Mk3 Golf sipster project.

G3TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
CA
TDI
1994 Golf TDI http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=305898
Ever since I ran across the TopGear's Rabbit Sipster project I have wanted to do something similar.

5 Part Article can be found here:
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/categoryview/categoryid/139/project-sipster.aspx

Videos can be found here
http://www.bbcamerica.com/shows/topgear/video.jsp?bclid=31560306001&bctid=30115379001

All gathered together here:
http://rabbitsipster.blogspot.com/

I was pretty sure I didn't want to start with a Mk1 (Rabbit) as they did, just because I want this to be a daily driver etc. So I first was considering to do a Mk2 and in fact started this thread on this other forum:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/big-bumper-small-vw-golf-mk2-12384.html

I have since changed this plan to a Mk3 mainly from learning from the ecomodder forums how little role the weight plays and how much the aerodynamics does! I figure I can lower the weight on a Mk3 much easier than making a Mk1 & Mk2 more aerodynamic :)

Mk1 Weight 1918 lbs (870 Kg) Drag: 0.42
Mk2 Weight 2026 lbs (920 Kg) Drag: 0.34
Mk3 Weight 2387 lbs (1084 Kg) Drag: 0.30

But more importantly I learned that Cd is only half of the story (if even half :)) cause I found this info:

Mk 1 Cd.A = 0.83
Mk 2 Cd.A = 0.70
Mk 3 Cd.A = 0.66
Mk 4 Cd.A = 0.70
Mk 5 Cd.A = 0.76

here: http://www.clubgti.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=1761101

Now that I have introduced my ideas, and project I can add to this now that I have just recently bought a 1994 Golf (2.0 ABA) & a 1998 TDI Jetta. So I am ready to start this now, did some of the homework tonight and found out that the Rabbit sipster used an ALH engine but an AHU transmission apparently ".... and an 02A five-speed transmission from a '98 TDI (the '98s had taller gearing that will help with our mileage goals"
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_arti...oject-sipster-part-2--the-road-to-regina.aspx

Now I would like to know what you TDIclub guys think of this:



That's a screen shot from the video linked to above, now that is apparently a chipped ALH, however to keep it simple I chose to go the route of doing a Mk3 Jetta TDI -> Mk3 Golf. So what would the best performance improvements be for the AHU with best MPGs in mind?

By the way my goal is 70-80MPG! :)

P.S. Here is a pic of a nice Mk3 I ran across that has been inspiring to this project, as I do plan on lowering it and maybe remove ext mirrors :)
 
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DaveLinger

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Location
Morgantown, WV
TDI
2001 Golf TDI
You might have to get a custom high-mileage tune. Most, if not all of the "normal" tunes are for more power, and will not make a big difference with the mileage.
 

vwmk4

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Location
ROCKPILE IL. USA
TDI
None at this time, Looking for a nice one though.
G3TDI, I look forward to following this thread and wish you all the best in your quest. Hope that you keep this thread alive for the long run and keep us all in the loop.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Great project. Thanks for this. I will watch with vicarious interest for much success.

I think you should consider upsizing tire diameter as a cheap way to increase final drive ratio. And a tall 5th gear.

The ALH engine will need to be kept at a loaded condition, at lower rpm's at a 65 mph cruising speed for your project to achieve superstar mileage figures.

And get low rolling resistance tires.

A mirror shave might net 1-2 mpg at freeway speeds. Easy to do by replacing with internal multiple-mirror arrays which can be found online.

What's the mk3 Jetta's CdA?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

G3TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
CA
TDI
1994 Golf TDI http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=305898
Great project. Thanks for this. I will watch with vicarious interest for much success.

I think you should consider upsizing tire diameter as a cheap way to increase final drive ratio. And a tall 5th gear.

The ALH engine will need to be kept at a loaded condition, at lower rpm's at a 65 mph cruising speed for your project to achieve superstar mileage figures.

And get low rolling resistance tires.

A mirror shave might net 1-2 mpg at freeway speeds. Easy to do by replacing with internal multiple-mirror arrays which can be found online.

What's the mk3 Jetta's CdA?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cd.A for Jetta I don't know I only dug up the info on the web ;)

I do have a Mk4 ALH car as a daily driver and even a used ALH block but optioned for the Mk3 donor for ease of installment and ran across for me the perfect donor car which I have now.

As for tires yes I've always done oversize for overall better MPG etc, but learned now how quickly weight increase with size so I've come down to considering 10lb each Miata stock 14" alloys for both price availability and of course weight. Tires I'm looking at 165 or 175 65 14 the latter being tad over stock diam but 1lb more each than the 165s that then again are tad under in diam. Think the latter was even $10 less each the 165s are stock Honda insight tires (Bridgestones) and yes LRR tires!
 

