Boost lag on GTB2260VK, Solutions?
- Thread starter BritishBora
- Start date
Koehn
Well-known member
Lots of people don't hook up the water lines, but I think that's probably just because they're being lazy. In a journal bearing turbo, the high oil flow is used for both cooling and lubrication of the CHRA. A BB turbo requires an oil restrictor and therefore there is very little oil in the cartridge. Its function is only to lubricate not to cool. If oil gets too hot it starts to break down and can coke up the bearings. The water jacket around the CHRA is what keeps the oil cool and while it may not be required, I believe Garrett designed it that way for a reason.
Just my 2 cents!
Just my 2 cents!
TDIMeister
Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
2-stage turbo with a GT1752VRK HP-stage,
My vote goes to 2 stage as well. I have twin gtb2260vk on my 4.2tdi and im not totally happy with it. Top end is really good, but i miss the massive torque down low. Full boost by 3000rpm in 4th gear. My shift points are at 4500rpm max with Aisin box so i cant use the power any higher. Going to remake the system to quad turbo soon.
This.
BritishBora
Active member
Wow guys lots of replies and loads of knowledge which is great - what do you mean by VKLR monster PD's, 350hp Turbos??
Would love to do stage 2 turbo system but unfortunately I cant fabricate and I cannot find a clear example of someone else setting this up successfully with everything you need so that I can get pass this onto someone to fabricate my manifold etc. then I can just set it all up myself.
Would love to know if you have any examples I could use?
At this current moment it seems my best bet is to use a ceramic ball bearing gtb2260vlkr with near stock internals and just do afew basic mods like porting, camshaft and some injectors which should support the 300bhp as I will already have the bolt on mods like intercooler, intake and exhaust.
Any last ideas for the current 2260VKLR build idea?
Plus I will keep everyone updated with pictures as the build goes on.
Would love to do stage 2 turbo system but unfortunately I cant fabricate and I cannot find a clear example of someone else setting this up successfully with everything you need so that I can get pass this onto someone to fabricate my manifold etc. then I can just set it all up myself.
Would love to know if you have any examples I could use?
At this current moment it seems my best bet is to use a ceramic ball bearing gtb2260vlkr with near stock internals and just do afew basic mods like porting, camshaft and some injectors which should support the 300bhp as I will already have the bolt on mods like intercooler, intake and exhaust.
Any last ideas for the current 2260VKLR build idea?
Plus I will keep everyone updated with pictures as the build goes on.
Festa
Veteran Member
Adam Davison of Pioneering performance does a vklr cast exhaust manifold so you can fit the gtb2260vklr directly to your pd engine. Saves cutting and welding on to your existing manifold. He also uses Narco for tuning I believe.
adamss24
Veteran Member
While the pioneering performance cast manifold looks good it’s a bit expensive, I prefer cheaper solutions: dark side adapter plate on AFN/AWX manifold, works a treat and spools well enough for 300 Bhp ! Granted that cast manifold from PP is an elegant, long lasting solution however it’s a bit pointless in a market saturated with tubular manifolds or cut and shut turbos of all flavors !
adamss24
Veteran Member
I don’t know why you keep pushing personal preference as gtb2260vk well setup on a flow bench will spool from 1800 rpms and support well over 300 Bhp ! I drove all sorts of turbos, if a gtb2260vk didn’t float your boat then it either wasn’t set up properly or the tune was really, really bad ! I -for once- prefer full boost from 2000 rpms on, it gives me enough time to get all cogs meshed into my gearbox and saves clutch/driveshafts and engine from torque shunts as the hardware reacts a bit faster than I can ! I drive my golf mk2 pd tdi toy at 1.85 bar of boost and it’s scary fast, the driveline has issues putting power on the ground with sticky toyo r888r…
Lol this thread reminds me of a long standing joke about sentras chirping third 
...
Save your money if you're not will to spend the additional funds on laying down all that power.
I would start researching proper clutch flywheel packages, lsd, and suspension tuning if you're staying fwd.
