Gimme your high hp recipe for an ALH

IndigoBlueWagon

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With a VNT17 and supporting mods you should still be able to get around 40mpg as a daily driver. Ask me how I know ... ;)
I would hope you'd get better than that. With a 17/22 and RC6/PP502s I was getting 43-45 commuting, 46-48 on trips.
 

MATPOC

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Dec 28, 2020
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Providence, near Hope
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2003 Jetta Wagon 5-speed
I've owned old cars, spent money on old cars, if you want a reliable daily look elsewhere, in my experience old/ heavily modded car is a can of worms... unless you spend real money on it, the kind of money that buys you new car

My current daily is a 2008 Volvo C30, paid $3k for it with 114k miles, spent another 3k, both tuning and major maintenance, but did not open the engine. It'c comfy, quiet, AC blows cold and with some light mods it blows away most cars on the road. Also with stock suspension probably best handling car I've owned, but still a sleeper.
I'm not saying you should give up on that hotrod project, just don't have any illusions about having it as a reliable daily.
 

Poor King

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'91 Jetta, '91 GTI, '04 Touareg
With a VNT17 and supporting mods you should still be able to get around 40mpg as a daily driver. Ask me how I know ... ;)
I would hope you'd get better than that. With a 17/22 and RC6/PP502s I was getting 43-45 commuting, 46-48 on trips.
I am not quite sure yet whether I will end up with a new VNT17 or rebuild the Rotomaster turbo that came along with this car. I know I can use Garrett parts for the rebuild.



I've owned old cars, spent money on old cars, if you want a reliable daily look elsewhere, in my experience old/ heavily modded car is a can of worms... unless you spend real money on it, the kind of money that buys you new car

My current daily is a 2008 Volvo C30, paid $3k for it with 114k miles, spent another 3k, both tuning and major maintenance, but did not open the engine. It'c comfy, quiet, AC blows cold and with some light mods it blows away most cars on the road. Also with stock suspension probably best handling car I've owned, but still a sleeper.
I'm not saying you should give up on that hotrod project, just don't have any illusions about having it as a reliable daily.
Love those C30's. Older Volvo's are my other love. I had quite a few with the T5's & T6's :)

I agree it is very hard to accomplish the duality of being fast and being legitimate daily driver. I figured if it is anyway possible a tdi would be the powerplant to do it with. At the end, the TDI was not going to make the high hp for 1/2 mile racing.

The Jetta build will no longer be a high hp build. All stock internals for the motor rebuild other than some racing bearings and ARP headbolts I already purchased. I got a gasser mk2 GTI for the fast bit..
 

turbocharged798

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99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
IMHO once you pass the VNT17/180WHP territory the costs vs rewards really takes a dive. Also IMO past 200HP an ALH is not going to be street friendly. All your power is going to be past 3,000 RPM. For a fun daily torque is what you want, not HP. Once you are in the tubular manfold and GTB territory you better be ready to drop some serious $$$.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
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Aug 15, 2004
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Arizona
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SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
IMHO once you pass the VNT17/180WHP territory the costs vs rewards really takes a dive. Also IMO past 200HP an ALH is not going to be street friendly. All your power is going to be past 3,000 RPM. For a fun daily torque is what you want, not HP. Once you are in the tubular manfold and GTB territory you better be ready to drop some serious $$$.

This is...pretty much correct. However, my brother, through a combination of lucky timing and good brains, managed to get his 2003 Golf refitted with a PD motor. After dropping probably appropriate cashola into it, it had an estimated 230 hp and was dead reliable. But, then you realize when a Mark IV Golf can scoot that fast, the suspension begins to matter a lot. The huge wheels and basic suspension made it scary fast. Any application of serious throttle over 50 mph lead to brown stains in the old underwear. So, factor that in.

