Has anyone checked the stock power output?

JC

Active member
Joined
Apr 13, 1999
Location
Lisbon - Portugal
Has anyone checked the power figures at the wheels ( in a rolling road test or something like that ). I´ve taken a Seat Ibiza 110hp to test the compression and power and the REAL power was 126hp. This a completly stock car (apart from the Mobil 1 oil ) that was used used from mile 0. It has now 50.000 km and has been driven mostly in open and free from traffic roads.
I checked with a friend of mine at VW Germany and he told me it was possible just because cars in Germany are taxed acording to power and polution so sometimes manufacturers have to state lower power figures to make prices competitive.
 

colucci

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 1998
Location
MPLS, MN USA
TDI
Jetta 1998 Green
Check out my topic "Dyno Day results". I measured 96 HP at the wheels which translates to somewhere between 115 and 128 engine HP depending on which conversion you use. Conservatively, I peaked at 208 ft-lbs of torque! Jon Bartlett shows 159 ft-lbs and 90 HP at the wheels. Awesome results for no chip!

D'nardo

------------------
Smokin into the new millenium...
98 Jetta TDI mit Wetterauer chip
 

Craig

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 8, 1999
Location
Kitchener, Ont., Canada
Wilderness is right Mickey. Utah is synonymous with wilderness. Would love to visit Zion canyon. I saw a book with pix and there was this road winding up from the bottom. Incredible! I can just see a tiny yellow spec racing up from way below. Hey that must be Mickey!
 

Sooty

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 1999
Location
Midlands, UK
The figures that all manufacturers quote is flywheel, that’s why you the output values are identical (for the same engine) in all of the cars that it may be fitted into.

Take the good old 1.9 TDI (90hp) engine that would also have been fitted the Passat, Sharan, Seat’s etc, there is also a Syncro version available (unfortunately not in the UK) All of these vehicles quote 90hp 149lb/ft, they all have different gear ratios, top speeds etc.

Now are you seriously trying to tell me that the same engine used in each of these vehicles would have the same power at the wheels. Wouldn’t the Syncro absorb a little more power? The Sharan with its shorter gearing have a better sprint value?

Most (not all) Dyno’s rolling roads what ever… do measure at the wheel, but they compensate for the gearing. Have you not noticed that when the operator types in your name etc, they also select what vehicle from a list, this list has typical transmission loss values which are added the wheel value, that’s what you get on your printouts.

When you take your car to be dyno’d, make sure you know what reading your getting, yes it is measured at the wheel, but the values are adjusted for the flywheel, and that’s what you get on your printouts, so that they can be compared with the original quoted.

As for the Germans lying about engine output….. Sorry I got distracted for a moment then by that flying pig…… Don’t you think that all country’s who sell these cars test them, and that they all happen to have missed the fact that the cars are more powerful than stated, and as such could miss out on collecting more Tax from you?



------------------
 
M

mickey

Guest
Sooty: Everything you said is perfectly logical and reasonable, and I agree 100%. But please explain why several people have run their 90 hp TDIs on dynos and report "uncorrected" hp figures at, or very near, 90 hp? Go back to the top of the thread, and look at the results. This is about the third thread where people have posted their uncorrected dyno results and somebody else has insisted the 90 hp is "at the flywheel", all in the same thread, with no attempt to reconcile the two concepts. Am I missing something? The Germans are not lying about anything. On the contrary, I just think its possible they are the only ones advertising "honest" information. Everybody else is lying, since nobody drives down the road on a test bench. In the real world engines drive wheels.

-mickey

p.s. I used to own a '94 Nissan Altima, which produced almost exactly the same torque as my stock TDI did, on paper. In practice my TDI had one hell of a lot more torque than that Nissan did! (Yes, I know it needs to rev higher. But regardless of the rpms, the TDI is stronger.) I'd bet dollars to donuts that the bench horsepower and torque of a North American '99 TDI are a lot higher than 90/155! Check out the results posted by colucci and John Bartlett.

p.p.s. John and colucci: Are you sure the dynos you used were reporting direct, uncorrected info? It's possible the computer already "corrected" for your drivetrain and then you applied a second correction. In that case, 90 hp at the flywheel is correct and I am going to eat crow. (Well, not really. I can't reach the correct conclusion if my data is faulty, now can I?)
 
M

mickey

Guest
I've said several times that I think the 90 hp figure quoted by VW is "on the ground" and not a flywheel number, like most manufacturers use. Nobody seems to believe me. I'm just a lonely voice in the wilderness.


-mickey
 

JC

Active member
Joined
Apr 13, 1999
Location
Lisbon - Portugal
I´m sorry guys, but I´ve taken two other cars - in this case a Ford Ka ( very small car with 1.3 60hp Endura gas engine) and a Fiat Punto 1.4 GT ( Fiat 1.4liter turbocharged 136hp gas engine ) - to the same rolling road and the power figures on the ground were 61hp and 134hp.
Tested again my 1.9 TDi and there they were the all 126hp I´ve mentioned before. I don´t believe that the rolling road computer gives any kind of "discount" from the figures it measures... and it´s a Bosch rolling road...
So... I do believe in the "cheating" - good for us - made by VW...
 

