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CR Injectors

bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
TDI
Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
remove the fuel lines and label, put into zip-lok bag to keep clean. they use a 17mm wrench. 17mm offset tubing wrench is best. Socket T40055 can also be helpful, and you will need it to re-torque the injector lines.

Pull up the center (circular part) of the return line to release, the ears stay down


release position below


remove the four 4mm allen cap screws and rotate the cover plate to reveal the tension plate bolts as show

remove the two 10mm nuts, and gently tap with the slide hammer, vw.snapon.com part numbers T10055 (hammer)
and T10055/1 (injector adapter) installed in photo above


injectors flow bench test @ dfispdx.com:
test benches use 1487AW2 fluid per ISO9001

03L 130 277C (CDCA) T5 transporter, Bosch# 0445116 035
Full load: Pulse Width 2.0 (mS), 1600 RPM, 42mL injection, 20 mL return
Low Idle: P/W 1.5, 800 RPM, 18mL, 8 mL return

03L 130 277A (CJAA) 140HP CR from a vendor, Bosch# 0445116 011
Full load: P/W 2.0, 1500 RPM, 58 mL, 18 mL return **Cant believe that**
Low Idle: P/W 1.5, 800 RPM, 18 mL, 8 mL return

Incase that was an extruded injector, so I pulled one of my own:
<flows to be updated here>

here are the CJAA injectors that we have (top) and the CDCA injector from the T5 transporter and Amerok (bottom), the same except the sweated on/shrink fit collar


here's a close up of the part numbers. on the top row, the VW part number. the "A" is the CJAA, the "C" is the CDCA. the bottom row first 10 digits is the bosch number

NOTICE: the flat area up top is not the same the
CJAA on left, tip of injector to bottom of flat is 5.956 inches, 0.350 inches wide
CDCA on right is, tip of injector to bottom of flat is 6.116 inches, 0.511 inches wide
the bottom of the flat is what holds down the injector. a shim will have to be made to use the "C" injector

the part numbers for the CJAA injector seals (and I'm asuming the CBEA also) are:
Top return line O-ring 059 130 119
Middle O-ring WHT 000 884
Bottom copper crush O-ring 059 130 519

more to be updated

referance:
Audi A4R4 450HP CBEA (CR) Build
CR140 Power: Round One
Upgrading NA CR 140 to EU CR 170
CR Big Turbo Kit? Tuning?
 
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bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
TDI
Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
Other very informative posts from referances above

Rub87 said:
Here is the CAGx duration map.. curious to see the other possibilities, especially the 180hp ones, as one can see, around 820usec for 78mg at 1800bar.. at 4000rpm, 1msec is 24 degCA.. so injectors are definatly not small as seen on most other OEM's, but they're not huge either

Rub87 said:
CBEA Duration:


CAGx Duration:


T5 BiTDI Duration:

Did some more digging this morning since it came up on another forum.

The CBBB engine code CR170 found in the passat and GTD in the UK and possibly other places in europe:

Uses the same replacement cylinder head which means the turbo bolts up and the injectors would fit the same. This disproves rumors stating otherwise.

to further back this up the CBBB we have in house uses the same fitting on the outlet of the turbo to the DPF (DPF is different itself). This means that the turbo outlet would bolt right up to a US CR140 factory DPF. I have a DPF delete we installed on our CBBB right next to me awaiting to go on my CJAA. To go one step further to ensure the manifold/turbo bolt to the cylinder head I have confirmed that the CR140 CJAA and the CR170 CBBB have the exact same exhaust manifold gasket part number, this means they have the same bolt pattern.

There may still be some misalignment of the EGR ports and other small things but many people swapping would be blocking those off anyway meaning that is less critical. ITs possible some chagnes to the EGR and how it routes to the intake may also be different as i have not checked into that but that can all easily be done by sourcing the factory parts or building them aftermarket.