I can't remember his recipe for success, but I can have him reach out to you when he is off deployment (he's in the pacific now)
 

p0wer

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Golf 3 -94 1Z 377hp, Golf 3 Cabrio 4-Motion 1.8T 620hp, Golf 3 Syncro 2.9 VR6 HX52, Bora AJM 4-Motion 2260vk +120% Firad, Passat 3B Syncro AFN 2260vk
Huge nozzles
No, 0.32-0.36mm.
big proper turbo. manifold. and exhaust, proper tune, girdle plate, IP mods, about 3 grand into your trans with lsd ect......
Rods, milled pistons,
No. You won´t need girdle, IP mods, rods, and 3 grands into trans. Pistons could be also grinded on their place
Just throw a ton of $ at it and you'll get there!
I needed 4000-5000$
There is no such thing as a alh at 350 to 400 hp with dependable power.
Yes there are.
Turbo-wise I was hoping the 2260vklr kit from Darkside would be a good choice.
No. I wouldn´t use tiny 250-300hp turbo for 400hp build if it´s not smaller one for compound.
The manifold I am not sure what to do. I have read a few threads were where the stock manifold was more efficient than say a DSI manifold.
BRM manifold.

For rods I did a bit of reading some time ago and I have yet to decide on ASV or ARL's depending on whether I have to bore the block.
Use stock rods and pistons.

Wishful thinking is that it would make a dependable daily driver with the boost down being that it is a diesel and I would still have a solid 20mpg with the 2260 turbo kit. They are known to be best of both worlds.
I do 40-50mpg with ~400hp 1Z all the time.

I would recommend I-beam rods. Franko6 has some that he has made. A girdle and maybe it would be good to build a BHW/alh hybrid, with the 2.0 liter and heavier lower end.
Zero benefits. Using BHW lower end with ALH gasket, you will get head gasket problems more easily. Use ALH stock bottom.

Get the head ported, polished and a big cam, tubular manifold, I am not familiar enough with the turbo options to have any recommendations on that.
Head porting and good cam (not synonym for big) which works fine with turbo(s) choosen for the project is the key, polishing cams is not. I´ve used AFN manifolds with welded new flange, and they are OK. You could have bit benefits from tubular or other OEM models though depending turbo and cam.
You'll have to custom tune to get your power you need.
Exactly. Always custom tune whether you change anything. Always.

I agree 100% stay away from meth
No. Absolutely use meth and water for gaining power and engine life!


IMHO once you pass the VNT17/180WHP territory the costs vs rewards really takes a dive.
No. That´s the point where costs vs rewards takes a huge leap after tossing VNT17 to trash.
Also IMO past 200HP an ALH is not going to be street friendly. All your power is going to be past 3,000 RPM. For a fun daily torque is what you want, not HP.
This is quite much 100% crap. After 200hp ALH is yet coming street friendly. For example 2060/2260 sized turbo is so small that there are hardly difference for alh stock on low end. IF there would be all power after 3000rpm is not bad when you rev up to 6500-7000rpm, but it does not need to be like that. Although, i can´t get why to idealize 1000-3000rpm when you can have real power after 3000 or 5000rpm when talking tuned (or daily, as me) engine. I just can´t get it. I would not EVER change my HX35 single turbo engine to VNT17 engine on street car.
Once you are in the tubular manfold and GTB territory you better be ready to drop some serious $$$.
Why people always want waste money for all cam polishings and stuff where are zero benefits for real performance? You need only necessary. Port head and grind cam, put it on place, weld new flange to exhaust manifold and install turbo, make pipings and install injectors and pump. Tune it properly that EGT, EMP, torque and rpm will be on safe side and send it. Don´t think it too complicated. Don´t repair things which works.
 
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Mozambiquer

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No, 0.32-0.36mm.

No. You won´t need girdle, IP mods, rods, and 3 grands into trans. Pistons could be also grinded on their place

I needed 4000-5000$

Yes there are.

No. I wouldn´t use tiny 250-300hp turbo for 400hp build if it´s not smaller one for compound.

BRM manifold.


Use stock rods and pistons.


I do 40-50mpg with ~400hp 1Z all the time.



Zero benefits. Using BHW lower end with ALH gasket, you will get head gasket problems more easily. Use ALH stock bottom.


Head porting and good cam (not synonym for big) which works fine with turbo(s) choosen for the project is the key, polishing cams is not. I´ve used AFN manifolds with welded new flange, and they are OK. You could have bit benefits from tubular or other OEM models though depending turbo and cam.