Sooty

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 1999
Location
Midlands, UK
I use two different dyno’s one only gives wheel values, the other, I do not need to correct because the computer does it for you.

Its possible that some people are getting the computer printouts and then correcting the already autocorrected values, hence 110 would read as 132 (assuming 20% correction). I apologise if that’s not the case, but I’ve been to some dyno places where some of the operatives aren’t sure if they could measure a diesel’s output! Just look them in the eye for signs of life, to see if anybody is home


All I know is that in the UK all the people who I know who have had their cars dyno’d do it before and after any mod’s and in every case the figures before reflect the original +- 1 or 2 hp.

JC if your car is an original 110hp and is getting a genuine 126hp then great, keep that baby. If you chip +30 and do intake + exhaust + 16 + oils etc you should be on for 175hp

The most that I’ve seen a 110hp made up to so far is 157hp

I’m just trying to get my head around how VW produce thousands of 110hp engines, and one gets out with 126hp. 2 or 3hp variance is normal but 16!

JC it could be worth checking how the rolling road that you’re using measures, does it just give a corrected printout of the values etc, if so get the guys who run it to look up the correction figure it should be about 20%

[This message has been edited by Sooty (edited July 31, 1999).]
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
The Dynojet dynamometer that I used at Boston Performance Group did not have any previous memorized listing for any TDI nor any other VW diesels, so no "fudge factor" was possible. The plotted hp curve has a scale identified as "SAE HP". Boston Performance Group's explanation that the HP readings are wheel HP, and not crankshaft / flywheel HP, was repeated almost as a mantra for those dejected souls that had blown small fortunes to P-flow and cat-back their VR6s and had little to show for the expense. I feel confident that my peak of 90.3 HP is actual, on the ground, real HP.

------------------
Jonathan Bartlett
 

lundgrji

Active member
Joined
Mar 3, 1999
Location
Minnesota, USA
There are many variables in the dynomometers, operators, engines, transmissions, gear ratios, correction factors, tire air pressure, fluid temps, ect.. For instance, when was the load cell last calibrated on the dyno, since all it measures is force, or torque, and hp is calculated. Which correction factor was used? STP, standard temp and pressure (68 deg f? and 29.92 "HG?) is usually used in the aftermarket, and is a much higher relative air density than that used for correcting power that auto manufacturers use. This higher rel. air dens. of STP shows several percent more power than those used by auto manufacturers. The more sophisticated formulas used by the manufacturers account for engine friction, and if it's not measured the standard default value is plugged into the formula. To be accurate, the correction factor should be applied to the indicated hp, not brake hp. Subtracting engine friction from the ihp yields bhp.
How accurate were the instruments, and where were they located when measuring the air pressure and temp the engine was actually ingesting? Humidity is another variable.

When I worked at Ford's certification test lab they spent HUGE money on trying to make chassis dyno emissions cells correlate with each other. They would take a correlation vehicle and drive it on different dynos, but even the correlation vehicle was a variable, usually getting more efficient as the miles accumulated. Also, the driver could give you almost any emissions numbers the engineer wanted, without violating the drive trace.
It's quite possible the 90 hp at the wheels is correct, but it could be more, could be less. I've not heard of manufacturers rating the power at the wheels. Wheel hp changes according to the trans and which gear is selected. Transmissions are typically most efficent near the 1:1 ratio.

In summary, the same vehicle tested in many different facilities will yield many different results.
 

jaydhall

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 2, 1999
Location
Aurora Colorado
TDI
2012 Passat SE, 1999 NB, 1999.5 Jetta GLS, 2004 Jetta
I like the speed of mine too. Just today, someone was in a hurry, so I floored it. They could barely keep up! I loved it. I wish I could have told him he was being beaten by a diesel! (I backed off at 30 MPH over the limit. Figured he must get discount pricing on tickets.)

You should have seen my grin! I REALLY like this car.

Mickey, if I see a yellow bettle in SLC when I motor through, I will flag you down and pay $5 for a Wett demo! (That is, if I can catch you.)

Let me know the Flying J's progress. I would not mind filling up there on the way through. I just got 48 MPG city and highway. Putting along at 60MPH (which I violate a LOT. Real hard to keep her going slow.) seems to work! I expect to be real happy on the trip!
 
M

mickey

Guest
The shiny new Flying J is scheduled to open on August 17th. It is just off the Tooele exit from Interstate 80, about 20 miles west of Salt Lake. (Or 30. Or maybe 40. I don't know for sure. I just know I live a long way out here in the boojum trees.) There is a Travel Centers of America truck stop there, too, as well as a Chevron and a Texaco which both sell diesel fuel. (TCOA is cheaper.)