...Save your money if you're not will to spend the additional funds on laying down all that power.
I would start researching proper clutch flywheel packages, lsd, and suspension tuning if you're staying fwd.
Show me a dyno plot with GTB2260 with full boost at 2000rpm.
Talking about personal preference, have you counted how many times you have mentioned the 2260 thelast few weeks on this forum? And your golf, and that your head lifts…
Do you have 1.85bar at 2000rpm with 6th gear?
I have gtb2260vk with electric actuator, i can command it to do whatever i want, but full boost of 2.5bar does not happen before 3000..3200rpm. I have 1.8bar somewhere in 2600rpm. Closing vanes more = big emp and not much gain in spool.
Original gtb1749vk came on 500-700rpm earlier.
What kind of SOI you use for spool?
Im testing my car at 4th gear and rather loose torque converter. With 6th gear it might do 1.5bar at 2000rpm, but i cant use it much...more like downshift and go...
adamss24
Veteran Member
The op has already a gtb2260vk turbo, all it needs some decent mapping and probably a better clutch ! So let’s let him make do with the hardware he’s already got !Show me a dyno plot with GTB2260 with full boost at 2000rpm.
Talking about personal preference, have you counted how many times you have mentioned the 2260 thelast few weeks on this forum? And your golf, and that your head lifts…
as I have read it he doesn’t have a turbo yet. Do you have a full boost by 2000rpm log to show? No wonder your head is lifting because EMP will be sky high…
adamss24
Veteran Member
No logs but I will take a log tomorrow on the way back home ! Car is at the garage as I have to entertain the family with shopping and dropping the kid to kindergarten…I can indulge only week days to drive the mk2- it’s hard ride !
I don’t know how high emp Is as I don’t have emp gauge but I see 800C egt max on hard pulls ! The car was fastest diesel in its class in 2017-2018 in Romania, was demo car of Motion tuning- a well regarded outfit over here !
I don’t know how high emp Is as I don’t have emp gauge but I see 800C egt max on hard pulls ! The car was fastest diesel in its class in 2017-2018 in Romania, was demo car of Motion tuning- a well regarded outfit over here !
DannyS
Veteran Member
Doesn't retarding the injection timing a bit help spool? You'd send more power into the exhaust that way.
adamss24
Veteran Member
You get crazy pcp as well…not recommended unles engine longevity is not a priority !
BritishBora
Active member
I do not yet have the turbo no, I was about to purchase and thought I would check here first but glad I did!
Still open to ideas of best performance, simplicity and reliability for the turbo set up and 300hp is the goal for my own mad scientist achievements and also maybe a little bit so I can whoop some of these new petrol boys buying 20k cars in my 20 year old diesel (Most of which between 270-300hp)
For the turbo I don't need full boost necessarily at the 1800/2000rpm just as long as there is some as my concerns for this started when a boost hose blew and I had no boost for a short drive and the car was just gutless and don't want to have this kind of feeling on a 300hp build, it sounds like it will still make some boost though so spooling in those low revs which wont feel like I'm moving a million miles an hour but will still let me pull out a junction quicker then like 5 seconds to get to 5mph.
The turbos I am looking at do appear to come with the adapted manifold already but thank you for the suggestion of manifolds.
I have got a brand new clutch and Dual mass flywheel right now but that is purely just to get me through till I have finished adding the power to the build at which point I am looking at some stage 2 clutches or possibly Sachs as I want it to be fresh for the car once finished.
Handling mods are already nearly finished with lower/harder coilovers and only a 35mm drop as don't wanna go too low, Polybush all round, extended droplinks for ARB, rear brace bar and looking at getting a front strut brace too although I know these don't do much for a FWD platform
I have heard of adjusting degrees of injection to squeeze in enough fuel to help boost but not going that route as yes I am planning for engine longevity and reliability as well as high power (I expect to have a few parts need replacing or that blow that is normal wit this kind of build, I will be using reinforced Hrods, pistons and other things along to avoid any catastrophe that sends a piston to Mars on the first drive!)