Exactly. Always custom tune whether you change anything. Always.


No. Absolutely use meth and water for gaining power and engine life!



No. That´s the point where costs vs rewards takes a huge leap after tossing VNT17 to trash.

This is quite much 100% crap. After 200hp ALH is yet coming street friendly. For example 2060/2260 sized turbo is so small that there are hardly difference for alh stock on low end. IF there would be all power after 3000rpm is not bad when you rev up to 6500-7000rpm, but it does not need to be like that. Although, i can´t get why to idealize 1000-3000rpm when you can have real power after 3000 or 5000rpm when talking tuned (or daily, as me) engine. I just can´t get it. I would not EVER change my HX35 single turbo engine to VNT17 engine on street car.

Why people always want waste money for all cam polishings and stuff where are zero benefits for real performance? You need only necessary. Port head and grind cam, put it on place, weld new flange to exhaust manifold and install turbo, make pipings and install injectors and pump. Tune it properly that EGT, EMP, torque and rpm will be on safe side and send it. Don´t think it too complicated. Don´t repair things which works.
Sometime is quite opinionated and likes to spout those opinions with some numbers that seem to be very inflated... 40-50 mpg with a 400 hp 1z? Do you have actual proof of that? (Eg fuelly records or any other similar things) anybody from anywhere can say that their vehicle has x amount of power and gets x fuel economy. Without real probable numbers, nobody will believe you. Trust me, I run into that a lot working on diesels daily. People say so much rubbish it's not even funny. I live in Missouri, our state motto is the show me state. I need more proof that some internet dude shooting out numbers, show me.
(As another side note, some people take more risks than I do. Like running huge fueling and air mods without building the lower end to handle it long term.)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I used to get my TDIs dyno'd at a shop nearby that did a lot of mod work on Evos and STIs. It seems like ancient history now, but clubbers in New England would hold an annual (somewhat) dyno day, and a couple times we did it at that shop. Dyno and other days, I think I've counted I've done something like 60 pulls with IBW.

One time I was there getting it dyno'd and there was an Evo group there for a dyno day, but no one was dynoing their car Why? The owner told me that if the cars' owners get real numbers it gets in the way of making power claims. Much better to not know the truth. Pretty funny.
 

Mozambiquer

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I used to get my TDIs dyno'd at a shop nearby that did a lot of mod work on Evos and STIs. It seems like ancient history now, but clubbers in New England would hold an annual (somewhat) dyno day, and a couple times we did it at that shop. Dyno and other days, I think I've counted I've done something like 60 pulls with IBW.

One time I was there getting it dyno'd and there was an Evo group there for a dyno day, but no one was dynoing their car Why? The owner told me that if the cars' owners get real numbers it gets in the way of making power claims. Much better to not know the truth. Pretty funny.
I want to dyno my car, but none of the local ones (actually there's only one that I know of and he specializes in semi trucks... I asked about fwd cars, he said he did it once, but it was too hard to set up for that.) have the ability to do fwd cars that I know of. I think there's a car show that normally has a dyno that I'll probably go to this summer. Calculating it, I think it would be between 150-200 hp, but I don't know.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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The shop I mostly went to had a 4 wheel dyno because of all the STI and Evos they ran. They called it "the heartbreak dyno" because it was very conservative. A stock WRX that had 225 HP at the crank would show about 147 WHP on their machine.

One funny thing I remember was that they had IBW idling in 3rd on the dyno once (it does that without stalling) and it was showing 110 ft/lbs. The dyno operator joked that the TDI made more torque at idle than a stock Civic Si makes, period.

I also dyno'd my stock '12 Golf TDI before I sold it. It made 125 HP at the wheels, which is pretty impressive against 140 HP at the crank. Shows that VWs power numbers tend to be conservative. B4s always made more than their claimed 149 ft/lbs of torque.
 
