Diesel vs. Hybrid

[dwf]

There's more than one way to build an environmentally-friendly car.

While carmakers lament their overflowing lots full of unsold cars, slow demand isn't a problem for Volkswagen's 2009 Jetta TDI, the first passenger car with a clean-diesel engine that gets 40 miles per gallon on the highway. "We're selling every one we get," said Jim Gill, a spokesman for Volkswagen Group of America. The performance-oriented and fuel-efficient engines are also making their way into the company's Rabbit and its Touareg SUV.

Read Artical Here: http://www.newsweek.com/id/183150

 

[dieselyeti]

I posted the link to this article twice in the last two days - what happened to it??

Oddly enough, Honda *has* been investing in diesel technology with its new converter design. We're supposed to see their new diesel engine in an Acura model next year IIRC. Maybe that's been put on hold?

 

[tiguando]

Honda cancelled their plans aka "indefinite hold" to sell the Acura TSX diesel in the US, supposedly because they couldn't meet emissions standards with an automatic for less than a $5,000 premium over the gas model. Funny how Volkswagen can do it and for far less.

 

[ruking]

It is even more odd, in that Honda specifically went from concept to market in little to no time, relatively with the 2004, 2.2 iCTDI to compete in the European market. So the super cool engine is not only going on MY 5/6 years old, but Honda also has had time to develop their own version of the DSG should that be in the cards. Indeed they said and still maintain the diesel effort is key to its' European competitive strategy. It is in the so called "Saloon" model Accord (to us) and is in the so called Civic (to us) platforms.

 

[TDIdragon]

I would love to have a newer TDI, but Volkswagen's reliability issues seem to be getting the better of many new owners. To make matters worse, we have no choices. Where is the competition for the US light duty diesel market???

With Honda putting an "indefinite hold" on the iCTDi engine and other manufacturers putting a damper on light duty (half ton) trucks sporting new diesel engines, will Subaru back out of offering the boxer turbo diesel to the United States???

The Subaru Forester Turbo Diesel with the 6 speed manual and the Subaru All-Wheel-Drive ranks high on my list of alternatives. I hope that it comes to the United States.

 

[ruking]

I would love to have a newer TDI, but Volkswagen's reliability issues seem to be getting the better of many new owners. To make matters worse, we have no choices. Where is the competition for the US light duty diesel market???

With Honda putting an "indefinite hold" on the iCTDi engine and other manufacturers putting a damper on light duty (half ton) trucks sporting new diesel engines, will Subaru back out of offering the boxer turbo diesel to the United States???

The Subaru Forester Turbo Diesel with the 6 speed manual and the Subaru All-Wheel-Drive ranks high on my list of alternatives. I hope that it comes to the United States.

VW certainly does not do itself any favors by not radically keeping down that rate or perception of that rate to that of Honda's for example. Yes it is pretty well known that they have done radical things to get down the actual rate.

Even Subaru whose owners used to put up with MANY issues, still are pretty rabid fans. (perhaps we are not unlike them)

 

[TDIdragon]

VW certainly does not do itself any favors by not radically keeping down that rate or perception of that rate to that of Honda's for example. Yes it is pretty well known that they have done radical things to get down the actual rate.

Even Subaru whose owners used to put up with MANY issues, still are pretty rabid fans. (perhaps we are not unlike them)

Of the Volkswagens and Hondas and Subarus that I have owned personally, the Hondas were by far the least troubled. However, I wouldn't put Subaru and Volkswagen in the same category. From my 1982 Rabbit Pickup 1.6D to my mother's 2004 Golf TDI, the Volkswagens have been troublesome on a good day. My 1998 Jetta TDI is the only exception with issues not surfacing until 190,000 miles. My 1994 Subaru Legacy was flawless for 150,000 miles until it was given to my sister.

My boss has an 08' Forester 2.5 that is absolutely wonderful. That car would be perfect for me if it sported a turbo diesel engine and a manual transmission.

 

[ruking]

My experience has been "selectively good" as I've read a lot of other posts and led to believe. I had a 1970's Beetle bought one year old/used with app 10,000 miles. I sold it @ app 250k miles. I had the clutch done @ 119k miles. It didn't really need it, but hey it was apart, so I had it done. The owner of the shop saw my predicament and offered to sell me the part and do the labor for a case of Heineken. Those 1.5k to 3k oil changes were not a delightful drill and getting a new muffler and tube set every other year or so was no fun either.

