GM and Tax credit on Volt

[BlueGraphite'10TDI]

You're not as educated on this topic as you think. Japanese products were very high in quality during the 80s and 90s.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I suppose, I was always prejudice against them just like I am prejudice against American car companies now.

In the 170,000 miles we drove on our 93 Grand Am Se 3300 V6 Coupe, we only had regular maint and a few odds and end things. And it never burned a drop of oil and could manage over 30mpg on the highway with the old 3 speed auto. And IMO it looked a darn sight better then anything that rolled off the Jap showroom.

It also doesn't help that my grandfather was a GM mechanic for 40 years. Anything can last with some good TLC, most people let their cars go to pasture, don't perform maint, don't wash and wax... etc etc. When I see 3 year old cars with faded paint or other such problems and my 16 year old Grand am still shined like she was new... Makes me lose faith in people. Lol

 

[MonsterTDI09]

I suppose, I was always prejudice against them just like I am prejudice against American car companies now.

In the 170,000 miles we drove on our 93 Grand Am Se 3300 V6 Coupe, we only had regular maint and a few odds and end things. And it never burned a drop of oil and could manage over 30mpg on the highway with the old 3 speed auto. And IMO it looked a darn sight better then anything that rolled off the Jap showroom.

It also doesn't help that my grandfather was a GM mechanic for 40 years. Anything can last with some good TLC, most people let their cars go to pasture, don't perform maint, don't wash and wax... etc etc. When I see 3 year old cars with faded paint or other such problems and my 16 year old Grand am still shined like she was new... Makes me lose faith in people. Lol

Did you ever replace the head gasket on your Grand Am.They are sharp looking cars.

 

[BadMonKey]

I can see you are just as stubborn as I am. Lol.

For the price what other cars had manual tranny's and a 190hp 4 banger in 1992 from the factory? It certainly wasn't anything from Toyota or Honda.

Both Toyota and Honda had 4 cyl. engines producing that and where a couple hundred pounds lighter. Granted not all of them were sold in the N. America market. I have to question why GM stuck a high output 4cyl. in that car when it got the same fuel economy of their V6's.

IMO the Japanese had their best years in the early-mid 90's and their cars where still reasonably priced. American makes were busy running themselves and their profits into the ground. If I was going to mention something memorable from GM in the early 90's it would be the Syclone/Typhoon or the 87 Grand National.

 

[Judson]

GM made some good cars, but they were bloated and needed to
go into Chapter 11.

What's pathetic is how they managed to fear-monger everyone
into bailing them out, then went into Chapter 11 anyway, and
even worse, had Obama - the biggest moron of a President we've
had in the last century - decide to arbitrarily override 100 years
of bankruptcy laws by giving ownership to the Union members
over preferred stockholders.

Yeesh.

Even more of a joke is the Volt. Talk about a boondoggle of epic
proportions. Worldwide car manufacturers are working on good,
solid tech for hybrids, and produce them at competitive prices.

Yet GM produces the Volt at decidedly uncompetitive prices,
in fact, astonishingly uncompetitive prices, yet gets the spin
machine/politicial bribery machine going to get tax credits,
to get GE to buy Volts as part of another horribly corrupt Obama
deal, and now is lobbying for a $1 per gallon gas increase to
increase demand for the Volt.

Seriously, this is amateur hour. It's a bad sitcom.

I mean, for 8 years all we heard was Halliburton and corruption,
and yet because it's all for The Environment and their pet favorite
Obama is in the White House, the media is drooling over like slobbering
puppies anything these guys come up with.

Had this level of favoritism for *ANY* industry occurred under a
Republican administration, we'd have impeachment proceedings.

 

[aja8888]

Seriously, this is amateur hour. It's a bad sitcom.

I can't wait for Act II (much higher fuel prices).

 

[Judson]

BTW, I *do* think the Volt has some cool tech, and I am happy for
the OP.

But the price was and is too high, and the cost to all US tax-paying
citizens is not only too high, but a criminal use of our money.

 

[Judson]

I can't wait for Act II (much higher fuel prices).

