Going 2266 in my CJAA CR2.0 TDI

[lemoncurd]

Hello all,

Just making this post because I wanted to share the current progress on my TDI. Still not sure where I want to take this build but I am starting with a 2266!

Here is the turbo and manifold, compressor side is cut and being re-welded to give more room towards the firewall

Here is the turbo getting balanced! Very excited with where this is going, will be one hell of a sleeper hehehe
I'll post new updates and what not here

 

[TDIMeister]

will be one hell of a sleeper hehehe

Under 3000 RPM, you got that right!

 

[lemoncurd]

Under 3000 RPM, you got that right!

Launch control because DSG babyyyyy!
I will also be installing headstuds when this turbo goes in

After this turbo, I plan on putting a race cam from darkside in, machining the pistons + ceramic coat, connecting rods, porting the head + bigger valve seats, new valve springs, cp3 fuel pump, and new injectors. Quite the shopping list hahaha

What do you think I could rev this engine out to with those mods TDIMeister?

 

[lemoncurd]

Thoughts on having a turbo support?
If its really not needed then I won't use one, but if the general consensus that that I should use one, I will try to hook something up, won't be the same as factory though

 

[turbobrick240]

I would use a support. The weldment of the manifold to turbo flange looks less than professional.

 

[lemoncurd]

I would use a support. The weldment of the manifold to turbo flange looks less than professional.

Yeah that is fair, problem is trying to figure out where to run the support to as the stock system uses a bonjo bolt and a rod to support the turbo. My new setup will be using braided lines.
I suppose I can try to take some steel flat stock and run it down to my blocked off EGR plate as a brace.. hmmm

 

[Macradiators.com]

If turbo is set right it will make 2 bar boost at 2700rpm. Turbo is not that big. I was doing 2 bar @2850rpm with 430hp capable turbo. So it can be done.
Tuning of course is important, must be done right.
Rpm i would say 5300 max.

 

[lemoncurd]

Anyone that says large turbochargers suck has not tried one. A free breathing engine makes so much power off boost you won't even notice the lag. Just a smooth, linear pull to insane high rpm power without all the smoke, high EGT, bent rods, lifting the head or cracking pistons.

Thats the dream right there

If turbo is set right it will make 2 bar boost at 2700rpm. Turbo is not that big. I was doing 2 bar @2850rpm with 430hp capable turbo. So it can be done.
Tuning of course is important, must be done right.
Rpm i would say 5300 max.

5300 rpm on stock everything just bigger turbo or after i've built, cammed, and ported the engine?

 

[lemoncurd]

She is all put together and ready to be shipped to me. To say I am excited is an understatement!

 

[lemoncurd]

Turbo, manifold, and other small bits arrived today! After around April I will order the last few parts and get this installed

 

[[486]]

nice
I like a reasonable sized turbo like you've got
with anything smaller you're just moving a lot of air that you can not use below 3k, due to the torque limitations of lightly built drivetrain bits (engine inclusive)

Kind of confused by the upper limit of 5300, do the CR motors just have some fatal flaw to them where they don't like to spin fast? Here and I was thinking they'd do a lot better at speed than the VE motors as they don't have the injection pump zinging along at warp speed trying to do all four injection events.

 

[DannyS]

I've read that the swirl ports make the flow collapse at some point. So if the swirl is optimized for 4000 rpm, fuelling may not be the only problem at 5300 rpm. Also, in RK diesel simulator, a swirl number of 1.6-1.7 seems to work best, so you'd need to tune the head to have this swirl at your targeted rpm.

Black smoke racing makes ~700 HP @5600 rpm, turbo only. The om648 engine they use has square bore/stroke ratio but I guess this proves CR engines can run and make max power beyond 5300 rpm very well.

I'm not an diesel engineer though, just interested.

 

[lemoncurd]

nice
I like a reasonable sized turbo like you've got
with anything smaller you're just moving a lot of air that you can not use below 3k, due to the torque limitations of lightly built drivetrain bits (engine inclusive)

Kind of confused by the upper limit of 5300, do the CR motors just have some fatal flaw to them where they don't like to spin fast? Here and I was thinking they'd do a lot better at speed than the VE motors as they don't have the injection pump zinging along at warp speed trying to do all four injection events.

Thanks! Yeah one other thing people seem to forget with turbo upgrades is that if you have a DSG (or a manual with a DMF) you cannot use your torque and power below roughly 2.2k rpm, this turbo lights off soon there after while maintaining a decent amount of air flow below that point

I've read that the swirl ports make the flow collapse at some point. So if the swirl is optimized for 4000 rpm, fuelling may not be the only problem at 5300 rpm. Also, in RK diesel simulator, a swirl number of 1.6-1.7 seems to work best, so you'd need to tune the head to have this swirl at your targeted rpm.