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p0wer

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May 21, 2009
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Jyvaskyla, Finland
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Golf 3 -94 1Z 377hp, Golf 3 Cabrio 4-Motion 1.8T 620hp, Golf 3 Syncro 2.9 VR6 HX52, Bora AJM 4-Motion 2260vk +120% Firad, Passat 3B Syncro AFN 2260vk
Sometime is quite opinionated and likes to spout those opinions with some numbers that seem to be very inflated... 40-50 mpg with a 400 hp 1z? Do you have actual proof of that? (Eg fuelly records or any other similar things) anybody from anywhere can say that their vehicle has x amount of power and gets x fuel economy. Without real probable numbers, nobody will believe you. Trust me, I run into that a lot working on diesels daily. People say so much rubbish it's not even funny. I live in Missouri, our state motto is the show me state. I need more proof that some internet dude shooting out numbers, show me.
(As another side note, some people take more risks than I do. Like running huge fueling and air mods without building the lower end to handle it long term.)
Well, i drove 4 years with this one as a daily so i have calculated it yes quite much every time i fill up, but i don´t take any notes from it. I´ve build or tuned many 300hp+ tdi´s too. Bigger turbo and injectors does not affect for effeciency quite much anything if everything is done properly. For example there are much lower EMP raising effeciency when turbo is bigger.

Here´s one video from this one. Drove 450km to the track, whole day propably 15-20 pulls on mile and drove back to home, as i remember whole trip was somewhere in 5.5-6 liters per 100km including track driving. Any how, does not get quite much any more than stock on normal driving. Not my loss if you do not want to believe it, but that´s how it is. Everything is done by myself and car has stock pistons and rods and base engine is unopened and 400-500tkm driven as i remember. Naturally cylinder head is ported and pistons grinded a bit though, but never got pistons out from engine.

I am doing stage 2 as you say in US, with bigger turbo and few other small tricks just at the moment. Still with stock internals.


 
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NewTdi

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NorCal
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@pOwer; just when I was finished thinking about modding my MK IV Jetta you go and post this .... Time for a bigger turbo and more I guess ...! It’s a beautiful slippery slope.
 

Mongler98

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400hp on a 1z with no girdle plate?
I call bs
also good mpg mean nothing to hp output. i get about 62 mpg cross crountry in my 230hp build AHU but at the track my logs tell me 8mpgand the round trip 1 hour each way plus the 6 minutes of autocross i get about 22mpg.
 

Mozambiquer

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He probably means 400 BHP over there which mean about 150 WHP in 'murica.....
That's my guess as well, and probably uk mpg which would be more believable 40-50 mpg/uk would be 33-41 mpg/us. Seems to be possibly a classical apples to oranges comparison.
 

Poor King

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400hp on a 1z with no girdle plate?
I call bs
also good mpg mean nothing to hp output. i get about 62 mpg cross crountry in my 230hp build AHU but at the track my logs tell me 8mpgand the round trip 1 hour each way plus the 6 minutes of autocross i get about 22mpg.
Well that was the whole point when I wanted a car with two personalities and looks like the diesel can make a great daily driver (+mpg) and weekend track runner.

However p0wer is talking about a 1Z and that type of power out of an ALH is not as easy.
 

[486]

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He probably means 400 BHP over there which mean about 150 WHP in 'murica.....
everyone refuses to understand that it is torque (cylinder pressure) that breaks parts
400 hp at 5500 rpm is 382 ft/lb
382 ft/lb at 2000 rpm is 145 hp
so essentially, yes european power numbers are different than US ones in that they're further to the right on the dyno chart

put a little tiny baby turbo on something that will move more air than you can use (you do use your torque limit maps, right? you should) at low engine speed, and is choking the engine out at the rpm that you can actually start to sneak more power through the little lightweight engine that cannot survive truck engine torque

or use a reasonable sized turbo that will breathe in the RPM range that you can actually make power without breaking things
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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My tuner says three things break engines: Boost, fuel, and revs. Too much of any of those and you'll bend rods, lift the head, or worse. I ran 26 PSI boost with PP502s and an 11mm pump and a 6000 RPM tune for 120K miles on a stock ALH block. Car ran great, but when it was time for a timing belt we found ovaled bores, very worn valve guides, and bent rods. None were extreme enough to be noticeable in use, except for increased oil consumption and smoke at startup. I believe that setup was right at the edge of a stock ALH's strength.
 