Unrelated but according to engineer/owner of the CR170 in our A3 over in the UK shares the same airbox as the 2.0t and other petrol applications. I had mine apart earlier this week and ours is much different internally then what was in our 2.0T development car we had in the US. About 1/3 of the airfilter is reserved only for cold starts below 2 celcius and is otherwise closed off during normal "warm" operation.

I've got a buddy who is a BW dealer but does not deal with these applications checking to see pricing and availability of the CBBB turbo in North America.


The NMS Passat CR140 does have a different cylinder head part number, different turbo number than the US CJAA CR140 and according to the diagram has oval ports out of the manifold not round. The part number for the exhaust gasket is also different. So without digging further it would seem the CBBB turbo would not bolt on the NMS Passat CR140 and we already know they use a different type of injectors which means that the CR170s probably could not be controlled by the ecu in that application.

chris@revotechnik said:
bhutchins said:
according to http://www.ginner.at/images/Injektoren_2011.pdf the 03L130277 injectors I have are used for 103kW (140HP) CBAB as well as the 125kW (170HP) CBBB motors, including tiguani, passat and golf TDi's. the US motors are a CJA.

does the CBAB and CBBB have differnt turbo's?
There are euro CR140 applications that actually use the CR170 parts. Some have both the turbo and injectors others have just the injectors. The latter being more common.

CJAA injectors are 03l 130 277A
CBBB and CBAB injectors are 03l 130 277 (as listed above)

CJAA turbo is 03L 253 056

CBAB turbo is 03L 253 056A

CBBB turbo is 03L 253 056C


Note this is based on grabs from etka about 6 months ago so part numbers may have superseded.

None of this applies to the US specific B7 passat 2.0 TDI as the engine is different including the turbo and injectors from other versions including the US CJAA.
 
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bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
TDI
Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
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Charrigan

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Location
Ann Arbor,Mi
TDI
09 Jetta
I cant wait for power results.... When are you installing them?

I have a family member who works for bosch and I can obtain these pretty easily and much less than retail pricing.
 

bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
TDI
Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
Matt (Whitbread) believes that they can support 240-250HP alone, but Mark Malone mentioned that there is boost creep here with the factory turbo, and turbo should be upsized to prevent overboost, as the stock turbo is vacuum controlled. This will also help EGT,as does my FMIC and upsized exhaust :)

A clutch and limited slip diff will also be required to put it to the pavement. It's known that Kyle at Diesel-performance.com is working on a upsized turbo, hopefully a GTB2260VK. At that point the injectors would really help.
 

JFettig

Vendor
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Location
Blaine, MN
TDI
B5 Passat, 2010 Jetta
Are you sure you didn't misunderstand Matt? The stock turbo won't handle that. GTB2260VK will take care of that problem.
 

bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
TDI
Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
re-reading... you are correct
Whitbread said:
....A 2260vk would be quite nasty on a CR. Smokeless 240-250 should be easy with enough fuel from the t5 injectors.....
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
I guess with any of the stock injectors 250hp should be no problem at all.. with enough air egts should be no issue with the slightly longer duration
 

bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
TDI
Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
I couldnt believe that 170 HP CDCA "C" injectors flowed less than the 140 HP CJAA "A" injectors, so I took # 4 out of my car, and I am having one of each retested today.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
can you matbe ask the testing pressure and the number of shotst at which the injectors are tested?
 

bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
TDI
Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
Put links to the injector test data in post 3. the numbers look very close to the tables Ruben shared (reposted in post 2 above).

added some dimensions toward bottom of post 1 from flats to nozzle tip

by using linear regression on Rubens tables
at 1500 uS and 800 Bar, the 277 A (CBEA / CJAA injectors) would have an injection quantity of 78.5 ml
at the same pulse width and pressure the 277 C (CDCA injectors) would inject a quantity of 90.73 ml
that is a 15.5% increase in fuel delivery
 
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ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
I suppose these injectors need to be tested at operating pressures to give an accurate comparison? @ 1800bar 240ps 3.0 v6 injectors flow 12% more than 140 injectors. I'm still awaiting actual figures!