Black smoke racing makes ~700 HP @5600 rpm, turbo only. The om648 engine they use has square bore/stroke ratio but I guess this proves CR engines can run and make max power beyond 5300 rpm very well.

I'm not an diesel engineer though, just interested.

I also do not see any reason the engine cant rev beyond 5.3k once it is built. When it is stock I would imagine that the valve springs are not rigid enough and you will see valve float.

I will have to see what to do about the swirl ratio and all but that is all down the road

 

[Markus L]

Low turbine efficiency and flow parameter will be most likely a limiting factor at higher rpm. Don't worry about swirl number. At least don't trust some random simulation results.

If turbo is set right it will make 2 bar boost at 2700rpm. Turbo is not that big. I was doing 2 bar @2850rpm with 430hp capable turbo. So it can be done.
Tuning of course is important, must be done right.
Rpm i would say 5300 max.

Comparing just a boost pressure at given rpm is not really reasonable because it doesn't tell much about engine performance. With VNT you can basically add boost til surge limit by just closing the vanes. With smaller turbo, because of higher turbine and compressor efficiency, you can get the same boost pressure with significantly lower pumping losses and low end to mid performance will be better.

However I do agree that turbo in question is not big

Anyone that says large turbochargers suck has not tried one. A free breathing engine makes so much power off boost you won't even notice the lag. Just a smooth, linear pull to insane high rpm power without all the smoke, high EGT, bent rods, lifting the head or cracking pistons.

Anyone that says a 2.0 diesel engine makes much power off boost have never tried much power.

 

[lemoncurd]

However I do agree that turbo in question is not big

Yep! I think it is a good size turbo for the power goals I am going to hit short - mid term. In the long run I will be making a billet exhaust manifold and using a hx40/he400 in a compound setup, if it even gets to that point. I may build the engine, max this turbo out, and be satisfied.
We will see!

 

[Macradiators.com]

EMP is key, not many measure it.

 

[Markus L]

Alright maybe not at zero boost, but I do find anything with a 20-22 sized turbine to be very responsive at less than full boost. Significantly better than with a stock VNT17. With stop screw set properly and a proper tune (not a canned "stage whatever"). I can drive identical cars, one with big turbo and one with stock turbo back to back, since I have both. The larger turbo has better drivability and low rpm responsiveness.

So the only difference between these cars is a turbocharger? Same injectors, software, exhaust etc.?

Larger turbo's will not spool quickly just by closing the vanes more.

This is why boost pressure vs time is already better way to estimate transient performance than boost pressure vs rpm. Even better would be engine power against time but it's kind of complicated to measure without dyno. Of course acceleration time can be used to estimate this.

 

[Markus L]

Yep! I think it is a good size turbo for the power goals I am going to hit short - mid term. In the long run I will be making a billet exhaust manifold and using a hx40/he400 in a compound setup, if it even gets to that point. I may build the engine, max this turbo out, and be satisfied.
We will see!

I don't recommend 2-stage turbocharging if this is your daily driver. Actually I don't recommend it at all.

 

[lemoncurd]

I don't recommend 2-stage turbocharging if this is your daily driver. Actually I don't recommend it at all.

If the car ever gets to compounds it will no longer be the daily. I plan on getting a new car for the daily before the next winter as I am not too fond of rusting my TDI out haha

Any reason you say not to 2-stage turbo charge the car?
I have a manifold 90% made in CAD at the moment, it will be using an external wastegate as well. I don't really see any reason to do it as it has been done before

Edit: I mean, even VW has done Bi-Turbo in a quite similar fashion..

 

[[486]]

I'd kinda like to try the sequential set off one of those 335D cars that we got over here
they look like they got a proper full bypass for the HP so it won't eat through HP turbos like candy
oh, and both look to be normal wastegated units instead of vane garbage

 

[lemoncurd]

That is not compound turbo's you are drawing up. I'm not sure what that is, some sort of parallel big/little setup?

It's compound, the bottom T4 flange (may change to T3) will be to a wastegate, which will then feed into the LP turbo. The LP turbo will also be fed by the outlet of the HP turbo

 

[Boxxy]

So you plan to put a 2266 on you car before having the required fueling??
What about the stock intercooler and the amazing charge pipe clips

Rethink your upgrade route

 

[Markus L]

If the car ever gets to compounds it will no longer be the daily. I plan on getting a new car for the daily before the next winter as I am not too fond of rusting my TDI out haha

Any reason you say not to 2-stage turbo charge the car?
I have a manifold 90% made in CAD at the moment, it will be using an external wastegate as well. I don't really see any reason to do it as it has been done before

Edit: I mean, even VW has done Bi-Turbo in a quite similar fashion..

