Has anyone tried a 10mm IP in an automatic?

[LurkerMike]

Has anyone tried a 10mm IP in an automatic instead of the original 11mm pump?

 

[oldpoopie]

why would you downgrade the motor? Key to power AND effeciency is injection pressure and quality. 11mm improves that.

 

[cheeba]

I'm sure he has a reason. . .

 

[oldpoopie]

thats what im afraid of!

 

[J double R]

well, if you had two TDIs, one auto, one manual, (like listed in his sig ) and you wanted to upgrade teh 5speed but didnt care about the automatic, it'd be a nice free upgrade

 

[oldpoopie]

I suppose you could swap smaller pump and stock manual nozzles into the auto

 

[Syndicate]

The only thing I could think of is to save fuel? But I think the efficiency would come into question, which would probably negate the savings in the first place.

 

[Syndicate]

The ontario forum listed that "The Source" had 11mm for 345 or so last night. I dont know if they ship but...

 

[LurkerMike]

The only thing I could think of is to save fuel? But I think the efficiency would come into question, which would probably negate the savings in the first place.

The automatics have a fuel cooler in the return line that is located under the passenger seat.

Why?

Because of the huge amount of fuel being bypassed. There has got to be some parasitic loss in running the 11mm pump on small orifice injectors vs a 10mm pump with big hole injectors.

My automatic, Whitey, is RC2 with KERMA 357's. It runs like it should have from the factory and gets 2-3 mpg better fuel economy than it did when we bought it bone stock. But it averages 34 - 36 mpg with my lead foot. It has seen 42 mpg once on a long trip with the cruise set to 55 mph. 38 is the best it has ever gotten since that one trip that put me to sleep.

My thinking is the 11mm pump was selected for the automatics because the injector orifices were so much smaller than the ones on the 5 speeds. By going to a larger injector and a smaller pump, cruising efficiency should be improved some. Granted, this is at a loss of maximum power, but RC2 and 357's are the most the poor old 01M could probably handle with my size 14's stomping the pedals. That rules out larger nozzles that would make the 11mm pump run more efficiently.

I'm wondering if anyone has tested these ideas in an auto?

 

[J double R]

ive never heard of anyone who has downgraded their IP, ever. let us know how it goes, mike.

 

[LurkerMike]

ive never heard of anyone who has downgraded their IP, ever. let us know how it goes, mike.

I don't want to be the first, at least not right now... that's why I asked.

 

[GoFaster]

I haven't done exactly as described, but I did drive my manual Passat (10mm pump) around with the small auto-tranny injector nozzles for a few days during a nozzle-cleaning exercise on my "real" nozzles. IT SUCKED. No power, and cold starting (happened in winter) was very marginal. Fuel consumption was good but only because the car could barely get out of its own way. Also, I dared not rev the engine beyond 2500 rpm, because I was afraid the back pressure from the too-small nozzles might do something bad to the injector pump (over-pressure) at higher revs.

If you have bigger injectors (and the right software), it should work and run okay, but WHY?

 

[mycruiseagent]

A mother-in-law with an automatic?

 

[Syndicate]

I wonder what reason that VW put in the bigger pump, I'm thinking something about the way the automatic shifts and asks for fuel?

Maybe its something like this...

The automatic upon starting requires a bigger IP to push the mininal fuel requirements with the extra drag the automatic puts on the engine.
Or simply in the unlikey situation that somebody thinks about it and decides to undertake what your thinking. Perhaps a reward for buying both an Auto and 5spd! lol

 

[SilveR316]

My mother has an automatic TDI beetle... with a brand spankin new 11mm pump...


Am I too greedy for wondering the same thing?

 

[J double R]

taking advantage of teh old people is wrong!

 

[mojogoes]

The automatics have a fuel cooler in the return line that is located under the passenger seat.

Why?

Because of the huge amount of fuel being bypassed. There has got to be some parasitic loss in running the 11mm pump on small orifice injectors vs a 10mm pump with big hole injectors.

My automatic, Whitey, is RC2 with KERMA 357's. It runs like it should have from the factory and gets 2-3 mpg better fuel economy than it did when we bought it bone stock. But it averages 34 - 36 mpg with my lead foot. It has seen 42 mpg once on a long trip with the cruise set to 55 mph. 38 is the best it has ever gotten since that one trip that put me to sleep.

My thinking is the 11mm pump was selected for the automatics because the injector orifices were so much smaller than the ones on the 5 speeds. By going to a larger injector and a smaller pump, cruising efficiency should be improved some. Granted, this is at a loss of maximum power, but RC2 and 357's are the most the poor old 01M could probably handle with my size 14's stomping the pedals. That rules out larger nozzles that would make the 11mm pump run more efficiently.

I'm wondering if anyone has tested these ideas in an auto?

The 11mm and .158 orifices/injectors were chosen for the US/Can market because of your emission regulations = 90hp for less emissions than the Euro equivalent e.g 10mm and .184's which give more Nox/smoke output.

 

[mojogoes]

Edited by Mojo.

 

[mojogoes]

I think its reasonable to think that with said 11mm pump and .158's nozzles its very plausible that some damage would be caused to the pump.........i know that TDI RS's 12mm pump was damaged in this way when putting in some 184's just to clean and balance up the R520's he was using........it was reported that the back pressure with the smaller holes caused the catastrophic demise of the pump.

 

[LurkerMike]

I think its reasonable to think that with said 11mm pump and .158's nozzles its very plausible that some damage would be caused to the pump.........i know that TDI RS's 12mm pump was damaged in this way when putting in some 184's just to clean and balance up the R520's he was using........it was reported that the back pressure with the smaller holes caused the catastrophic demise of the pump.