Worse is this is all fixable. All of it. Easily.

The problem is we have a country full of people anal to
the nth degree on whatever issue they're rabid about.

 

[ChasSidwa]

"But the price was and is too high, and the cost to all US tax-paying
citizens is not only too high, but a criminal use of our money."

2.5B for Afghanistan a week divided by $7,500.00 = 333,333 Volts could be sold. I say middle east oil subsidy is way too high!

 

[Judson]

And this is an excuse for selling Volts are prices that no free
economic system would support? Uh, no.

Just because one thing is stupid (and I've always been for Iraq and
against Afghanistan) doesn't justify being stupid everywhere.

It is arguable to say that should we have let the Middle East go the
direction is was going back in 1992, oil could be $200 a barrel, with
gasoline in the US at $8 a gallon, leaving the poor with yet less money
to pay for the basics.

About the only way out of this is to use our own capacity, but that too,
only means world oil prices would trend downwards and be more
stable, not completely eliminate the middle east oil subsidy!

 

[ChasSidwa]

I would argue that the real cost of fuel is well north of $4 per gallon given the financial burden of maintaining a stable middle east. Is this the reason Iraq was a good idea and Afgan is a bad idea, only spend billions when it means keeping oil cheap? We are sure paying for it now and will be until we stop importing. I think an EV subsidy is cheaper then military efforts, not to mention the savings of blood.

 

[Judson]

We don't have to maintain the financial burden of a stable
middle east. At all.

OPEC influences the world market due to its percentage
of the oil it produces.

If other energy sources (oil and natural gas, for example) are present
to rely upon, and these sources are from a much more stable region, then
price *and* volatility are reduced.

But we as a country have decided we would rather export our pollution
to other countries, most recently Brazil to a large extent, than to deal
with it (and deal with it more effectively) here.

So, arguing about the use of oil in wars is silly, when we have a solution
that is easy to effect and far less expensive (and bloody).

Global demand for energy is going to continue to rise, no matter how
many EVs are on the road. THIS is the reality to deal with and plan for.

 

[BadMonKey]

What's pathetic is how they managed to fear-monger everyone into bailing them out, then went into Chapter 11 anyway, and
even worse, had Obama - the biggest moron of a President we've
had in the last century - decide to arbitrarily override 100 years
of bankruptcy laws by giving ownership to the Union members
over preferred stockholders.

Really what laws where broken? I wasn't aware of a law that gave preferred stockholders 1st crack at the capital in a chap. 11. Oh and the UAW was a stock holder and the debt owed to them by GM was traded for stock. They were one of the largest debtors to GM hence why they had a say in court where the court makes the decisions.

Not a fan of Obama but the previous administration gets the award of biggest moron and most corrupt. You sure are good at pointing the finger and missing the facts. Which president bailed out GM? Oh and who's daddy bailed out the banks during the savings and loan scandal? The conservative brain is pretty short as TARP the worlds largest bailout was developed under the Bush administration not Obama.

http://www.propublica.org/special/government-bailouts

Even more of a joke is the Volt. Talk about a boondoggle of epic
proportions. Worldwide car manufacturers are working on good,
solid tech for hybrids, and produce them at competitive prices.

Yet GM produces the Volt at decidedly uncompetitive prices,
in fact, astonishingly uncompetitive prices, yet gets the spin
machine/politicial bribery machine going to get tax credits,
to get GE to buy Volts as part of another horribly corrupt Obama
deal, and now is lobbying for a $1 per gallon gas increase to
increase demand for the Volt.

Try to go buy the Volt, last time i checked its a long waiting list and in fact they had many of them pre-ordered before the tax credit existed. Its only a $40K car, they have entire car companies that sell nothing buy cars over $40K so clearly there is a market out there. Not to mention the tax credit exists for other cars but for some reason only the Volt pisses you off. Don't here you crying about the TDI tax credit.

Hybrids are not at competitive prices as it will take most buyers 3-5 years to pay for the added costs with fuel savings and the average car owner only owns a vehicale for 2 years

Obama lobbying to increase fuel prices to sell more Volts WOW; that's some funny sh**.

