Future TDI models and biodiesel

[Kai]

I emailed VW of America recently and asked when or if VW is going to produce a TDI again that will run biodiesel (> 5%). The answer I got was that their engineers were investigating it. Prior to this I wrote to the then CEO of VWoA and his assistant called me back with essentially the same story. So my questions is: do any of you have more concrete information about future TDI models and the use of biodiesel?

 

[JSWTDI09]

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Running on anything more than 20% Biodiesel would require major changes to the emissions control systems. It would have to change the way that DPF re-generations occur which would require significant changes to the fuel and control systems. At the very least it would require a fifth fuel injector to inject fuel directly into the exhaust (probably post turbocharger) to begin an active regen to prevent crankcase oil dilution. Other changes would probably also be necessary as well. Since the chances of the US relaxing emissions requirements are pretty slim, these changes would probably increase the cost of making a TDI and many people are currently unwilling to pay the "premium" to upgrade from a gasser to a diesel.

I could be wrong. As VW makes more and more diesels for the NA markets, the per unit costs could go down. In short, only time will tell, but do not be in a hurry.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[RC]

Not until the 2nd generation biofuels are fully out will we have new vehicles designed to run on high precentages/straight biofuels. Or at least I doubt it.

Just hang on, to what you got.

 

[Kai]

What if some states mandate higher than 5% biodiesel blend at the pump? I've heard that a least one midwestern state is considering a 10% mandate. Wouldn't that force VW to either change their fuel and emission systems or else not sell TDIs in that state? Or, at minimum, declare that running a 10% or whatever blend is ok? It seems VW is motivated to sell TDIs in all 50 states . . . so if other states also started mandating higher blends of bio, then what?

 

[JSWTDI09]

We have members here who have run up to B20 and done regular UOAs (Used Oil Analysis) and have found no significant evidence of oil contamination after 10k miles. With B100 it is a different story. I would not worry about B10 at all.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[Kurtland]

What if some states mandate higher than 5% biodiesel blend at the pump? I've heard that a least one midwestern state is considering a 10% mandate. Wouldn't that force VW to either change their fuel and emission systems or else not sell TDIs in that state? Or, at minimum, declare that running a 10% or whatever blend is ok? It seems VW is motivated to sell TDIs in all 50 states . . . so if other states also started mandating higher blends of bio, then what?

I was wondering the same thing I read PA might be up to 10% by next year and that woe create alot of warranty issues

 

[Kai]

Yes, I'm aware that some 2009+ TDI owners are running B20 with no issues. The point is VW would have to change its warranty statement about biodiesel blends if some states mandate, say, B10 or above.

 

[philngrayce]

In the past, VW has not sold diesels in states that had emission issues. I guess that could happen again.

 

[no-blue-screen]

VW won't support higher than B5 because they would have to shorten the OCI ....which they don't want to do.

 

[NickBeek]

Dodge/Cummins approves fleet vehicles up to B20 since '06 or '07. Private vehicles remain at B5. Ford's latest 6.7L diesel is approved up to B20. I would estimate that it is just a matter of time before VW follows suit and approves B20......

 

[Kai]

Dodge/Cummins approves fleet vehicles up to B20 since '06 or '07. Private vehicles remain at B5. Ford's latest 6.7L diesel is approved up to B20. I would estimate that it is just a matter of time before VW follows suit and approves B20......

That sounds more optimistic. VW wants to sell TDIs in all 50 states, and if several states mandate higher levels than B5, VW may very well make the changes necessary to the TDI to sell in those markets.

 

[adamant628]

Do any of the other automakers that sell diesel passenger cars in the US (BMW, Mercedes) have the same issues with high bio blends?

 

[BEN721364]

What if some states mandate higher than 5% biodiesel blend at the pump? I've heard that a least one midwestern state is considering a 10% mandate. Wouldn't that force VW to either change their fuel and emission systems or else not sell TDIs in that state? Or, at minimum, declare that running a 10% or whatever blend is ok? It seems VW is motivated to sell TDIs in all 50 states . . . so if other states also started mandating higher blends of bio, then what?

