Has anyone tuned using a cylinder pressure sensor?

[DarrenUK]

A quick post to ask if anyone has used a cylinder pressure sensor to tune a tdi.

VW are planning to fit pressure sensing glow plugs to some of their range this year, for closed loop combustion management, so I guess the price of the plugs is set to fall (hopefully they will fit other tdis).

I've come across a number of companies producing GP sensors for the engine development/scientific sector also companies supplying pressure sensors and logging equipment with PC interfaces for medium and large industrial diesel engines.

I also found this site who claim.

"We have worked hard with suppliers and developers to bring the cost of this equipment down to a level that is accessible to all, not just the pros"

http://www.tfxengine.com/software7.html

No pricing which is always a bit worrying.

With this kit a decent chip tuner should be able to achieve great results.

 

[TDIMeister]

It's definitely interesting technology; from what I can see of the page you linked to it follows some of the current state-of-the-art practise, although from only looking at pictures I cannot comment on strength of the back-end code.

If the cost of the total system can be brought down, it would be a useful tuning tool to someone who knows how to interpret the information it's giving out.

The key will be to ensure that the system works to the peak cylinder pressures in turbocharged Diesel engines, which can be over 3 times that of NA gasoline engines. Tuned, highly boosted turbodiesels can be operating at over 220 bar PCP against about 60 bar for NA gasoline engines, roughly double the latter figure for forced-induction gassers.

 

[TDIMeister]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. How true -- there's so much one can tell just from cylinder pressure data.

From this one screenshot I can determine many things about this engine that are not automatically obvious:

For example, knowing the IHP per cylinder and the total IHP, I can see that the engine in the above screenshot example has 8 cylinders. From the IMEP, IHP and RPM I can determine the displacement of the engine (7.65 L). From the pressure trace and VE, I can determine the compression ratio to be about 12.5:1, meaning it would most likely be a naturally-aspirated engine.

Peak cylinder pressure at this operating point is 1420 PSI, or 98 bar; it sits somewhere between the 60 and 120 bar I quoted for standard naturally-aspirated and turbocharged gasoline engines, but this is hardly a standard engine; it's a very highly-tuned motor -- the displacement and power level suggests it can be drag racing engine.

The peak cylinder pressure occuring at around 8° ATDC also suggests this is a highly-developed engine.

 

[DarrenUK]

The key will be to ensure that the system works to the peak cylinder pressures in turbocharged Diesel engines, which can be over 3 times that of NA gasoline engines. Tuned, highly boosted turbodiesels can be operating at over 220 bar PCP against about 60 bar for NA gasoline engines, roughly double the latter figure for forced-induction gassers.

They offer glow plug mounted sensors

http://www.tfxengine.com/SensorsOverall.html

also appear to be more than happy to cater for customer requirements.

there's so much one can tell just from cylinder pressure data.

I would agree. I've been trying to gather pressure data from standard Tdi engines.

I posted links to some papers at
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=205462

Anyone know where I can find any more?

 

[TDIMeister]

Anyone know where I can find any more?

Try: http://www.google.com/search?q=tdi+filetype:pdf

 

[Fix_Until_Broke]

Ahh yes my thermo and IC engines classes re-visited

So, how do we get crank shaft position data so I can make one of these plots on a car.

 

[ChippedNotBroken]

Did anyone ever do this?

 

[dieseleux]

I send email to TFXEngine...
Price is not for home mecanical but i thinks is good package for serious tunner.



Dieseleux

 

[ChippedNotBroken]

I send email to TFXEngine...
Price is not for home mecanical but i thinks is good package for serious tunner.



Dieseleux

I emailed them last week, but never received a reply. I suppose I could call.

 

[dieseleux]

I emailed them last week, but never received a reply. I suppose I could call.

I email sunday and monday pm i receive reply.


Dieseleux

 

[TDIsyncro]

if you go this route, they want $1000/sensor plus 3500 for dataloger. Good for pros and buisness..bit outa reach for most of us here unless a tuner buys a set and offers it as a service for fee.

 

[brum]

The BERU PSG (pressure sensor glowplug) are out there. Did someone fit one of these in the older TDI engines?

As far as I know there are PSG 001, PSG 002 and PSG 003. Prices are blow 200EUR. And this is affordable. But couldn't find the specification for them nowhere. What I know is:

Technical data

Operating temperature -40 – 140°C (max. 150°C)
Pressure range 0 – 200 bar (max. 210 bar)

Sensor

Power supply (Vdd) 5.0 V or 3.3 V
Output signal ratio metric
Bandwidth 0 to 5 kHz
Accuracy ± 2%

Glow function

Current 60sec <10 A
Temperature after 60sec > 980°C
Max. temperature 1100°C

And the PSG 002 is fitted to the 3.0 TDI VAG engine. The PSG 003 may be fitted to the 2.0 16V TDI engines, but I'm not sure about that.

 

[gth]

And the PSG 002 is fitted to the 3.0 TDI VAG engine. The PSG 003 may be fitted to the 2.0 16V TDI engines, but I'm not sure about that.

Thanks for the lead! I've been trying to figure out if they'll fit an ALH for a while but can't seem to run across one without ordering expensive stuff at random.

If anyone has one I'll even settle for a good picture
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=249011

 

[brum]

One solution proposed in other forum is to use the PSG 001 (Opel Insignia) and create adapter to mount it on our engines. The PSG 001 should be with thread 9x1, our are 10x1. Don't know if it would be possible to create such adapter as still I'm looking for the PSG lengths. I've send an email to BERU asking about different PSGs and their sizes. We'll see if they reply.

 

[brum]

Some info about the Opel Insigna PSG glow plug:
* Cone Pitch: 93°
* Failure Moment: 22 Nm
* Fitting Depth: 35 mm
* Glow Plug Type: After-glow capable
* Glow Plug Type: Pencil-type Glow Plug
* Overall Length: 179,9 mm
* Spanner Size: 12 mm
* Thread Size: M 9x1,0
* Tightening Torque: 12 Nm
* Voltage: 4,4 V

Taken from http://seekpart24.com/opel/insignia-sports-tourer-08/2-0-biturbo-cdti-11/glow-plug-100152. Based on it length it should fit in an adapter as the VP TDI (AFN Passat B5) is with 92mm overall length.

 

[Syncrogreg]

A 10x1 would be nice... I'm looking for one too!

Let me know if you find anything!

Greg