I mean, for 8 years all we heard was Halliburton and corruption, and yet because it's all for The Environment and their pet favorite Obama is in the White House, the media is drooling over like slobbering puppies anything these guys come up with.

Had this level of favoritism for *ANY* industry occurred under a
Republican administration, we'd have impeachment proceedings.

Halliburton and Obama?? Think your mixing up the administrations as Halliburton's puppy was Dick Cheney who gave direct uncompetitive contracts and doubled their Government revenues. My favorite was their decision to move corp. headquarters to UAE the same year Dick was leaving office

 

[BadMonKey]

We don't have to maintain the financial burden of a stable
middle east. At all.

OPEC influences the world market due to its percentage
of the oil it produces.

If other energy sources (oil and natural gas, for example) are present
to rely upon, and these sources are from a much more stable region, then
price *and* volatility are reduced.

But we as a country have decided we would rather export our pollution
to other countries, most recently Brazil to a large extent, than to deal
with it (and deal with it more effectively) here.

So, arguing about the use of oil in wars is silly, when we have a solution
that is easy to effect and far less expensive (and bloody).

Global demand for energy is going to continue to rise, no matter how
many EVs are on the road. THIS is the reality to deal with and plan for.

LOL; OPEC produces oil

As someone that works in the O&G industry please enlighten me to these other resources in stable regions and the easy fix you have planned?

 

[robnitro]

The real joke is this, lets say a normal car comparable to the volt is 20k less.
It costs about a dollar to charge the volt and get about 40 miles more or less on battery, depending on conditions. To get 40 miles on a typical small car with gas at $4.00, that is about $4.80. Lets use M for miles.
Formula ($1/40)M+$20,000 = ($4.80/40)M
Solve for M, we get 96,153 Miles to break even.
By then, batteries may need to be replaced, who knows what the cost will be.
I used the same calculation to explain to a friend why he should get the Civic instead of the insight hybrid. For that comparison it would take 266,000 miles at $4/gallon gas.

Electricity is cheaper than gasoline because power companies get better prices on fuel, can run cheaper fuels such as coal/bunker oil/natural gas.

 

[aja8888]

None of the car marketing propaganda ever touts the customer as to how much less it will cost to operate the hybrid, Volt, etc on a cost per mile basis. They typically claim "high MPG" or equivalent. The typical consumer is not educated enough to grasp "cost per mile" or "total operating cost" math.

My next door neighbor graduated LSU and drives his family drives two GMC behemoths. He still doesn't get the concept and says that diesel fuel costs more so my Passat is not "good" compared to his Yukon.

These cars are built for political reasons and to advance technology for the company's research departments. Plus, "goodwill" is important for a public company and these cars provide the feed. Look at Exxon's green commercials for algae based fuels, etc. (success of the program is not a high priority). (Ask me how I know after working in a corporate setting in a major integrated oil company for years.)

 

[EJS]

..........................Not a fan of Obama but the previous administration gets the award of biggest moron and most corrupt...........

The only difference between the last 2 administrations (3 really) is one is far better at reading from a teleprompter.

...........Electricity is cheaper than gasoline because power companies get better prices on fuel, can run cheaper fuels such as coal/bunker oil/natural gas.

The real genius is plugging vehicles into an already over taxed grid - best if they were all sold in Vegas, the Vegas that has about 3yrs left on it's power supply

............... Look at Exxon's green commercials for algae based fuels, etc. (success of the program is not a high priority). (Ask me how I know after working in a corporate setting in a major integrated oil company for years.)

Always curious about that........if I had a company selling a product that I KNEW would disappear I'd certainly be working on a replacement................but then US companies aren't known for "stra-teeg-er-ry".

 

[aja8888]

Always curious about that........if I had a company selling a product that I KNEW would disappear I'd certainly be working on a replacement................but then US companies aren't known for "stra-teeg-er-ry".

Publicly traded US companies live and die on their quarterly results. Stock prices are important to those who get options or their compensation is based on stock prices. The fluff marketing is all about goodwill.