But the 11mm pump and .158's nozzles are FACTORY in every North American automatic. I see your point about at least greater pump wear.

If I did switch my auto to a 10mm and .184's (or similar), I would expect very little loss in power and better fuel economy. Tuning for this combo would probably make it even better.

Sure, I want better fuel economy, but not at the cost of a loss of power. Fortunately out TDI's lend themselves well to the these seemingly contradictory goals.

I fear my 01M would not tolerate nozzles that one one select for an 11mm pump on a 5-speed. So the opposite seems logical to me, size the pump for nozzles being used as if it were a 5-speed.

Who here would run an 11mm pump on a 5 speed with .158 or even .184 nozzles? Would that not be an insanely stupid mod combination?

Then why does no one seem to question it on the automatics?

 

[mojogoes]

Quote..
If I did switch my auto to a 10mm and .184's (or similar), I would expect very little loss in power and better fuel economy. Tuning for this combo would probably make it even better.

I also get your point but there seams to be a little confliction of what your trying to achieve........is it more mpg or more power.....using a 11mm ip plus .184 / .205 nozzles plus a good tune or adjustments would give you both but both these characteristics would rely mainly on ones driving style but both are acheivable.

If you go wilder with fueling your mpg drops off even with careful steady driving styles.

 

[ini]

Surely the 11mm pump and smaller nozzles is an attempt to acheive better atomization of the fuel.

Giving a faster/more powerful/advanced burn for an equal or less volume of fuel, thus increasing the efficiency and offsetting the auto losses.

With the amount of research that went into the original VE engines i cannot believe that it would be a mistake or an oversight.

 

[Rub87]

The 11mm and .158 orifices/injectors were chosen for the US/Can market because of your emission regulations = 90hp for less emissions than the Euro equivalent e.g 10mm and .184's which give more Nox/smoke output.

I would just think the 11mm had more NOx emission than the 10mm with same nozzle size beacause of the faster injection of fuel, higher PCP and so higher PCTs wich create the eeevil NOx

 

[LurkerMike]

Surely the 11mm pump and smaller nozzles is an attempt to acheive better atomization of the fuel.

Giving a faster/more powerful/advanced burn for an equal or less volume of fuel, thus increasing the efficiency and offsetting the auto losses.

With the amount of research that went into the original VE engines i cannot believe that it would be a mistake or an oversight.

I would just think the 11mm had more NOx emission than the 10mm with same nozzle size beacause of the faster injection of fuel, higher PCP and so higher PCTs wich create the eeevil NOx

But the 11mm pump is exclusive to the North American market automatics.

VW only used the 10mm pumps in all other markets, manual or automatic transmission.

The 01M automatic has a lock-up torque converter which stops all transmission slippage on highway cruises. And while the 01M still has a heavier spinning mass and pumping losses, the typical 5-10 mpg of fuel economy lost to the "rare and desirable" automatics in North America just does not add up to me. I believe the 11mm injector pump and nozzle size combination are a larger part of the economy loss than most have considered.

I would say the average stock North American market A4 TDI 5-speed gets around 45mpg highway and the 01M version gets around 38 mpg. And the average 5-speed A4 TDI will beat the average 01M A4 TDI every time, any way you want to race them. While I agree the greatest reason for this disparity is the 01M is a piece of crap transmission, I do not believe it is solely responsible.

 

[Rub87]

Maybe they put timing very late, to eliminate almost all NOx, and then with the long injection duration due the tiny nozzles you inject way to late for economy but perfect for NOx reduction, and with the 90power level you don't get soot anyway because you inject such small quantities..

Life is a matter of compromises..

 

[mojogoes]

But the 11mm pump is exclusive to the North American market automatics.

VW only used the 10mm pumps in all other markets, manual or automatic transmission.

The 01M automatic has a lock-up torque converter which stops all transmission slippage on highway cruises. And while the 01M still has a heavier spinning mass and pumping losses, the typical 5-10 mpg of fuel economy lost to the "rare and desirable" automatics in North America just does not add up to me. I believe the 11mm injector pump and nozzle size combination are a larger part of the economy loss than most have considered.

I would say the average stock North American market A4 TDI 5-speed gets around 45mpg highway and the 01M version gets around 38 mpg. And the average 5-speed A4 TDI will beat the average 01M A4 TDI every time, any way you want to race them. While I agree the greatest reason for this disparity is the 01M is a piece of crap transmission, I do not believe it is solely responsible.

Tell me having never driven this combo n/a auto.....if one uses large holes say .216 / pp764 and with out remapping it or altering the pump in any way.....what do they drive like from a gear changing point of veiw/stand-point.

I have a feeling that they surge and snap and decelorate more than they would do with the excess fueling.

 

[nicklockard]

I think the 11mm IP and smallish nozzles were paired up with automatics in order to give decent low rpm partial throttle response.

I'd bet a 10mm in an automatic with stock nozzles would feel like a dog.

 

[TDIinTexas]

who has the ability to try it??

I'm interested in knowing the results

 

[AUGSX]

Before my tune, my car ran just fine. Now with the tune I am waiting for the 01M to just blow up. It hasn't with about 6k miles with mods and tune. Oh ya read sig for mods.

 

[LurkerMike]

Before my tune, my car ran just fine. Now with the tune I am waiting for the 01M to just blow up. It hasn't with about 6k miles with mods and tune. Oh ya read sig for mods.

Do you know about where your tune is in power?

I think the RC2 I got is around 120hp give or take and with the KERMA 357's I would guess I would dyno around 125-130 hp.