G3TDI

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Joined
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CA
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1994 Golf TDI http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=305898
Thanks! Ironically I'm having the project car smoged right now (with it's stock 2.0 ABA engine just to get paperwork out of the way for 2 yrs or so ;)
So yes I got the Golf (ABA 2.0) to pass Smog and right away the buyer (of the engine, he in turn is putting this ABA into a 1978 Rabbit :)) his friend and myself went to pull it out. He now has the engine at his place.

 

Conan

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Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Location
Denver
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2003 GLS TDI
It might be a good idea to talk with a guru and a tuner early. I just got a Kerma tune, where they asked what I had for hardware, and what I wanted to do. I told them that ideally I'd like a lot more power, no smoke, and great mileage, and keep it conservative enough that I don't need to spring for a beefier clutch. Mileage not as important as power and fun, but I'd rather not go below the 30s. I don't know for sure if Kerma is experienced with tuning for FE, but it couldn't hurt to ask. I'm guessing that a tune where FE was the main criteria would be pretty easy to put together. Another good feature with Kerma, is you can get your tune tweaked for free in the future if you change hardware.

Also, it would be good to get FE feedback from people who have lowered their cars. Is it a given that lowering will lower drag? Intuitively, I would think that raising the car a little, and putting fairings over any turbulence-inducing parts on the undercarriage would be more effective than lowering it. I'm sure somebody out there has done full-size wind tunnel tests, if not on a VW.
 

G3TDI

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1994 Golf TDI http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=305898
It might be a good idea to talk with a guru and a tuner early. I just got a Kerma tune, where they asked what I had for hardware, and what I wanted to do. I told them that ideally I'd like a lot more power, no smoke, and great mileage, and keep it conservative enough that I don't need to spring for a beefier clutch. Mileage not as important as power and fun, but I'd rather not go below the 30s. I don't know for sure if Kerma is experienced with tuning for FE, but it couldn't hurt to ask. I'm guessing that a tune where FE was the main criteria would be pretty easy to put together. Another good feature with Kerma, is you can get your tune tweaked for free in the future if you change hardware.
Have we still not come to the time where one could alter things yourself, I mean kind of like VagCom where there's like one section that's "safe" for the DIYer to touch and the other where you kind of have to know a little before you dig in :) I wish there was something similar for chip tuning, at least fine tuning :). Either way I am going to hold off on that a bit just yet as I don't really know exactly all what parts I might be using. I am focusing on MPG but I know that doing so will also automatically make the car FUN to drive, that is the time I will just ignore the MPG numbers and use it's light weight and power for...FUN :)


Also, it would be good to get FE feedback from people who have lowered their cars. Is it a given that lowering will lower drag? Intuitively, I would think that raising the car a little, and putting fairings over any turbulence-inducing parts on the undercarriage would be more effective than lowering it. I'm sure somebody out there has done full-size wind tunnel tests, if not on a VW.
I have been reading plenty on ecomodder.com but since they are not really a TDI orientated site I "moved here" with this thread as such. But yes it is ( quick search pulled up these results just now http://www.google.com/custom?sitese...skin/headerL.jpg;S:http://;LP:1;FORID:1&hl=en )

Anyway yes I will be using the plastic cover (from my ex-1997 AAZ Canadian spec 1.9TD) and add some under the body too to keep wind drag to a minimum. There's a lot that can be done to improve aerodynamics, even "seal" up serious gaps between body panels on the car (something that car manufacturers are now starting to do on their "eco" models i.e. Chevy Cruze Eco)
 

GoFaster

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Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
So you're putting the '98 Jetta (AHU) engine into the '94 Golf?

It will be a dead simple swap because those two cars are the same platform. It will go straight in. What that also means is that the fuel consumption can be expected to be almost the same as the '98 Jetta had to begin with, since the Golf is basically the same car without the trunk (which makes only an insignificant difference).

As far as the transmission is concerned, what you can do is install a taller 5th gear. O2A and O2J have the same transmission internals, the stuff inside is all interchangeable. You can do the swap with the transmission in the car, but if the transmission is out of the car, it's a no-brainer to do it at that time. I think you already have the 3.16 final drive in that transmission. (Mk4 and later is 3.39)
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
none, 2014 Chevy Volt, 1988 Bolens DGT1700H
By the way my goal is 70-80MPG! :)
Under what operating conditions?
Stock B4 Passats have returned 78 mpg (500 mile route) and 82 mpg (250 mile) in economy competitions, stock B5.5 Passats 65+ mpg (110 mile).
Those aren't everyday averages (52 for the B4s, 36 for the B5.5), but in observed competitions, on open roads, obeying speed limits (max and min), no drafting, no engine-off-coasting (or else disqualification) and driven specifically for fuel economy, that's what already has been done.
A stock A3 should already be capable of high 70s mpg.