With oil companies (those who find crude oil and sell refined products), the business strategy is focused on replacing reserves. Without that, the company will cease to exist.

 

[ChasSidwa]

"The real genius is plugging vehicles into an already over taxed grid - best if they were all sold in Vegas, the Vegas that has about 3yrs left on it's power supply."

Keep in mind that the grid is a use it or lose it proposition, with little exception all electric production is running 24/7. The real trick is to tap the grid when demand is down, like at night. The Volt allows me to schedule when charging begins, so I can come home from work plug her in and she charges from 1:00AM to 5:00AM. This results in no load on the grid at peak demand. This is actually a win for the electric companies as they are selling me electric that would otherwise not be used.

 

[Judson]

LOL; OPEC produces oil

As someone that works in the O&G industry please enlighten me to these other resources in stable regions and the easy fix you have planned?

As my brother-in-law has been in the O&G business for 30+
years, I will paraphrase: "we could produce all we need."
This is true for both oil and gas.

WE are the stable region, brother!

Also, OPEC: Organization of Oil-Producing Nations. So, if your
a tightwad grammar ****, technically speaking OPEC doesn't
produce oil, but all of its members do, so practically speaking,
I'm correct. But I'm guessing you knew that...

 

[Judson]

Really what laws where broken? I wasn't aware of a law that gave preferred stockholders 1st crack at the capital in a chap. 11. Oh and the UAW was a stock holder and the debt owed to them by GM was traded for stock. They were one of the largest debtors to GM hence why they had a say in court where the court makes the decisions.

Not a fan of Obama but the previous administration gets the award of biggest moron and most corrupt. You sure are good at pointing the finger and missing the facts. Which president bailed out GM? Oh and who's daddy bailed out the banks during the savings and loan scandal? The conservative brain is pretty short as TARP the worlds largest bailout was developed under the Bush administration not Obama.

http://www.propublica.org/special/government-bailouts




Try to go buy the Volt, last time i checked its a long waiting list and in fact they had many of them pre-ordered before the tax credit existed. Its only a $40K car, they have entire car companies that sell nothing buy cars over $40K so clearly there is a market out there. Not to mention the tax credit exists for other cars but for some reason only the Volt pisses you off. Don't here you crying about the TDI tax credit.

Hybrids are not at competitive prices as it will take most buyers 3-5 years to pay for the added costs with fuel savings and the average car owner only owns a vehicale for 2 years

Obama lobbying to increase fuel prices to sell more Volts WOW; that's some funny sh**.

Halliburton and Obama?? Think your mixing up the administrations as Halliburton's puppy was Dick Cheney who gave direct uncompetitive contracts and doubled their Government revenues. My favorite was their decision to move corp. headquarters to UAE the same year Dick was leaving office

Your facts must be from the DNC, as Cheney did NONE of that while
VP. Hell, he was long gone as CEO, andhad many other things to worry
about, like a Congress, which ran on defunding the Iraq war, blackmailing
them for anything they wanted. Research government spending over
the last 10 years and isolate which year the spending reeaally got
serious. yes, that's right: 2007.

CHENEY, as VP, did not GIVE contracts to Halliburton. Honestly.
Looks it up. The Pentagon, which has a budget, gave contracts to
Halliburton. You need to re-learn how the federal government works.

The Pentagon gave Halliburton exclusives because Halliburton have
unique capabilities. Again, do some research and don't buy the garbage
media line. If you don't like Bush/Cheney, that's fine, but at least
make your criticism accurate.

I did NOT like Bush in terms of domestic spending; few conservatives
do, but few Democrats understand this, and seem to have an
unhealth fixation.

Both Dems and Repubs in the last two Congresses spent like drunken
sailors. Unfortunately, one one party seems to fully understand and
be willing to address this issue.

Let's see, two more things: re-read the paragraph on Halliburton and
Obama. The pairing was Obama and the Environment, the latter is
a reference to the quasi-religious movement.

Finally, the Volt has a waiting list because GM is purposefully producing
very few, as they are losing AT LEAST $10,000 on every Volt. DOH!
It it not due to demand.

