man (temporarily, we hope) shut down Biofuel Oasis right when this came out? The only reason I was at Propel's pump was because Oasis was closed. I have to admit, I will probably be "blending" now with biodiesel added for lubricity and to keep my seals happy. One other point not yet mentioned, "renewable diesel" does better than biodiesel on nitrogen oxide emissions.

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

I literally couldn't sleep Saturday night after filling up with this in the morning (lotsa googling to find out more about Propel's HPR diesel -- aka "renewable diesel"). For those of you who believe in conspiracy theories, is it a coincidence that The Man (temporarily, we hope) shut down Biofuel Oasis right when this came out? The only reason I was at Propel's pump was because Oasis was closed. I have to admit, I will probably be "blending" now with biodiesel added for lubricity and to keep my seals happy. One other point not yet mentioned, "renewable diesel" does better than biodiesel on nitrogen oxide emissions.

Sh--, they shut down Biofuel Oasis too? Our coop in LA was shut down by the CA Dept of Weights and Measures for not having "compliant" pumps (or whatever). We also hope temporarily. But if you read my other thread about other regulatory matters, it seems that CARB has it in for biodiesel and we likely will no longer be able to get B99 after 2016 unless you homebrew or get it "underground." My suspicion is they are trying to get all biodiesel to go the route of renewable diesel, which is cleaner and exceeds ULSD in all ways. (The same oil/tallow/WVO feedstocks can be processed to make renewable diesel instead of biodiesel.) But, it is pretty nasty because they do seem intent on killing the industry in California, or at least "incentivizing" renewable diesel over biodiesel.

 

[Geomorph]

I have been noticing that the cold start exhaust odor is almost nonexistent with the Diesel HPR. While B20 was a big improvement in the cold exhaust smell over D2 or B5, it still had a lot of smell, just a better smell. On my 2002, it is almost like the engine is warmed up already with the lack of odor. I wonder if it is due to that extra high cetane 70+.

 

[finnloag]

Biofuel Oasis is scheduled to reopen this afternoon.

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

Biofuel Oasis is scheduled to reopen this afternoon.

Can you share why they closed in the first place?

 

[Geomorph]

Some google searching in other forums indicated that this fuel is made by Neste Oil. This document from the California Air Resources Board seems to describe the product that is at the pump:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/2a2b/apps/neste-aus-rpt-031513.pdf

It gives a very technical overview of where the fuel comes from and how it is made.

 

[finnloag]

Geomorph, Thanks for hunting down the pathway description (I had no luck searching the ARB spreadsheets last night). And I thought the Middle East was a long way to go for oil. This stuff originates in Middle Earth! (rendering plants in New Zealand... and Australia ).

SFHGolfTDI, my take on the the 'red tagging' of the Biofuel Oasis pumps is that their procedures were not tight enough to disallow a purchase by a non-member. From their email: We will need to tighten up the access to our fuel at our Berkeley station through the use of membership cards, etc., when we reopen.

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

Some google searching in other forums indicated that this fuel is made by Neste Oil. This document from the California Air Resources Board seems to describe the product that is at the pump:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/2a2b/apps/neste-aus-rpt-031513.pdf

It gives a very technical overview of where the fuel comes from and how it is made.

Geomorph, I think I've seen some of the references to Neste as well, but I didn't see anything definitive to say that Diesel HPR from Propel is the same stuff. Can you provide a link to where you saw that?

 

[Geomorph]

Someone in this Ram Diesel forum mentions that they called Propel and were told that it was made in Singapore by a Finnish Company "I forgot the name, Teste fuels or something to that effect." http://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum/ram-1500-diesel-general-discussion/4687-diesel-hpr-2.html That would seem to match the description in the CARB document in my last post.

The first post in this forum thread states: "Propel Fuels is purchasing its renewable diesel from Nests oil of Finland" but I don't see the source of this information: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/alternative-fuels/365693-biomass-based-diesel-vs-biodiesel.html

I thought I saw it mentioned in someone else's phone conversation with Propel too but I can't seem to locate that now.

 

[wxman]

There was a presentation by ConocoPhillips given at the 2007 DEER conference that gives chemistry, properties and processing of renewable diesel...

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f9/deer07_cornforth.pdf

 

[Geomorph]

Here is a letter from Propel to the California Air Resources Board indicating that they are selling "NextBTL":
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/regamend14/propel_10162014.pdf
NEXBTL is the name that Neste Oil uses for it's renewable diesel: http://www.nesteoil.com/default.asp?path=1,41,11991,22708,22709,22710

 

[finnloag]

I know I've seen "fish oil" mentioned as a feedstock (Propel pump labeling) on some threads. Here's the Fish Oil to Renewable Diesel Pathway submitted by Neste Oil to CA ARB.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/2a2b/apps/nes-sea-foil-sum-011414.pdf
In addition to fish oil, GCC reported North American tallow as a feed stock. Here is that pathway report.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/2a2b/apps/nes-na-tallow-sum-011414.pdf
Geomorph, thank for nailing down the NExBTL link.

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

I know I've seen "fish oil" mentioned as a feedstock (Propel pump labeling) on some threads. Here's the Fish Oil to Renewable Diesel Pathway submitted by Neste Oil to CA ARB.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/2a2b/apps/nes-sea-foil-sum-011414.pdf
In addition to fish oil, GCC reported North American tallow as a feed stock. Here is that pathway report.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/2a2b/apps/nes-na-tallow-sum-011414.pdf
Geomorph, thank for nailing down the NExBTL link.

This is fascinating, and a little disturbing. Its hard to believe that with all the shipping involved, this qualifies as "low carbon" option (for those of us that care about this kind of thing). But apparently it still does? What I don't understand is why aren't any of the many refineries in the Bay and Los Angeles making this stuff from our local tallow? It would seem much more cost effective than hauling it 14k+ nautical miles to Asia and back.

I'm also pretty ticked about the crackdown by the State of CA on biodiesel outlets all over the state. It looks like our coop has been officially shut down (our "variance" application was rejected). There are some "fishy" things going on at the regulatory level.

 

[rawman]

Just filled up my 09 JSW with it. I've only gone 5 miles so can't comment much on it other than it was less expensive than other diesel in the area. I usually do a lot of research before trying anything new, and hadn't heard of this before but I filled up on it anyway. So I'm glad to see this thread.

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

Just filled up my 09 JSW with it. I've only gone 5 miles so can't comment much on it other than it was less expensive than other diesel in the area. I usually do a lot of research before trying anything new, and hadn't heard of this before but I filled up on it anyway. So I'm glad to see this thread.

This is VERY good news for CA TDI owners with newer vehicles who want to run renewables. Definitely post feedback when you have any.