If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can't a chip tuner do the same?

[JPuck]

If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue, but I'm pretty sure I've heard of people having their ECU's reflashed by VW techs. Maybe that's just from my 1.8t days, but I seem to recall them doing that occassionally. So my question is, if they can do that (presumedly without having to remove a chip from the board), why can't a chip tuner like Upsolute do the same? Why does the tuner have to remove a chip in order to reflash it? It would seem that in theory, if VW can reprogram the ECU by hooking up a harness to it, then a chip tuner should be able to do the same.

Am I misunderstanding things? Is it a technical limitation? Is it a factor of not knowing the code well enough to do it the same way VW can?

 

[Davin]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

The method by which the ECU reprograms the flash involves encryption, and pretty hairy encryption at that. The ECU has to be unlocked before it can be flashed... this is why the programs that VW techs use are strictly controlled by VWoA... they don't want details of the encryption scheme getting out to the general public.

BUT... even though it's a difficult problem, I'm sure that it's not intractible. There could even be little programmers working at this problem even as we speak...

 

[JPuck]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

Nice.

It seemed to me to be an ideal solution, provided it could be found. If the memory space is adequate enough to acommodate the new program, not having to open the ECU, unsolder anything, or add anything, would be GREAT!!

It seems inevitable to me. All we need is to find someone who knows about these things. Actually my neighbor who is a programming PHD (or masters, at least) works at Bosch, so maybe I can pick his brain

 

[TEXAS_TDI]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

Originally posted by weedeater:
I thought the Upsolute chip was simply a set of ROM tables separate from the microprocessor. I thought the ECU program was in the microprocessor and could be changed only by VW.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The UP chip is your factory chip that is flashed with the UP program. Once flashed, your UP chip can't be flashed by VW and can't be detected by VAG-1551 and VAG-1552.

 

[JPuck]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

Right... but that still doesn't explain why if VW can flash their program "from the outside," why Upsolute can't do the same. Encryption is the answer, I guess... but I am curious about the answer to the previous poster's comments regarding ROM tables vs. microprocessor code.

 

[Eric Maurier]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

Originally posted by DavinATL:
There could even be little programmers working at this problem even as we speak...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Well those little programmers may have cracked the M5.9 but the TDI is another thing... BMW diags are definitely more rewarding

 

[car54]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

Originally posted by Eric Maurier:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DavinATL:
There could even be little programmers working at this problem even as we speak...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Well those little programmers may have cracked the M5.9 but the TDI is another thing... BMW diags are definitely more rewarding

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Eric, you must force Uwe to crack the TDI.

 

[weedeater]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

Let us agree on the definition of 'flash'.

'flash' applies to EEPROMS or any other memory device whose data can be erased then reprogrammed.

'burn' applies to PROMs whose data can be written only once.

It was my understanding that the chip that Upsolute (or Wett) replaces is a PROM, not an EEPROM. Therefore it is burned once and that's it. Now, there may be EEPROM on the ECU board that can be flashed, but that's not the same as what these chip makers replace. In my opinion.

 

[JPuck]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

weedeater, I don't think your theory can be correct. The Upsolute "chip" for TDI's is simply a reflashed chip that's already in the ECU. They literally unsolder it, reflash it, and then solder it back again. The chip remains the same... only the programming changes. Some other manufacturers add a new chip or replace one (Wett, APR, etc...). But upsolute reflashes one already in there.

That's why I asked why it was necessary to remove it at all if VW clearly can reflash it without removing it. The answer appears to be encryption...

 

[PWM]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

Older ECUs do have OTP-ROMs (One-Time-Programmable).
Some do have factory programmable flash. (So this cannot be flashed via SW.)

All newer ECUs are fully SW-flashable via the diagnostic bus.
(These are in PD-TDIs and gas cars ..)

 

[weedeater]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

I thought the Upsolute chip was simply a set of ROM tables separate from the microprocessor. I thought the ECU program was in the microprocessor and could be changed only by VW.

 

[TDIIracer]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

Of course almost all VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda TDI ECUS can be flashed, no chip desoldering/soldering needed!
I have a tuning company that only works with this method, and we´ve flashed already quite a few TDI´s.
No trace, no warranty issues, upgrade or downgrade software at any time, etc..

 

[RED]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

What would the name of that tuning company be? and where can we find more info? Website?

 

[JPuck]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

My personal reply from TDIracer explained that it appears that none of the U.S. tuners do it this way...

Surely if they've cracked the encryption in Europe, it wouldn't be that hard to explain it to someone over here!

 

[Vhunter]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

I think you are talking about 2 different things.. Flashing the ECU, as in what VW would do, puts new code in for what one might call the operateting system.

What the chip tuners are doing is changeing the data tables stored in other chips, which contain the engine operational parameters.
In other words, they change the boost, fuel, injection advance, and smoke maps.. NOT the VAG operating system.

FWIW, thats my $0.02 (opinion) on it.

Drive ON.

 

[PWM]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

There is only one flash chip in the ECU because of cost resons..
(For the same reson some older ECUs did use two cheap chips ..)

Anyway the program and data is stored on the same programmable chip(s) - So both are reprogrammed simultaneously.
(Except the boot code etc. which is on mask-ROM.)

This is something that would be very nice to have in VAG-COM

 

[jim wilson]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

Originally posted by TDIIracer:
Of course almost all VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda TDI ECUS can be flashed, no chip desoldering/soldering needed!
I have a tuning company that only works with this method, and we´ve flashed already quite a few TDI´s.
No trace, no warranty issues, upgrade or downgrade software at any time, etc..

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, what is the name of the company???

Where ever it is.

 

[clipper]

Re: If a VW tech can reflash the ECU, why can\'t a chip tuner do the same?

Hi
regarding the chip types used.
Older ECU's use standard EPROM's which you have to remove, burn and insert again. More recent versions of ECU's all use eeproms.
So it is tru the VW tech guys can re-program parts of the program (mostly part of a table)
next thye have to recalculate the part checksum for the table and also the full checksum for whole eeprom.
As I read the forum it seems that not many of the US made chips are protected against other making a copy of a chip?
Look at www.evc.de for more information. They make all the parts needed..
Best reg
Erik