Goodness gracious. I hope we aren't looking at horrendously expensive tax subsidies for biodiesel fuels and blends like we face with ethanol laced gasoline.

 

[Hurricane Drew]

Illinois has virtually a B11 mandate with the tax subsidies.

 

[BEN721364]

Illinois has virtually a B11 mandate with the tax subsidies.

Even with all Illinois' other fiscal woes! That's sad.

 

[scurvy]

I emailed VW of America recently and asked when or if VW is going to produce a TDI again that will run biodiesel (> 5%). The answer I got was that their engineers were investigating it. Prior to this I wrote to the then CEO of VWoA and his assistant called me back with essentially the same story.

VW has been saying that same story about 'their engineers investigating it' for as long as I've been interested in TDIs. At least they didn't say they 'hope to approve B20 soon' like has been wrongly said too many times.

Don't hold your breath if you're waiting for a new one. You're better off with a VE TDI if you want to run high percentages of biodiesel.

 

[Kai]

It may be that we'll have several different makes of electric cars to choose from before VW, if ever again, makes a TDI that will run B100. Maybe VW is looking at the TDI as a transitional vehicle to sell in the period between petrol vehicles and electric vehicles?

 

[atc98002]

Do any of the other automakers that sell diesel passenger cars in the US (BMW, Mercedes) have the same issues with high bio blends?

Both BMW and Mercedes list B5 as the maximum amount. However, BMW has it really hidden. There is nothing on their web site. I had to download a manual for the 335d, and I found it buried on the fuel section. Mercedes does have it listed on their web site. Not particularly prominent, but it's there.

 

[KonaJack]

Unfortunately for me, I reside in the Chicago area and there are no stations within 100 miles that have 10% or less Biofuel (only greater than 10%). The problem for me is that the area stations that have been selling pure diesel have been rapidly converting to 20% Biofuel in recent weeks (Mobil and BP especially). It is becoming harder and more incovenient for me to find Diesel that won't void the VW warranty on my 2011 CR TDI. I called the VW Care Center and received the standard response that I need to fill up with ULSD or 5% or less Bio. She said if I had to I can add 20% but that VW would not honor the warranty after that. I've read enough blogs and forums to know that the Regen cycle/emissions equipment and possible dilution of crankcase oil are the aspects at issue here. I've been religously adding Opti-lube XPD to help with the lubricity of our notoriously poor ULSD (the dealer tech even added the first dose for me). Even though VW doesn't endorse additives I feel it's a no-brainer since the risk to our HPFP's (besides misfueling with Gasoline or having contaminated Diesel) is mostly from U.S. distributors not adding enough lubricating additives to achieve the recommended 460 wear-scar figure). I may be at a crossroads where I won't be able fuel my TDI properly here in the Chicago area and either have to sell it or risk the financial toll keeping it could bring.

 

[BEN721364]

Is diesel "bio fuel" subsidized in the Midwest like ethanol laced gasoline is? What is the advantage it offers that offsets any drawbacks?

Unfortunately for me, I reside in the Chicago area and there are no stations within 100 miles that have 10% or less Biofuel (only greater than 10%). The problem for me is that the area stations that have been selling pure diesel have been rapidly converting to 20% Biofuel in recent weeks (Mobil and BP especially). It is becoming harder and more incovenient for me to find Diesel that won't void the VW warranty on my 2011 CR TDI. I called the VW Care Center and received the standard response that I need to fill up with ULSD or 5% or less Bio. She said if I had to I can add 20% but that VW would not honor the warranty after that. I've read enough blogs and forums to know that the Regen cycle/emissions equipment and possible dilution of crankcase oil are the aspects at issue here. I've been religously adding Opti-lube XPD to help with the lubricity of our notoriously poor ULSD (the dealer tech even added the first dose for me). Even though VW doesn't endorse additives I feel it's a no-brainer since the risk to our HPFP's (besides misfueling with Gasoline or having contaminated Diesel) is mostly from U.S. distributors not adding enough lubricating additives to achieve the recommended 460 wear-scar figure). I may be at a crossroads where I won't be able fuel my TDI properly here in the Chicago area and either have to sell it or risk the financial toll keeping it could bring.