I had a new 1978 Rabbit and sold it at 98,000 miles, the A/C blew out on the way out of the Everglades in August of course, but fixed under warranty.

I am told the 2003 TDI is one of the best of breed for the MK IV gen. I have had very few issues with it@ 113,000 miles. TSB's, TB/WP change, new tires @ 112,000 miles. Got an alignment, but didnt need it at 100,000 miles (special price at a GTG, but didnt want to say thanks but no thanks, after he got it up on the rack).

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

A friend of mine drives a tow truck. If you want to know what is the most reliable, ask a tow truck driver!

He says Hondas and Mitsubishis rarely need towing for a mechanical or other type of failure.

Hybrids, and especially the Toyota Prius are among the MOST in need of towing due to failures!

Surprisingly, he says VW's rarely need a tow. I don't know how that's possible...but that's what he says. Maybe people don't get them towed because they know the dealer will just screw it up, so they go him in limp-mode? Hehehe.... Or...maybe...they're kind of reliable?!?

So anyway, if you are thinking of choosing a hybrid, ask a tow truck driver what they think of that idea...

 

[jerryofva]

The typical owner's view of vehicle reliability is highly personal. Experience is everything. My 1997 Subaru was a high maintainance vehicle but it never left me sitting at the side of the road. Contrast that with my 1990 Jetta which actually didn't cost me all that much to maintain but continually left my wife stranded at work with some major failure that get fixed for little or now cost becuase of the warrantee. Despite the high owner cost of the Subaru I never felt negative about the car because everytime I turned the key it started. I bad mouthed the Jetta for years until I bought my 2005 TDI which has been problem free (so far).

The most reliable car I ever owned is my 2000 Intrepid now driven by my son at the Univeristy of Minnesota. 100K+ miles, all orginal parts and it starts right up at -25 degrees.

 

[BadMonKey]

A friend of mine drives a tow truck. If you want to know what is the most reliable, ask a tow truck driver!

He says Hondas and Mitsubishis rarely need towing for a mechanical or other type of failure.

Hybrids, and especially the Toyota Prius are among the MOST in need of towing due to failures!

Surprisingly, he says VW's rarely need a tow. I don't know how that's possible...but that's what he says. Maybe people don't get them towed because they know the dealer will just screw it up, so they go him in limp-mode? Hehehe.... Or...maybe...they're kind of reliable?!?

So anyway, if you are thinking of choosing a hybrid, ask a tow truck driver what they think of that idea...

Whattttt? Every reliability testing I've seen has the Prius close to the top (Edmunds, JD Power, Consumer Reports, etccc.). Our Prius went in for service twice since we've owned it, once for a simple recal and the 2nd time for computer related issue. Both times the car was driven to the dealer with same day return. The first 5 months i owned my Golf i had the tow truck service on speed dial. Its getting better now after about $4K of work. I havent heard of any problems with the respected hybrids from Toyota and Honda.

 

[velociT]

I was reading an article in this months Automobile Magazine.

The new prius has to kick the gas motor on above 25mph, and has a power and ecnomy mode.

I feel sorry for them, their power mode is a more responsive gas pedal.

The TDI's power mode is a turbo, and you can have power mode and economy mode at the same time.

 

[Rexking414]

I lost count of how many Hon-DUH's and TOYota's I've seen sitting on the side of the highways and on tow trucks. But I recently see one New Beetle on a flat bed, and that's all I've ever seen that I can recall wasn't wrecked. And plus I prefer a car that has a body that last more than a few years before the shell rusts and falls off.

My car in almost 4 years of onwner ship at under 90K, has had a coolant sensor, 14 bucks, and a brake light switch for 5 bucks and has been trouble free, never stranded. With the right maintenance done by me. But I take care of it though....

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

Whattttt? Every reliability testing I've seen has the Prius close to the top (Edmunds, JD Power, Consumer Reports, etccc.). Our Prius went in for service twice since we've owned it, once for a simple recal and the 2nd time for computer related issue. Both times the car was driven to the dealer with same day return. The first 5 months i owned my Golf i had the tow truck service on speed dial. Its getting better now after about $4K of work. I havent heard of any problems with the respected hybrids from Toyota and Honda.