I'm sorry, but if we're going to have a NASA-to-the-moon effort, at
least be obvious about it and make it fair among all of the manufacturers,
not just your pet Union favorite. Ford is producing competitive, real-
world, useful hybrids, and has for a long-time.

 

[aja8888]

I think it is time to lock this thread.

 

[BadMonKey]

As my brother-in-law has been in the O&G business for 30+
years, I will paraphrase: "we could produce all we need."
This is true for both oil and gas.

WE are the stable region, brother!

Also, OPEC: Organization of Oil-Producing Nations. So, if your
a tightwad grammar ****, technically speaking OPEC doesn't
produce oil, but all of its members do, so practically speaking,
I'm correct. But I'm guessing you knew that...

That's propaganda from the drill now lobby. Don't get me wrong I'm for US produced oil not only for our economy but my company lives on both domestic and international productions. It doesn't take a genius to line up the numbers 18-21 million barrels per day use and 5-7 million barrels per day production. Even in our prime days (70's) with basically no regulation or oversight we produced 8 million barrels per day Sure we could switch our cars over to NG and maybe fill the demand right after we build the fuel infrastructure and take water rights away from our aggriculture as Fracking only takes 4-8 million gallons of water per well with 8-30 wells per pad that can be fracked 4-16 times each (a lot of flippn water). There is no good answer no matter which political rhetoric you listen too.

Yes we have big reserves in shale and no it wont fuel this country tell someone figures out how to economically get it out. I've personally worked on a freeze wall pad site and fully understand just how expensive and how much energy is required to extract it. Its not economical at this point and requires damn near more energy to extract than you get out. I don't believe we will ever run out of oil it will become so expensive and energy intensive to extract that we will be forced to something else. I can only imagine how fun that period of transition will be with $5 apples and beef will become the new caviar.

OPEC is a political government cartel of 12 Countries that mostly hate each other and try to manage the price of oil by managing the supply. They are government mouth pieces with no teeth. Its like a speed limit without cops. They don't produce oil they just collect royalties from it.

 

[ChasSidwa]

Well said!

 

[BadMonKey]

Finally, the Volt has a waiting list because GM is purposefully producing
very few, as they are losing AT LEAST $10,000 on every Volt. DOH!
It it not due to demand.

I'm sorry, but if we're going to have a NASA-to-the-moon effort, at
least be obvious about it and make it fair among all of the manufacturers,
not just your pet Union favorite. Ford is producing competitive, real-
world, useful hybrids, and has for a long-time.

Leaving the political side out, I'm not a democrat for the record and believe both parties should have the jackass as their symbol.

And what new car launch doesn't limit production on the 1st year for a new model? Sorry but you have to have a demand to sell 200-300 $42K vehicles in a month. Yes; they lose money on every volt sold and so does any new model car. Now I'm waiting for someone to say the replacement batter will cost $15K and will only last 2-3 years.

I have no issues with Ford vehicles but they have only been producing a (1) hybrid for a couple years now. Their previous hybrids were licensed re-badged Toyota bits. Granted the Volt is GM's 1st real hybrid, their other hybrids where a PR joke.

 

[MrMopar]

Keep in mind that the grid is a use it or lose it proposition, with little exception all electric production is running 24/7. The real trick is to tap the grid when demand is down, like at night. The Volt allows me to schedule when charging begins, so I can come home from work plug her in and she charges from 1:00AM to 5:00AM. This results in no load on the grid at peak demand. This is actually a win for the electric companies as they are selling me electric that would otherwise not be used.

Uh, while the electricity might be "on" for 24 hours each day, demand is different and fuel consumption at the power plants goes up when load is up. At night, demand is low, but lots of power plants throttle down fuel consumption so they don't "waste" electricity in the sense you are thinking.

Plugging your Volt in at 1am is increasing fuel consumption at your nearby power plants. Whether it be a very slightly faster fuel burn up at a nuclear plant, a few thousand more gallons of water down the turbine at a hydro plant, or a few dozen more pounds of coal in the furnace at a coal plant, it is all fuel being used to generate the power. If the US makes a massive move towards electric vehicles we will see MORE coal burned and more nuclear power used.