 

[KonaJack]

Yes it is - I'm not sure this is accurate but I've heard to the tune of 20 cents a gallon or so. We also have no ability to purchase non-ethanol gasoline either. I have an older Alfa Romeo which has natural rubber components in the fuel delivery system (ethanol wrecks havoc on rubber) I have to drive about 100 miles to reach a county west of Milwaukee WI that doesbn't mandate ethanol. In the case of ethanol, your mileage drops (I notice about 2 or 3 MPG less) and you have an increased risk of water accumulation and rusting. There is also more risk for water in the system with Biofuel as well. As far as drivability, Ethanol-laced gas is worse than pure gasoline; and the metrics show it takes more energy to convert plantstuff into ethanol (energy used for planting/harvesting/chemicals etc) than to refine traditional oil. I can't yet speak to the drivability advantages of Biofuel since I have not yet used it. Supposedly, ethanol (along with oxygenation) reduces ozone-generation slightly (however we now burn more fuel since ethanol reduces MPG), and NE IL, NW IN, SE WI has very poor air quality - hence the EPA has designed a unique blend JUST FOR US. This is also why we have some of the most expensive fuel in the country (currently about 4.29 for regular - higher in the city) - the EPA will not allow any other fuel to be brought in except that which is produced by 2 (I believe) specific refineries. In both cases, politics takes a front seat as to why we they are promoted. There may be a logical argument for some Biofuel blends but I can think of none for ethanol other than lobbyists and politicians. Supposedly Archer Daniels Midland (an Illinois Company -and very politically connected at that) is working with VW to assess the viability of 20% Biodiesel in current CR TDIs. They produce a prodiguous amount of ethanol and are expanding thier biodiesel production.

 

[Rxfire]

For gasoline---Go to the local small airport, and get 100LL Avgas (LL=low lead) for older cars (like the Alfa Romeo mentioned above). It still has quite a bit of lead in it.

Do not do this with any vehicle with a catalytic converter, or a car built after (what year? 1987?) 1987, as they were designed for No Lead.

I use it in my 1975 Ford, my 1985 Evinrude, etc. Yes, it costs $1 per gallon more, but just like walrus meat, "it don't never go bad". If your car sits for weeks/months, you will save money. It is designed to sit in airplanes for long periods of time and not go bad (ya can't allow fuel in an airplane that will go bad very fast).

 

[philngrayce]

Do you have room for a 275 gallon tank in your garage, or even in the basement? You can probably get pure diesel, or B5, delivered in bulk. You might even save a little money and you won't have to go to the gas station anymore.

 

[El Dobro]

Both BMW and Mercedes list B5 as the maximum amount. However, BMW has it really hidden. There is nothing on their web site. I had to download a manual for the 335d, and I found it buried on the fuel section. Mercedes does have it listed on their web site. Not particularly prominent, but it's there.

GM also has a 5% limit for the Duramax engines with the DPF.

 

[chfscott]

Unfortunately for me, I reside in the Chicago area and there are no stations within 100 miles that have 10% or less Biofuel (only greater than 10%). The problem for me is that the area stations that have been selling pure diesel have been rapidly converting to 20% Biofuel in recent weeks (Mobil and BP especially). It is becoming harder and more incovenient for me to find Diesel that won't void the VW warranty on my 2011 CR TDI. I called the VW Care Center and received the standard response that I need to fill up with ULSD or 5% or less Bio. She said if I had to I can add 20% but that VW would not honor the warranty after that. I've read enough blogs and forums to know that the Regen cycle/emissions equipment and possible dilution of crankcase oil are the aspects at issue here. I've been religously adding Opti-lube XPD to help with the lubricity of our notoriously poor ULSD (the dealer tech even added the first dose for me). Even though VW doesn't endorse additives I feel it's a no-brainer since the risk to our HPFP's (besides misfueling with Gasoline or having contaminated Diesel) is mostly from U.S. distributors not adding enough lubricating additives to achieve the recommended 460 wear-scar figure). I may be at a crossroads where I won't be able fuel my TDI properly here in the Chicago area and either have to sell it or risk the financial toll keeping it could bring.

