My Brother in the News
- Thread starter gern_blanston
- Start date
TIFFANYTDI
Veteran Member
very interesting! I love the idea!
gern_blanston
Veteran Member
Yeah, he's quite a computer-head, so anything that can be done with a micro-processor instead of a simple on/off switch will be done digitally.
dantheswim
Veteran Member
Thats awesome. Great idea and if I drove more than 20 miles a day I'd want to do the exact same!
gern_blanston
Veteran Member
I'd sure be tempted myself, but I'm driving less than 8 miles to work, and it's on the freeway. Barely enough to get the heater to put out any warmth in the winter time.
We were pleasantly surprised that she got most of the stuff right that he talked about.
We were pleasantly surprised that she got most of the stuff right that he talked about.
nicklockard
Torque Dorque
Gern, you and your brother rock.
I've got in mind a modified two-tank VO system:
I don't ever wan't my tdi to run on 100% VO. I am worried from reading other's experiences that the tdi pump and injectors do not tolerate VO well over the long term.
However, I really think a blend of dino/vo can be run safely. Here's how I see VO versus dino diesel:
Pro's Con's
VO Good lubricity w/ right oil Varnish on injectors..
Dino Less varnish Poor lubricity/corrosive
So, given my background as a chemist, I'd like to use 'viscosity proportioning.' It'll use a 3 way proportioning valve: A, B, A+B
It would work like this:
At shutdown from a long trip, I'd switch from A+B to just A (dino diesel) to purge the lines of VO.
At the next startup, I'd switch it back to A+B. Initially, the VO would be cold. Correspondingly, it's viscosity would be quite a bit higher than dino diesel. The proportion of dino/VO blend would scale in inverse proportion to the viscometric ratio:
[viscosity of dino at Td:fixed temp(explained later)]
________________________
[Viscosity of VO at Tvo] (time)
VO viscosity has a functional dependency on temperature and time ( waste heat input into tank system more accurately, but time is good enough approximation) and its intrinsic viscosity
Initially, both temperatures are at ambient temperature, and the ratio strongly favors dino diesel. As the VO tank temp increases, its viscositie decreases, according to its viscometric properties (called the Mark-Heuwink parameters.)
After some time, the VO tank temperatures reaches natural equilibrium set point. This temperature difference determines the steady-state viscosity (and fuel composition) ratio.
I don't have those parameters yet. It'd take a Cann-Ubelhold (?) glass viscometer and knowledge of average molecular weight of a vo ( I know this could be wildly varied from one source to the next, but you'd get a ballpark to work with.)
Next, the fuel return line would have to be rerouted to the vo/secondary tank. I wouldn't wan't VO in my dino diesel, but dino in VO is just fine.
Without any parameters, I'd just guess that the dino diesel would always have lower viscosity at our operating temperatures (but not sure, just a guess, eh...) If that were the case, the fuel composition at steady-state would be more in favor of dino diesel, keeping varnish to minimum, while having added lubricity from the VO. Each complementing the other. As the trip wore on, dino tank would empty out first, and VO tank would get progressively richer in dino. You could just move the switch to B tank only to prevent going dry and sucking air bubbles (and saving a small amount of dino in tank A for your shut-down purging ritual.)
If the reverse case is true (viscosity of VO less than dino's at elevated temperature) than the VO tank draws down faster but also get's progressively richer in dino diesel from return line (less so than in the first case.)
In either case, the amount of VO being burned in the engine is very gradually increasing, until it reaches equilibrium set-point VO tank temperatures stabilizes. The engine never burns straight VO, varnish buildup is avoided, but lubricity is always improved over straight dino diesel.
Best of both worlds, unless I've made obvious missed errors...( please correct.)
What do ya'll think?
I've got in mind a modified two-tank VO system:
I don't ever wan't my tdi to run on 100% VO. I am worried from reading other's experiences that the tdi pump and injectors do not tolerate VO well over the long term.
However, I really think a blend of dino/vo can be run safely. Here's how I see VO versus dino diesel:
Pro's Con's
VO Good lubricity w/ right oil Varnish on injectors..
Dino Less varnish Poor lubricity/corrosive
So, given my background as a chemist, I'd like to use 'viscosity proportioning.' It'll use a 3 way proportioning valve: A, B, A+B
It would work like this:
At shutdown from a long trip, I'd switch from A+B to just A (dino diesel) to purge the lines of VO.