I dunno... Maybe it's just a coincidence that he has to tow a lot of Priuses for whatever reason.

Regardless of what all the magazines and different rating agencies say, I'd believe a tow truck driver above them all. They see what breaks down in the real world.

I'll try to get more details from my friend... For example, I could ask him how many he has towed this week compared with other types of cars.

 

[dr61]

Regardless of what all the magazines and different rating agencies say, I'd believe a tow truck driver above them all. They see what breaks down in the real world.

I disagree. The number of cars of a given type a tow truck driver tows depends to a great degree on the popularity of that type in a given area. This is NOT an accurate way to judge reliability.

 

[twob4s]

I disagree. The number of cars of a given type a tow truck driver tows depends to a great degree on the popularity of that type in a given area. This is NOT an accurate way to judge reliability.

I agree, not very scientific. However, it also depends on the type of failure, sure the VW may be in the shop a lot but it may not be a problem that leaves you sitting at the side of the road. Maybe the Prius is reliable but when something does go wrong, you sit.

Personally, I would prefer a few more repairs than being stranded.

 

[goTDIcandy]

Hi! Having an '05 TDI Golf at 45,000miles, the car has given me a few maintenance problems, but it was still under warrenty. Having driven a rental Prius on the "fix the TDI days", I'd much rather drive my TDI. It runs on Biodiesel, it's more fun to drive, has more cat-carrier (i.e., 5cats in one trip to the Vet!) room, and the visibility from all sides is much better. That 'bar' in the backwindow blocked too much view and the side windows were distracting. The insurance on the Prius was outrageou$, compared to other rentals I've driven. Just my .02!
Kristina

 

[jhintontdi]

I dunno... Maybe it's just a coincidence that he has to tow a lot of Priuses for whatever reason.

Regardless of what all the magazines and different rating agencies say, I'd believe a tow truck driver above them all. They see what breaks down in the real world.

The 2004-2009 Prius has a fuel bladder instead of a traditional fuel tank. Because of this bladder the amount of fuel pumped from "empty" to "full" can vary by as much as 3 to 4 gallons depending on the expansion of the bladder. This leads to people running out of fuel when they trust the odometer more than the fuel gage. (For example the theoretical mileage for a Prius @ EPA mileage is 571 miles but I have never gone more than 400 miles on a tank and my normal tank is 350 miles)

A correction to a post above: The 2010 Prius can run on the electric motor alone up to 41 mph. (This is the same as the 2004 - 2009 Prius)

 

[ikendu]

I really love my '03 Golf TDI but when PHEVs become mass produced and reasonably priced, I will likely never own another VW. My nephew had a Golf and had many problems with the electrical system (will now never own a VW again). My own electrical system has been pretty quirky (turn signals intermittant, brake lights intermittant, etc.). Dealer was never able to find anything. I finally tracked it down to a couple of faulty lines in the defroster on the back window (which the dealer would not replace under my extended warranty so I'm living with the issue). Apparently two faulty defroster lines causes my electrical system to become "unbalanced".

The most important decision for me is whatever vehicle allows me to consume the least amount of imported energy. My Golf has allowed me to cut my use of Petroleum by 75% by using biodiesel in the summer/spring/fall. My next vehicle will operate mostly on electricity produced here in the good 'ole U. S. of A.

Plenty of life left in my '03 Golf until then.

 

[BadMonKey]

The 2004-2009 Prius has a fuel bladder instead of a traditional fuel tank. Because of this bladder the amount of fuel pumped from "empty" to "full" can vary by as much as 3 to 4 gallons depending on the expansion of the bladder. This leads to people running out of fuel when they trust the odometer more than the fuel gage. (For example the theoretical mileage for a Prius @ EPA mileage is 571 miles but I have never gone more than 400 miles on a tank and my normal tank is 350 miles)

A correction to a post above: The 2010 Prius can run on the electric motor alone up to 41 mph. (This is the same as the 2004 - 2009 Prius)

Fill your car up at a slower rate to let the bladder expand, just like TDI's if you fill up on the fastest setting you get less fuel in the tank. I've never got below 500 miles on a tank. How many gallons are you putting in, it should be around 8-9. The Prius beeps at you and flashes the fuel gauge when you have 40 miles of fuel left so you would have to be pretty clueless to run it out completely empty.

