Is this "runaway"?

gerardrjj

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Location
Mesa, AZ
TDI
'04 Golf GL
After a pierced oil pan an a blown stock turbo I've completed the job of getting my car road-worthy. It's an '04 Golf TDI PD 1.9 (BEW) with 5 speed tiptronic (09A).
While road testing the car and during a shakedown trip of ~115 miles I'm getting a new issue:

Seemingly randomly the car will act like it shut off for about ½ a second, engine power dies off smoke from the back, not thick, and a clicking/rattling sound like a ball rattling in a can three or four times type noise. After the ½ second power resumes and we drive on. This is not major electrical: AC fan, lights and gauges are not affected.
I don't notice the tach even react to the event it is so fast.

The turbo was upgrade to a VNT-17/22
There is no tune on the ECU yet.
No CEL and a "read" on my OBDII scanner shows no faults.
This has only happened at freeway speeds of 70+, at 75 with cruise control active seems to be the most frequent incident rate usually on flats or cresting a hill.
Each episode is slightly different, I don't always hear the rattle and it does also happen under foot throttle control but I've not had it happen under 60MPH.
Over the entire trip I think there were 6 to 8 incidents of this.

From the location of the noise (far as I can tell while driving) and its function I'm thinking the rattle type noise is the ASV tossing itself closed and open rapidly.

Does this seem like an issue where the turbo is putting out more boost in either spike or creep than the stock map is expecting for the load so the car tries to end the over-pressure by closing down air intake?

The black (looks to me from inside) smoke would indicate to me a low-air situation. There are only two air controls I know of: ASV and turbo speed via VNT. The turbo wouldn't spool down this fast and still work so I think this is the ASV.

Does all this sound like creep/runaway scenario? If so will the tune of the ECU that is in the works(mail) resolve this with the proper MAP and map installed?
If not, does anyone have any other ideas? My first thought was to disconnect the ASV and see if I can reproduce the issue. My fear is that if I'm right and the hiccup doesn't happen that I may damage something. Theoretically closing the throttle should end the event since ECU would terminate fuel injection, right?
 

LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
No that's not a runaway. Sounds like something is closing for whatever reason (ASV)... A runaway is when the engines consumes it's own oil and runs until it's either stalled out, or blows itself to bits.
 

gerardrjj

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Location
Mesa, AZ
TDI
'04 Golf GL
Thanks.
I'd "meant" to go put "or surge" in the title as well as runaway seemed least likely.

I don't know the mechanics of the ASV other than I've read that it is normally open other than just after the key is turned to "off".
It seems the mechanism set up so the ASV stays open to me so I was wondering if there's a creep issue is the ASV closing to resolve that. If I disconnect ASV and this is creep I'm guessing the next symptom would be limp mode, with the ASV open all the time.

For troubleshooting:
Should I just ignore it for now hoping this an ECU learning period since I'm less than 300 miles with the new turbo and the intake manifold cleaned up (there was lots of caked soot).
Whether I ignore it or not, what are the chances that an ECU re-map (and 3 bar MAP sensor) will resolve this?

If I do anything my first instinct is to disconnect the ASV and see if the issue goes away, then at least I know what system I'm troubleshooting. But like I stated earlier I'm worried about the negative result of disconnecting it.
 

SoTxBill

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 14, 2000
Location
its not the base, its the additives!!
TDI
13 passatdsg 10 jetdsg, 09 jetdsg, 2006 jetdsg, 2001Jet, 96passat, 86jet, 81 jet, 78pickup all vw diesel.
After a pierced oil pan an a blown stock turbo I've completed the job of getting my car road-worthy. It's an '04 Golf TDI PD 1.9 (BEW) with 5 speed tiptronic (09A).
While road testing the car and during a shakedown trip of ~115 miles I'm getting a new issue:

Seemingly randomly the car will act like it shut off for about ½ a second, engine power dies off smoke from the back, not thick, and a clicking/rattling sound like a ball rattling in a can three or four times type noise. After the ½ second power resumes and we drive on. This is not major electrical: AC fan, lights and gauges are not affected.
I don't notice the tach even react to the event it is so fast.

The turbo was upgrade to a VNT-17/22
There is no tune on the ECU yet.
No CEL and a "read" on my OBDII scanner shows no faults.
This has only happened at freeway speeds of 70+, at 75 with cruise control active seems to be the most frequent incident rate usually on flats or cresting a hill.
Each episode is slightly different, I don't always hear the rattle and it does also happen under foot throttle control but I've not had it happen under 60MPH.
Over the entire trip I think there were 6 to 8 incidents of this.

From the location of the noise (far as I can tell while driving) and its function I'm thinking the rattle type noise is the ASV tossing itself closed and open rapidly.

Does this seem like an issue where the turbo is putting out more boost in either spike or creep than the stock map is expecting for the load so the car tries to end the over-pressure by closing down air intake?

The black (looks to me from inside) smoke would indicate to me a low-air situation. There are only two air controls I know of: ASV and turbo speed via VNT. The turbo wouldn't spool down this fast and still work so I think this is the ASV.

Does all this sound like creep/runaway scenario? If so will the tune of the ECU that is in the works(mail) resolve this with the proper MAP and map installed?
If not, does anyone have any other ideas? My first thought was to disconnect the ASV and see if I can reproduce the issue. My fear is that if I'm right and the hiccup doesn't happen that I may damage something. Theoretically closing the throttle should end the event since ECU would terminate fuel injection, right?


Not an electrical problem somewhere.. A relay clicking, Only you heard the noise. My first thought by your description. Bad ignition switch?
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
For your other questions, I wouldn't ignore it and I think it unlikely an ECU re-map would make it any better.
 
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