Ryan
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
I suppose these injectors need to be tested at operating pressures to give an accurate comparison? @ 1800bar 240ps 3.0 v6 injectors flow 12% more than 140 injectors. I'm still awaiting actual figures!

Ryan

I really recommand just comparing the durationmaps.. these are withing 1 to 2 mg accurate for the higher injector quantities.. and as you can see in the map after a certain injected quantity the duration becomes linear with a linear rising IQ, which means its no rocketscience to extrapolate how much the injectors will flow a railpressure given in the durationmap.
 

bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
TDI
Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
while the injector length and connections are all the same....


the hold down flats will have to be machined 0.152 inches (according to my dial indicator) once the aluminum ring is removed, or washers of that thickness placed on the hold down studs if the studs have enough length
 
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TDIsyncro

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2005
Location
Saskatoon, SK
TDI
Audi/TDI x 2
nice work on this thread. It will give some clear instructions on what mods are required to utilize these injectors. I am adding a link to this thread in mine. :)
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
why not just add some washers with the correct thickness beneath the bracket..?
 

bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
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Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
the hold down flat is higher up on the "C" injector. In the pictures, the copper part near the nozzle tip is the crush washer. there may be enough stud length on the hold down bracked, if so, I could put washers of that thickness on the stud under the hold down bracket. that way the hold down doesnt bend when torqued to 10 N-M (7 ft-lb).
 

bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
TDI
Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
4 BAR plug and play MAP

This one.

It has Part Number: 03K 906 051 from VAG and comes from new 2.0L 16V Bi-Turbo TDI with 180hp.


Clipped from this thread... Thanks Alex;)
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=261183&highlight=4bar

Straight bolt in for the small MAP boss, plugs straight in as well.
I got mine from ECS for less than $70, it did take them a month and a half though.

O.C.
Stock pressure sensor 07L 907 386 ?2.5 BAR? (36.3 psi)
VW 3 BAR MAP Manifold Pressure Sensor 038 906 051 C (43.5 psi)
VW 4 BAR MAP Manifold Pressure Sensor 03K 906 051 (58.0 psi)
 
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bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
TDI
Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
I'm sitting on the injectors, waiting for a Turbo kit first. Apparently the stock injectors can support the GTB2260vk with room to spare.
 

ErlingK

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Location
Norway
TDI
Audi A6 Allroad 3.0 BiTdi 313ps
Hi, I'm considering to get a cr engine, but want to know more about limits of the injector. Does anybody have estimated numbers on max hp these injectors support: 2.0 140 cr, 2.0 170 cr, 3.0 233/240 cr. We can use hp/cyl to keep it easy comparing 4cyl and 6cyl. And last, are injectors from different models interchangeable or not, have seen alot of contradicting statements.
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
depends on railpressure and max time (crank angle, and thus rpm) you want to inject. but lets say the pump is a limit before the injector unless you plan on spinning really high rpm
 

bassman5066

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2011
Location
Honey Brook PA
TDI
2011 Golf 2 Door TDI (sold back for Dieselgate), 91 Golf 4 Door with 1Z swap
Watching this one... :thumbup:

Sent from my Bosch Motronic ECM via VCDS Version 1.9LVE
 

bhutchins

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
SW Portland OR
TDI
Jetta TDiCup, 02Q built Sept 2010
As Ruben stated, the pump is currently the limit. Not a problem with the stock turbo since it runs out of boost at 4,000 rpm


but with a GTB2260VK turbo, I can pull to 5,000 rpm, then when shifting gears I will go into limp mode on low rail pressure. Malone is working on adjusting the trip point for my next update


as stated earlier in this thread, the CDCA (T5 transporter & Amarock) injectors have 20% more flow, but the hold down flats on the piezo are slightly elevated compared to the CJAA injectors
 
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