At the next startup, I'd switch it back to A+B. Initially, the VO would be cold. Correspondingly, it's viscosity would be quite a bit higher than dino diesel. The proportion of dino/VO blend would scale in inverse proportion to the viscometric ratio:
[viscosity of dino at Td:fixed temp(explained later)]
________________________
[Viscosity of VO at Tvo] (time)
VO viscosity has a functional dependency on temperature and time ( waste heat input into tank system more accurately, but time is good enough approximation) and its intrinsic viscosity
Initially, both temperatures are at ambient temperature, and the ratio strongly favors dino diesel. As the VO tank temp increases, its viscositie decreases, according to its viscometric properties (called the Mark-Heuwink parameters.)
After some time, the VO tank temperatures reaches natural equilibrium set point. This temperature difference determines the steady-state viscosity (and fuel composition) ratio.
I don't have those parameters yet. It'd take a Cann-Ubelhold (?) glass viscometer and knowledge of average molecular weight of a vo ( I know this could be wildly varied from one source to the next, but you'd get a ballpark to work with.)
Next, the fuel return line would have to be rerouted to the vo/secondary tank. I wouldn't wan't VO in my dino diesel, but dino in VO is just fine.
Without any parameters, I'd just guess that the dino diesel would always have lower viscosity at our operating temperatures (but not sure, just a guess, eh...) If that were the case, the fuel composition at steady-state would be more in favor of dino diesel, keeping varnish to minimum, while having added lubricity from the VO. Each complementing the other. As the trip wore on, dino tank would empty out first, and VO tank would get progressively richer in dino. You could just move the switch to B tank only to prevent going dry and sucking air bubbles (and saving a small amount of dino in tank A for your shut-down purging ritual.)
If the reverse case is true (viscosity of VO less than dino's at elevated temperature) than the VO tank draws down faster but also get's progressively richer in dino diesel from return line (less so than in the first case.)
In either case, the amount of VO being burned in the engine is very gradually increasing, until it reaches equilibrium set-point VO tank temperatures stabilizes. The engine never burns straight VO, varnish buildup is avoided, but lubricity is always improved over straight dino diesel.
Best of both worlds, unless I've made obvious missed errors...( please correct.)
What do ya'll think?
A viscosity vs. temp. chart can be found in "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank" by Joshua Tickell. Charts for both petro diesel and veg. oil.
No mention of the temp. of the VO, or the mechanisms.
Assuming it's heated to 160*F, you're no worse off than users of 100% VO at 160*F.
As for varnish, if it happens a blend will still accumulate it
nicklockard
Torque Dorque
I think I'd just go with integrated heater in the VO tank that is heated by engine waste heat (coolant tap) like a lot of systems do. Also, the fuel pump gradually heats ups fuel in the tank via the return line. I think the 160 F you mentioned sounds about right.
But hopefully much much slower. Occasionally, I'd do this.
HopefulFred
Veteran Member
I get a little lost in some of your explaination, but there are a couple things I would want to know:
Does the viscometric (what was that word?) ratio need ongoing adaptation to account for the mixing of dino and VO in the VO tank? (That might be something you were saying adn i missed it...) If it does, can this be accomplished based on some kind of viscocity senser? Or did you say there was a valve system that does this naturally? (that would be neat - like bernoulli or something)
What is the fuel return flow rate? How quickly will the dino tank be totally empty? Do you run a risk of overfilling the VO tank?
You'll need two fuel guages right? I guess that's not a big deal...
I would love some kind of automated system. If it were electronic, maybe you could tell the electronics you would be shutting down in 5 minutes (or some other appropriate time) so that it could manage the fuel switch-back.
Does the viscometric (what was that word?) ratio need ongoing adaptation to account for the mixing of dino and VO in the VO tank? (That might be something you were saying adn i missed it...) If it does, can this be accomplished based on some kind of viscocity senser? Or did you say there was a valve system that does this naturally? (that would be neat - like bernoulli or something)
What is the fuel return flow rate? How quickly will the dino tank be totally empty? Do you run a risk of overfilling the VO tank?
You'll need two fuel guages right? I guess that's not a big deal...
I would love some kind of automated system. If it were electronic, maybe you could tell the electronics you would be shutting down in 5 minutes (or some other appropriate time) so that it could manage the fuel switch-back.
nicklockard
Torque Dorque
That's right. Bernouli's principles are at play here. The system automatically self-proportions at all temperatures. As in a carburator (sp?), the lower-viscosity (air) always flows in much much greater proportion to the higher viscosity (gasoline), however, the differential pressure, which is related to the differential viscosities, ensures that the passing airstream always pulls some gasoline into it.
In my proposed system, there is no need for special apportioning valves. The two fluids are simply joined with a 3 way selector valve which can go to position A, B, or A+B.
The system always self-adjusts according to the differential viscosities of the two fluids, which is related to temperature and their intrinsic viscosities (and those parameters mentioned b4.)