Poor King

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My tuner says three things break engines: Boost, fuel, and revs. Too much of any of those and you'll bend rods, lift the head, or worse. I ran 26 PSI boost with PP502s and an 11mm pump and a 6000 RPM tune for 120K miles on a stock ALH block. Car ran great, but when it was time for a timing belt we found ovaled bores, very worn valve guides, and bent rods. None were extreme enough to be noticeable in use, except for increased oil consumption and smoke at startup. I believe that setup was right at the edge of a stock ALH's strength.
Know roughly how much power you were making?
 

Poor King

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So I am going for a stock rebuild of the ALH (only mod arp headbolts), 11mm pump (already purchased), and leaning towards a VNT-17, .520 nozzles, and a mild tune...

Now with that setup and moderate boost for a daily driver, would I benefit from a fmic and aftermarket clutch? Or will the stock intercooler and clutch be just fine.

I do not want to push the VNT-17 past %75 of it's capability due to turbo longevity, well as the motor's internals.
 

nicklockard

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You'll probably need to upgrade the clutch in a few months. FMIC is of no benefit for you in NY except for the cool looking factor.

And, I predict you'll find it surprisingly fun to drive with that setup. A real shoot and scoot delight to drive. Nothing like having reserve hp (useable power under the curve) without having to downshift. You'll be able to quickly grab your spot in traffic. 3rd gear is a blast, you'll see.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I wouldn't worry about stressing the turbo. VNT-17s are incredibly robust. If I were looking for a setup like that I'd stick with your stock turbo (or a new VNT-15 if yours is done) and run a Stage 3 or 3+ tune, but with smaller nozzles. Right now I'm running a VNT-15, 11mm pump, PowerPlus .357s, and RC3+ (19.5 PSI). I've had this setup for the past 130K miles with a Mahle turbo and it's doing fine. Setup makes about 140/250, no smoke, and FE in the high 40s/low 50s. The low rev response of the VNT-15 is far superior to the 17, in my experience. That's why I like it better. Besides it whistles. :)
 

turbocharged798

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I'm currently building an ALH with VNT17, 11mm pump and R520s. Plan is for a torque monster. Engine is built with H beam rods and 12.9 head bolts and ARL pistons. Hello 400 ft/lbs at 2500RPMs. We'll see what happens.
 

Poor King

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You'll probably need to upgrade the clutch in a few months. FMIC is of no benefit for you in NY except for the cool looking factor.

And, I predict you'll find it surprisingly fun to drive with that setup. A real shoot and scoot delight to drive. Nothing like having reserve hp (useable power under the curve) without having to downshift. You'll be able to quickly grab your spot in traffic. 3rd gear is a blast, you'll see.
I wouldn't worry about stressing the turbo. VNT-17s are incredibly robust. If I were looking for a setup like that I'd stick with your stock turbo (or a new VNT-15 if yours is done) and run a Stage 3 or 3+ tune, but with smaller nozzles. Right now I'm running a VNT-15, 11mm pump, PowerPlus .357s, and RC3+ (19.5 PSI). I've had this setup for the past 130K miles with a Mahle turbo and it's doing fine. Setup makes about 140/250, no smoke, and FE in the high 40s/low 50s. The low rev response of the VNT-15 is far superior to the 17, in my experience. That's why I like it better. Besides it whistles. :)

I like what I am hearing. I don't need a speed demon for a daily driver, just enough power to get ahead of the road warring plebs such as myself.

If I can receive 140/250 at a moderate stress level for the entirety of the powerplant, that is plenty. Plus there is so many other details I want to add to the Jetta that are not powerplant related, and going with the rotomaster turbo would help.


I'm currently building an ALH with VNT17, 11mm pump and R520s. Plan is for a torque monster. Engine is built with H beam rods and 12.9 head bolts and ARL pistons. Hello 400 ft/lbs at 2500RPMs. We'll see what happens.
Nice. Then there is that part that convinces myself that if I am going to do a complete overhaul of the motor, might as well purchase aftermarket rods/pistons.

I don't think I have ever been this indecisive about anything. But staying with a VNT-15 is the best way to move forward for myself so that I can start on the GTI build which will cost.
 
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