Are you sure it's 20%? The tax break in Illinois for biodiesel kicks in at 11% and biodiesel is actually more expensive than regular d2 so I would guess that they are only adding biodiesel to reach that 11% threshold. All that said, 11% is still more than VW allows for. On the plus side the bio gives you more than enough lubricity, but of course we have potential warranty worries. One thing to consider in that regard is if you should ever have a waranty issue, demand to know where the dealer fueled the car when they sold it to you. If they are anything like my dealership they went to the local Speedway that has a B5-20 sticker on the pump and in our state that generally means 11%. As for places to go, I use Meijer stations and the Lake Forest and Belvidere oasis stations do not have the B5-B20 stickers. A last thought on warranty concerns, I am no lawyer, but it would probably be illegal(fraud) for VW to sell a car in an area that one cannot reasonably be expected to find proper fuel. I hope this helps a little.

 

[KonaJack]

You are right that the tax break kicks in for 11% or more - which is why more stations with a blend have had 11% or more. For whatever, I've been seeing a slew of NEW pumps at stations I've visited before that have new signs and BIG BOLD lettering touting the fuel as 20% Biofuel. Ironically, the Mobil station in Hoffman Estates that I first saw it at also had a large warning that the fuel 'MAY NOT comply with your Vehicle Manufacturer's requirements or recommendations'. It also stated that the new diesel fuel was now UNBRANDED. I didn't stay long enough to read the rest as I was on empty.

 

[scurvy]

For whatever, I've been seeing a slew of NEW pumps at stations I've visited before that have new signs and BIG BOLD lettering touting the fuel as 20% Biofuel.

The stickers say something along the lines of 'May contain biomass-derived biodiesel blends from 5 - 20%', which is stupidly the language set forth in Illinois Public Act 095-0381 even for B11, which is the near-universal blend available from every pump unless stickered as a specific blend or straight ULSD.

 

[ikendu]

There may be a logical argument for some Biofuel blends but I can think of none for ethanol other than lobbyists and politicians.

Have you noticed that even though the King of Bahrain (His Majesty the King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa) is firing on his own people that we don't say much about it? Do you know of the big naval base we keep in Bahrain?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Support_Activity_Bahrain

U.S. produced biofuels don't require such bases and don't keep us from supporting democracy for people that want it. Imported petroleum... apparently does.

 

[BEN721364]

"...U.S. produced biofuels don't require such bases and don't keep us from supporting democracy for people that want it. Imported petroleum... apparently does."

Do any of you know how the BTU content of 'biofuel' [diesel] compares to fossil based diesel fuel, after factoring in fossil derived diesel or other fuel used to produce, transport and blend it?

Have you noticed that even though the King of Bahrain (His Majesty the King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa) is firing on his own people that we don't say much about it? Do you know of the big naval base we keep in Bahrain?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Support_Activity_Bahrain

U.S. produced biofuels don't require such bases and don't keep us from supporting democracy for people that want it. Imported petroleum... apparently does.

 

[ikendu]

Do any of you know how the BTU content of 'biofuel' [diesel] compares to fossil based diesel fuel, after factoring in fossil derived diesel or other fuel used to produce, transport and blend it?

Gallon for gallon, I believe B100 has about 10% less BTUs than regular petroleum diesel.

For every unit of energy used to grow, harvest, manufacture and transport virgin soy B100, you get 3.2 units in return. For rapeseed or mustard seed, the ratio is 1:4.3 (better).

Since restaurant fryer oil has already served its original purpose, the guy that makes my recycled B100 figures that we are getting a 1:12 ratio. He uses solar PV panels to provide part of the electricity and solar hot water collectors for part of the process heat.