)
I'd have to search the forums, but I think it is like 1-2 gph, depending on engine load. One beauty of the proposed system is that your range would be ridiculous! If you put a VO tank where the spare wheel goes that can hold 21 gallons of volume. The dino tank would empty out fast, since no fuel is being returned to it.
Yes, so you'd have to leave some expansion volume in it: maybe 30% of total capacity or more.
Yeah, two gauges would be best. Gern's brother could probably design a timed system or something completely electronic. He's already done some custom electronic circuits for his conversion.
Gern, I wonder what your brother thinks about this idea?
gern_blanston
Veteran Member
I'm seeing him tomorrow, I'll find out.
gern_blanston
Veteran Member
My brother came down today to wire up the button in his dash and help me install my PP520's. The button in the dash looks GREAT. A couple of points after talking to him:
1) I don't think you want even a small amount of VO in your injectors until it's warmed up. It's not going to atomize properly if it's cool, even if it's mixed with diesel.
2) Since you don't have any need to vary the percentage once the coolant's warmed up (after 5 minutes you'll want to run 100% VO), there's no need to have anything that complicated. And your 'total loss' return system soon empties one tank. Now the car cools down, and you've got VO and diesel together in one tank, and the VO cools down, congeals, and who know what would happen. Yuck. The Greasel system purges VO from the pump/injectors before you shut down, and the return lines return the two types of fuel to their respective tanks. And you've still got 1,500+ mile range because you've got 30+ gallons of fuel on board.
One interesting thing I found out today: He's hacking into the fuel-indicating system, so that when he's burning VO, the in-dash fuel gauge indicates VO level, and when he's burning diesel, it indicates diesel level. Kinda' cool.
1) I don't think you want even a small amount of VO in your injectors until it's warmed up. It's not going to atomize properly if it's cool, even if it's mixed with diesel.
2) Since you don't have any need to vary the percentage once the coolant's warmed up (after 5 minutes you'll want to run 100% VO), there's no need to have anything that complicated. And your 'total loss' return system soon empties one tank. Now the car cools down, and you've got VO and diesel together in one tank, and the VO cools down, congeals, and who know what would happen. Yuck. The Greasel system purges VO from the pump/injectors before you shut down, and the return lines return the two types of fuel to their respective tanks. And you've still got 1,500+ mile range because you've got 30+ gallons of fuel on board.
One interesting thing I found out today: He's hacking into the fuel-indicating system, so that when he's burning VO, the in-dash fuel gauge indicates VO level, and when he's burning diesel, it indicates diesel level. Kinda' cool.
EECSentric
Veteran Member
I love the Nalgene bottle. What type of valves are you using (3/6 way, solenoid/motor)?
My main question is on the operation of the diesel purge for shutdown. If the IP supply is diesel and the IP return goes the WVO tank, how long does that need to run before we can be sure the IP and injector lines are cleared of veggie?
I want to use a veggie-therm style heater, but I'm trying to decide if it should go before or after the supply selection valve.
Awesome setup.
My main question is on the operation of the diesel purge for shutdown. If the IP supply is diesel and the IP return goes the WVO tank, how long does that need to run before we can be sure the IP and injector lines are cleared of veggie?
I want to use a veggie-therm style heater, but I'm trying to decide if it should go before or after the supply selection valve.
Awesome setup.
Brian_M
Member
EECSentric,
I'm Gern's brother -- I finally registered.
Bear in mind that I'm no expert with this WVO thing -- I've been running it for about a week.
One reason I moved the washer-fluid reservoir and stuck the valves and such there are to reduce the line-flush times. The longest switched line is about 10" long. So when I shut down, I switch the supply to diesel and the return to "flush" mode. That routes the return back to the VO tank through the VO filter. So as diesel starts flowing again, it returns back through the VO filter. Because everything is mounted so close together, I start to get diesel at the VO filter in about 5 seconds. By 15, it's nearly pure diesel. Once the flush is done, I switch the return back to the diesel tank.
In practice, I switch both lines when I turn onto my street. I live 6 houses down that street. I switch the return back to the diesel tank just before I shut down.
When I was first ready to try it, I back-flushed diesel all the way to the VO tank -- through teh VO filter. It took about 60 seconds.
Brian
I'm Gern's brother -- I finally registered.
Bear in mind that I'm no expert with this WVO thing -- I've been running it for about a week.
One reason I moved the washer-fluid reservoir and stuck the valves and such there are to reduce the line-flush times. The longest switched line is about 10" long. So when I shut down, I switch the supply to diesel and the return to "flush" mode. That routes the return back to the VO tank through the VO filter. So as diesel starts flowing again, it returns back through the VO filter. Because everything is mounted so close together, I start to get diesel at the VO filter in about 5 seconds. By 15, it's nearly pure diesel. Once the flush is done, I switch the return back to the diesel tank.