 

[BadMonKey]

I was reading an article in this months Automobile Magazine.

The new prius has to kick the gas motor on above 25mph, and has a power and ecnomy mode.

I feel sorry for them, their power mode is a more responsive gas pedal.

The TDI's power mode is a turbo, and you can have power mode and economy mode at the same time.

You shouldn't feel sorry the electric engine provides more boost then a stock turbo will, the reason a Prius has a faster 0-60 time (I haven't compared the 09 Jetta to the 10 Prius yet but it looks like the Jetta has the upper hand but Toyota increase the mpg's instead of decreasing them like VW)

The Golf did give the Prius a stomping on mpgs on a recent trip over the mountains last weekend. On a round trip of 350 miles with almost 7000' elevation change the TDI beat the Prius by 12mpg!

Using winter fuels
Prius - 47mpg trip average (day-day driving average is 51mpg)
Golf - 59mpg trip average (day-day driving average is 42mpg)

 

[Ketty]

Awesome article. I have had two other VW's, a Jetta that had zero problems, we sold it after 90k miles (bought it new) and we have a Passat Wagon right now that just turned over 120 - zero problems. Ok, the window clips broke, but zero other than that. I've always hear about VW's unreliability, but I have to say that I have never seen that in the real world, unless you count my mom's 1972 Beetle that broke down every other day when I was 8 (it had 250k miles).

 

[John06jetta]

A lot of people keep talking about how unreliable the VWs are. The new A5s have been very reliable from everything I have been reading. My family has two an 2006 Jetta, and 2009 JSW. It is still too early to say how reliable the wagen will be but the 06 has been great. I think reliablility is alot better than it may have been in the past.

 

[BadMonKey]

No car manufacturer is perfect and every model/make produces lemons, the question is what our the odds of you getting the lemon and how the dealer handles the lemons when they are discovered. VW makes their problems worse by having crappy dealers with poor customer service and incompetent mechanics. So when a VW mechanic plays the replace the part and see if it works game it makes their repair visits go through the roof.

A Friend bought a Rav4 lemon that had multiple major failures within the 1st 10K miles and they ended up getting a brand new Rav4 and free PM service for 36K miles to make up for their troubles.

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

I agree, not very scientific. However, it also depends on the type of failure, sure the VW may be in the shop a lot but it may not be a problem that leaves you sitting at the side of the road. Maybe the Prius is reliable but when something does go wrong, you sit.

Personally, I would prefer a few more repairs than being stranded.

Exactly. Apparently the type of failures that are common with the Prius is the computer system just says "NO" and you sit.

Prius owner: "Go forward!"

Prius: "Error. NO."

VW owner: "Go forward!"

VW: "Do I have to? Okay, if I must. CEL. Limp. 70km/h max, but at least you get home."

 

[DRbillZ]

Don't care about "environmentally-friendly"..........as defined by someone else.

And our '00 New Beetle(117,000 miles with no problems) and '06 Jetta(53,000 miles with no problems) average 41 mpg and get 50 hwy.

Funny, they have a side article "Why don't our cars get 50mpg" ( http://www.newsweek.com/id/130439 ). Uh, YOUR'S might not but OUR'S do

 

[BadMonKey]

Exactly. Apparently the type of failures that are common with the Prius is the computer system just says "NO" and you sit.

Prius owner: "Go forward!"

Prius: "Error. NO."

VW owner: "Go forward!"

VW: "Do I have to? Okay, if I must. CEL. Limp. 70km/h max, but at least you get home."

And where would this "error. no." appear? The Prius isn't that different from a normal gasser, never heard of a problem like this.

 

[Nico3d3]

It's a bad news to hear that Honda will put their project on hold but, I heard the Suzuki SX4 would come with a diesel engine in the next year. They would use a 1.6 Peugeot engine.

 

[DPM]

^^ good combo. Much more economical than the 1.9 Fiat engine...

 

[Beardrick]

For what it's worth...

Every manufacturer can have an off day. My wife's 2.5 Impreza is having the short block replaced next week for piston slap - at 85000 KM!