-mickey
 

Gary Miyakawa

Admin Emeritus
Joined
Feb 24, 1999
Location
Roswell, Ga
TDI
1998 NB TDI
A bunch of us are planning to put our cars on a Dyno here in Atlanta on Sept 25. If you are interested, drop me some email and I'll tell you how to sign up. It's going to cost $55 per vehicle for 3 runs. They supply you with a chart and picture of your car on the dyno. It's a pretty first class outfit...

Let me know if there are any takers !

Gary
 

jaydhall

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 2, 1999
Location
Aurora Colorado
TDI
2012 Passat SE, 1999 NB, 1999.5 Jetta GLS, 2004 Jetta
Great! Sounds like I will fill up there. I have one of those TCOA's near me also. Thanks for the information!
 

colinstone

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 25, 1999
Location
Oxford, England
Let me join in the debate. Automotive Developments (AMD) in Kidlington, near Oxford, UK have never ever seen a VW/AG 110 bhp TDI with less than 120 bhp on their rolling road, and say the average output for this engine is 126 bhp. It is a well known fact in UK that this engine is conservatively rated - most magazines easily better the VW official 0 - 60 time of 10.6 seconds. Think about it - if this diesel was as well tuned in standard form as most petrol engines, no one would buy petrol engines and even VW have a lot of capital tied up in petrol engine production.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Indeed the HP descrepencies could be due to TAXES, here in the US, the tax is usually on how much the vehicle weighs whilst overseas quite often in is based on power output. Thereby the manufacturers slip by some of the regulations in order to appeal to a different tax market.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
Lundgrji asked about the load cell to measure the force of the dynamometer. There is none. The simplified mathematical equasion F=MA means that a force can me measured by a known mass and the acceleration of that mass. The Dynamometer rollers have a mass that is stable to within a few thousandth of a percent. Yes, some paint will wear off from tire contact, but that will possibly be offset by the tire rubber collecting in the paints stead. The acceleration of the roller mass is measured by a counter that simply counts the number of rotations of the roller and a quartz oscilator acting as a clock. The number of rotations during a clock count interval is compared to the number of rotations during another, identical duration, interval. The change in rotation count is indicative of acceleration. That value when multiplied by the roller mass mecomes a measurement of the force needed to increase the roller speed. The force is actually an average during the clock interval, but since the clock speeds are often measured in megahertz, the average is quite close.
To the point of subtracting the power transmission losses from the drivetrain and internal engine friction; I could not care less how much power there is at the top of the pistons, I want to know how much is providing motive acceleration. That is still best measured at the wheels.
To the point of gear ratios having an effect on power: I did three runs, third, fourth, and third gear ratios. The power production was nearly identical, 89.0, 89.7, 90.3 hp.
B.P.G. suggested ratios based on the tire speed rating. They wanted a high enough ratio to allow a run from idle to full speed to last as long as possible but not to a speed over the tires ratings.

------------------
Jonathan Bartlett
 
M

mickey

Guest
Wow. I had no idea a chassis dyno is such a simple machine. It certainly sounds like "calibration" is a meaningless concern.

I think we can all agree that the amount of power "on the ground" is the only meaningful measure in the real world. The question is whether VW publishes "on the ground" numbers, or bench dyno numbers. It sounds to me like their numbers are based on chassis dyno testing, and are not corrected for powertrain loss. That would certainly be odd. I've never heard of a manufacturer doing that. They all like to inflate their power claims as much as possible. If that is true, then it certainly explains why the TDIs seem so strong for "only" 90 hp!

-mickey
 

lundgrji

Active member
Joined
Mar 3, 1999
Location
Minnesota, USA
Thanks for the technical background, Jonathon. The chassis dynos I've used were old Clayton brands with the power absorbtion unit essentially being a water pump. Horsepower was measured at a steady speed.

Your info. states the vehicle must be accelerating for the dyno to calculate hp. I'm just curious, how quickly is the vehicle speed accelerating during a run? Do the operators try to shoot for the same rate of acceleration each time, and with different vehicles? If you're getting 90 hp while accelerating, then that power will go up when checked at a steady speed. Overcoming engine and drivetrain inertia, or, accelerating all that mass consumes hp.

The difference in transmission efficiency at different ratios is not great, and varies with each trans. I simply read something about it once, and saw some graphs, so I thought I'd throw it in as another example of a testing variable. It might vary up to 3%? from the most efficient to least efficient ratio, with the 1:1 ratio usually being the best. It's just another variable in chassis dyno testing.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
The "brake" dynamometer is more accurate for determining HP at one specific engine speed. The "rolling road" dynamometer is marginally less accurate because of the need to average the power between sample times. The rolling road can produce pretty graphs instead of a single point specific power at a specific speed.
My runs took about 20 seconds each. That is the time needed to accelerate the rollers from an engine speed of 750 rpm to the point where the engine produced so little power that no more roller acceleration occured, about 4400 rpm. The run in 4th took longer than the runs in third due to a slower roller acceleration but a faster speed.
The sample time interval is so brief that I do not think that the HP number would be higher by more than a percentage point if that much.

------------------
Jonathan Bartlett
 
Top