Increased weight, packaging issues, system complexity - not many tuners can or want to tune these setups. And like 486 mentioned HP turbochargers tend to wear very quickly.

Proper turbocharger matching seems to be difficult for most of people and almost every setup I have seen have been more or less bad (except OEM's). It's not always because lack of skills but also lack of maps. Compressor side matching is quite easy task because there is a quite good selection of maps available and even rough estimations work. There's also a good tutorial in this forum. Turbine side is far more complex and there's not much information available. There are not even many suitable parts available so compromises are mandatory.

Of course if you like building your car more than driving I can recommend 2-stage turbocharging.

Obviously not the same software. There is no way you can run the stock maps with a larger turbo.

I have 2 B7 audi A4's, both BHW swapped, both stock mechanically other than new AMC stock profile cams. "Canned" stage 2 tunes, no other mods. They both run the same. A little smoky and "tight" feeling off idle but a big surge at 1800-2000rpm then pretty clean once past that and they both fall pretty flat beyond 3500rpm, as expected with the small turbo. These cars are my girlfriends daily and my winter beater.

GT1749VA has such a small compressor it should never surge. There's clearly some problem with those cars and I bet that "stage 2" software has something (or everything) to do with it. Since you can do decent tuning yourself I recommend to take a look what's the issue.

 

[[486]]

still a WIP, it will be wastegated properly..

what I mean is that that BMW set (iirc it's something like a borg "s2" or some such ridiculously short identifier)
it has a turbine bypass and a compressor bypass
not just an interstage wastegate, it actually blocks off the exhaust flow through the HP
even going with a 60mm wastegate across the HP turbine, you will still overspeed the HP turbo
Somehow my current setup has lasted 20k miles and the HP's bearings are still okay. I do not know how, but it is an extreme rarity. My current thought is that I'm running them both against a reasonable pressure ratio rather than trying to transition between turbos. The HP is certainly a restriction on the top end, but it's running out of fuel up there anyways so I don't let it bother me.

honestly, I'd really like to put together something with a single small s300 or a large s200. Wastegated of course.
Car ate some transmission bits twice in 200 miles, I'm sick of it sitting in the garage on jackstands because of how everything has to come out to work on anything.

 

[lemoncurd]

So you plan to put a 2266 on you car before having the required fueling??
What about the stock intercooler and the amazing charge pipe clips

Rethink your upgrade route

You can run a 2260 on stock everything and be fine. You just push to only ~220hp, 2266 is only different because of the exhaust allowing some more flow up high. This will work fine for my current needs and for once the engine is built.
CP3 will also be going in with this turbo now as well due to some extra dough

Markus and 486, valid points. I have a tuner in mind willing to give it a shot, and I will be redesigning the manifold to properly wastegate around the HP like oem vw does, so blocking off charge, and exhaust. Thanks for the tips!

 

[lemoncurd]

I've some more goodies! I am now only waiting on the feed line, and headstuds from darkside. Then it will be tuning time around end of April! Driving down to Florida soon and I don't want to throw everything in for it to break on me in the middle of the country

Edit: Oh and my EGR valve delete, the oil return line for the turbo and what not is here, just didnt get it in the photo. I've a nice stack of boxes next to my desk full of parts ready to be used! haha

 

[Macradiators.com]

Avoid the dq500 if possible, heavy slow gearbox and pretty difficult to map. Been there , done that, regretted it
Dq250 does everything better for the power and torque you will make.

 

[lemoncurd]

Hello all, been a while since the last update!

I have purchased my tunes, I am now waiting on the shop to get me booked. I would have been doing this job myself but since my work has made us come back to the office I can no longer be without a car for an extended period of time.

Does anyone know of where I can get an upgraded fuel pressure rail sensor + washer/spacer?
I see that darkside has a 2700bar one but it is quite expensive, especially after shipping!

 

[DivineChaos]

Hello all, been a while since the last update!

I have purchased my tunes, I am now waiting on the shop to get me booked. I would have been doing this job myself but since my work has made us come back to the office I can no longer be without a car for an extended period of time.

Does anyone know of where I can get an upgraded fuel pressure rail sensor + washer/spacer?
I see that darkside has a 2700bar one but it is quite expensive, especially after shipping!

I thought the cp4 pump was capable of more pressure than the cp3...

 

[lemoncurd]

I thought the cp4 pump was capable of more pressure than the cp3...

No. CP3 also flows more than the CP4 aswell cp4 can do higher pressure than cp3, but cp3 can flow more

Even if this where not true, and I even took a 10whp hit in performance I would still install it for the given reliablity bump. I hate having a grenade under my hood. Diesel quality around me can be questionable at times