It's not what you drive, it's how you drive it.
<edit> p.s.: In my opinion Ecomodder has too much emphasis on modder, and not enough on 'eco'.<end>
 
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compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
Springfield VA
TDI
... None :S
Would fitting automatic nozzles with higher pop pressures result in better fuel economy (at the cost of power)?

-J
 

G3TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
CA
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1994 Golf TDI http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=305898
Under what operating conditions?
Stock B4 Passats have returned 78 mpg (500 mile route) and 82 mpg (250 mile) in economy competitions, stock B5.5 Passats 65+ mpg (110 mile).
Those aren't everyday averages (52 for the B4s, 36 for the B5.5), but in observed competitions, on open roads, obeying speed limits (max and min), no drafting, no engine-off-coasting (or else disqualification) and driven specifically for fuel economy, that's what already has been done.
A stock A3 should already be capable of high 70s mpg.

It's not what you drive, it's how you drive it.
<edit> p.s.: In my opinion Ecomodder has too much emphasis on modder, and not enough on 'eco'.<end>
Not sure what speeds and such you are talking about in these "economy competitions" do you have links to these? Obviously those are not any common or every day normal figures, the only VW TDI I am aware of returning anything like 80 MPG without "trying" is the VW Lupo & Audi A2 1.2 TDIs. I am not doubting your statement merely interested in more information :)

As for Ecomodder, it has it's value but it's not without reason I chose to post here :) but the other side of that coin is with an open mind one can learn something everywhere, for instance I most definitely was not aware of the value of Cd (and Cd.A for that matter!) vs. weight. I learned a lot of that from there :)

I want to get in the 70 MPG without trying (every day) and 80 MPG when really trying on longer drives :)
 

G3TDI

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CA
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1994 Golf TDI http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=305898
So you're putting the '98 Jetta (AHU) engine into the '94 Golf?

It will be a dead simple swap because those two cars are the same platform. It will go straight in. What that also means is that the fuel consumption can be expected to be almost the same as the '98 Jetta had to begin with, since the Golf is basically the same car without the trunk (which makes only an insignificant difference).
Correct I chose that (Mk3/AHU) because I didn't want to start with the ALH block I already have as it is "just a block" and no extras and yeah the Mk4 setup is just more headache.

As for the Jetta vs. Golf yes I am aware of it but when you really start to push the limits every lb counts and the Golf is definitely lighter, but that is not the whole story, I just do not want a Jetta (sorry Jetta owners! :)) I prefer a Golf along with I want to try this both the technical and paperwork aspect of it. I have a Eurovan I might do it to also if this is a success. Just to be clear both the Golf 1994 and Jetta 1998 are "new to me" as of last week, found them 24 hours apart at good prices and locally, they even happened to be the same color and both with sunroofs so perfect for parts too!

As far as the transmission is concerned, what you can do is install a taller 5th gear. O2A and O2J have the same transmission internals, the stuff inside is all interchangeable. You can do the swap with the transmission in the car, but if the transmission is out of the car, it's a no-brainer to do it at that time. I think you already have the 3.16 final drive in that transmission. (Mk4 and later is 3.39)
Yeah I already sold the ABA & it's transmission on Saturday so the 94 Golf is empty under the hood right now. I want the whole AHU powertrain, as a package. But I still want to go through the AHU engine and make it nice and fresh before I proceed.
 

G3TDI

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CA
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1994 Golf TDI http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=305898
Under what operating conditions?
Stock B4 Passats have returned 78 mpg (500 mile route) and 82 mpg (250 mile) in economy competitions, stock B5.5 Passats 65+ mpg (110 mile).
Those aren't everyday averages (52 for the B4s, 36 for the B5.5), but in observed competitions, on open roads, obeying speed limits (max and min), no drafting, no engine-off-coasting (or else disqualification) and driven specifically for fuel economy, that's what already has been done.
A stock A3 should already be capable of high 70s mpg.
Do you have more info about these 78 & 82 MPG Passats? I would be interested in reading more about it. You're not talking about driving 35-45MPH are you? I see that type of "habits" too at times, and while it's interesting to see how high you can get, I think it's a tad ridiculous when such low speeds. As it's a whole different ball game then..

I would think 70-80MPG is a fairly high goal found this when searching the web for some info on the cars you mention
http://media.vw.com/press_releases/...cord-for-lowest-fuel-consumption-at-58-82-mpg
 
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G3TDI

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1994 Golf TDI http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=305898
Trying to figure out what to do about seats & battery.

Don't really like racing seats for daily use, but would def love their weight. Same goes for batteries like Deka & Braille, would love one of those 6 lbs ones but not sure if those would work for a diesel?
 
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