 

[ikendu]

As my brother-in-law has been in the O&G business for 30+
years, I will paraphrase: "we could produce all we need."
This is true for both oil and gas...

Before this thread gets locked, I'd like to request, please ask your brother-in-law to explain this for you so you can pass it along in some other thread titled "How the U.S. could produce all the oil we need". I will read that thread with great interest.

During the Bush administration, the DOE did a study of Alaskan and out-of-bounds off-shore oil that could be made available.
Alaskan would add 4% supply to our oil demand
Currently out-of-bounds off-shore would add 1% supply to our oil demand.
So... I see that part. I'm interested in the rest, from your brother-in-law.

 

[ikendu]

Uh, while the electricity might be "on" for 24 hours each day, demand is different and fuel consumption at the power plants goes up when load is up. At night, demand is low, but lots of power plants throttle down fuel consumption so they don't "waste" electricity in the sense you are thinking.

Plugging your Volt in at 1am is increasing fuel consumption at your nearby power plants. Whether it be a very slightly faster fuel burn up at a nuclear plant, a few thousand more gallons of water down the turbine at a hydro plant, or a few dozen more pounds of coal in the furnace at a coal plant, it is all fuel being used to generate the power. If the US makes a massive move towards electric vehicles we will see MORE coal burned and more nuclear power used.

Late night demand is down 40% from the peak at 3 pm. I believe the OP was referring to the comment from another poster about an "over taxed grid". Seems like night time charging when demand is down 40% answers that "over taxed grid" issue quite effectively.

As far as using extra energy... well, maybe. You can only throttle down a coal plant so much at night. The fire boxes of the boilers are huge affairs lined with fire brick. If you cool them down too fast, the brick lining will crack. It explains why utility companies have been doing everything they can to sell nightime electricity. When I was a child (50 years ago), there were ads on TV about "decorate your home with night time lighting". The utility company also gave away free "barn lights" to farmers, just to have somewhere to sell that night time electricity. Much of our night time electricity is wasted on too much and too inefficient lighting that has caused huge "light pollution" around our cities (and even our farms) so you can hardly see the stars at night.

If the US makes a massive move towards electric vehicles we will see MORE coal burned and more nuclear power used.

If necessary, I'd much rather see more coal and nuclear if it meant we didn't have to fight more 10-year wars in the middle east anymore.

 

[ikendu]

If the US makes a massive move towards electric vehicles we will see MORE coal burned and more nuclear power used.

Here's a little more of that "Well, maybe...".

GE Combines Natural Gas, Wind, and Solar
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/37715/

"The hybrid plant could be the cheapest and easiest way to add renewable energy to the grid."

We have abundant supplies of renewable energy here in the U.S.; wind and solar. And... that source, never runs out (our sun).

 

[ikendu]

Both Dems and Repubs in the last two Congresses spent like drunken sailors. Unfortunately, one one party seems to fully understand and be willing to address this issue...

Hmm. Well, let's see. We've been fighting in Afghanistan since Oct. 7, 2001 and in Iraq since March 20, 2003.

We never raised one dime of taxes to pay for either of these wars. We just borrowed the money (mostly from the communist Chinese). Are you telling me that there is one party that now wants to "pay off the debt from this war" somehow? Which one?

If the thread gets locked, please PM me your thoughts on this.

 

[ikendu]

Found this interesting little graph:

http://www.eia.gov/energy_in_brief/foreign_oil_dependence.cfm

We are now down from 66% imports to "only" 51% imports. Notice from the graph how this was done. Hint: Our consumption in total went down.

Did you know that if two people car pool, just 3 days a week, EACH party saves 30% of their cost for fuel to commute. Would you like to save 30% of your fuel cost? Starting looking for someone that lives close to where you live and works close to where you work. Unfortunatey, few people are willing to do this today. I guess petroleum fuel isn't quite yet hurting our wallets enough to make us look for saving opportunities.

I'd like to see us switch more and more of our transportation away from oil. Congratulation to the OP for choosing to be a pioneer with an electric drive vehicle!