In practice, I switch both lines when I turn onto my street. I live 6 houses down that street. I switch the return back to the diesel tank just before I shut down.
When I was first ready to try it, I back-flushed diesel all the way to the VO tank -- through teh VO filter. It took about 60 seconds.
Brian
nicklockard
Torque Dorque
I'd never heard that. I think the amount of dissolved 'molassis-like' cold VO on diesel oil would be very very low, but I don't know, I didn't buy that guys's book
Well, the whole point is I'm not convinced running 100% VO is good for Tdi injector and pumps. (check the forums linked at greasel and other places....there are some NASTY SCARY pictures of coked and varnished injectors)Moreover, that's the whole benefit: my system is incredibly simple: one valve, zero attention required other than to switch it 'on.'
Huh? How could this be any worse than straight VO? If it's mixed with dino diesel, it will have a much much lowered gel-point! The car will have been purged at shutdown with dino diesel, so maybe I'm not understanding your point here...(?)
That is very very cool.
I'm sorry if I've kind of hijacked your thread
gern_blanston
Veteran Member
No problem. I think the whole project's kinda' cool. I see what you're thinking, now. Always having at least SOME diesel in the mix. I really don't think VO and diesel would mix well, though, and if they didn't, you'd have thick VO in the bottom (top?) of the tank, or blobs of VO floating in your diesel. The simplicity (from the user point-of-view) of your idea is a big plus, though.
volmaniac
Veteran Member
wow, great article and awesome web page showing the install! maybe he can figure out a way to install a phatbox (still velco'd my golf's trunk!). please keep us updated on your experiences.
dave
dave
EECSentric
Veteran Member
Brian, Welcome to the club.
What did you have to do to get the nalgene bottle to work? I guess I'll have to pull the thing appart to see where the wires and all go.
What did you have to do to get the nalgene bottle to work? I guess I'll have to pull the thing appart to see where the wires and all go.
detroitdieselwannabe
Veteran Member
diesel Jetta without the customary black smoke trailing behind.
Ummmm, I've never seen a VW MK4 with a plume of black smoke. Certainly not 'customary.' The poor image of the 70's smoke blower is still alive and seemingly much too engrained in the minds of people
Ummmm, I've never seen a VW MK4 with a plume of black smoke. Certainly not 'customary.' The poor image of the 70's smoke blower is still alive and seemingly much too engrained in the minds of people
latitude500
Veteran Member
Congrat's on the install. I'm getting my grease car kit in about two weeks. Good to hear more people are doing there part.
caddy shack
Well-known member
I have had wvo systen in my 81 rabbit tdi for a while but I wouldn't want it in the paper because of tax reasons
Brian_M
Member
EECSentric,
Thanks for the welcome
The Nalgene bottle wasn't too hard. I drilled a hole a little smaller than the rubber tube coming from the pump near the bottom and stuffed the tubing through. Then I used a hole saw to cut a larger hole for the low-level sensor. That had a rubber grommet around it, so getting the hole the right size is critical. But I haven't had any leaks. The pump doesn't have any problems pumping the fluid through the extended (roughly 3 extra feet) tubing.
I flipped the sending unit on the VO tank tonight -- it was just backwards of the VW sending unit. I'm hoping to get the dual fuel-gauge mod done this weekend. That way the VW fuel gauge will show diesel while warming up on diesel, and VO when running on VO. And the little low-fuel light should come on as I run low on VO too! (I'm counting on it
)
Brian
Thanks for the welcome
The Nalgene bottle wasn't too hard. I drilled a hole a little smaller than the rubber tube coming from the pump near the bottom and stuffed the tubing through. Then I used a hole saw to cut a larger hole for the low-level sensor. That had a rubber grommet around it, so getting the hole the right size is critical. But I haven't had any leaks. The pump doesn't have any problems pumping the fluid through the extended (roughly 3 extra feet) tubing.
I flipped the sending unit on the VO tank tonight -- it was just backwards of the VW sending unit. I'm hoping to get the dual fuel-gauge mod done this weekend. That way the VW fuel gauge will show diesel while warming up on diesel, and VO when running on VO. And the little low-fuel light should come on as I run low on VO too! (I'm counting on it
Brian
Brian_M
Member
caddy_shack,
Yeah.. I wasn't exactly thrilled about the news coverage. I work at a university, and the folks in the University Communications office apparently are always on the lookout for ways to get the university name in the press (in some favorable way...) So they called the newspapers on me. I wasn't thrilled, but I played along.
Brian
Yeah.. I wasn't exactly thrilled about the news coverage. I work at a university, and the folks in the University Communications office apparently are always on the lookout for ways to get the university name in the press (in some favorable way...) So they called the newspapers on me. I wasn't thrilled, but I played along.
Brian