Still open to ideas of best performance, simplicity and reliability for the turbo set up and 300hp is the goal for my own mad scientist achievements and also maybe a little bit so I can whoop some of these new petrol boys buying 20k cars in my 20 year old diesel
(Most of which between 270-300hp)For the turbo I don't need full boost necessarily at the 1800/2000rpm just as long as there is some as my concerns for this started when a boost hose blew and I had no boost for a short drive and the car was just gutless and don't want to have this kind of feeling on a 300hp build, it sounds like it will still make some boost though so spooling in those low revs which wont feel like I'm moving a million miles an hour but will still let me pull out a junction quicker then like 5 seconds to get to 5mph.
The turbos I am looking at do appear to come with the adapted manifold already but thank you for the suggestion of manifolds.
I have got a brand new clutch and Dual mass flywheel right now but that is purely just to get me through till I have finished adding the power to the build at which point I am looking at some stage 2 clutches or possibly Sachs as I want it to be fresh for the car once finished.
Handling mods are already nearly finished with lower/harder coilovers and only a 35mm drop as don't wanna go too low, Polybush all round, extended droplinks for ARB, rear brace bar and looking at getting a front strut brace too although I know these don't do much for a FWD platform
I have heard of adjusting degrees of injection to squeeze in enough fuel to help boost but not going that route as yes I am planning for engine longevity and reliability as well as high power (I expect to have a few parts need replacing or that blow that is normal wit this kind of build, I will be using reinforced Hrods, pistons and other things along to avoid any catastrophe that sends a piston to Mars on the first drive!)
adamss24
Veteran Member
H rods/aftermarket rods are not required at your power target, they are good insurance but not necessary. Polybushing the entire car defeats the goal- cars drive better on polyurethane factory updated bushes from much more powerful models(s3/r32/etc) but that’s just my personal opinion! Also cheap coilovers are wasted on a car unless some expensive Kw or bilstein…a matched set of springs and shocks will handle a lot better !
As for advancing the fueling it works up to a point, you get long duration which means heat and excessive pressure in the pistons- best to get larger nozzles. Stock al pd150 nozzles fuel enough for 250bhp…as for spool, you want max torque at 1700-2000 rpms as it will move the car quick but- moving the torque plot to the right of the graph- will be a lot easier on the driveline ! Basically you start driving the diesel as it will be a petrol car and drop a cog or two when you need to make quick progress !
As for advancing the fueling it works up to a point, you get long duration which means heat and excessive pressure in the pistons- best to get larger nozzles. Stock al pd150 nozzles fuel enough for 250bhp…as for spool, you want max torque at 1700-2000 rpms as it will move the car quick but- moving the torque plot to the right of the graph- will be a lot easier on the driveline ! Basically you start driving the diesel as it will be a petrol car and drop a cog or two when you need to make quick progress !
That is only possible with a untuned VNT15, even when these are tuned for more boost torque peak / max boost happens later:
Maybe a GTD1752VRK could do the same, but nothing bigger will spool to deliver torque peak that early.
BritishBora
Active member
Okay so I wouldn't actually need to do all the internals if I don tthrash the car and be sensible keeping the power nearer the 250hp mark seen as it will be a daily I can then use a smaller turbo then the 22 so that it has quicker spool up such as a GTD1752VRK or maybe even a like an 18 hybrid that i see alot of so that it reaches max power of around 250hp but also has the benefit of faster max boost. That way could I also keep my PD130 injectors as they're the same as the PD150 I believe so should be good for the 250 mark yes? Or should I get bigger injectors to avoid too much pressure and heat at the 250hp mark.
So that way I can keep the PD130 engine stock other than a ported head, Racing cam, PD150 ARP head bolts, Turbo, Intercooler and stage 2 clutch, anything else?
Also that sucks as i thought Polybush where better as firmer so I have just put them everywhere as wanted a firmer ride maybe now a little too firm as there is the issue of driving along and hitting a bump then the wheel just comes clean off the floor I suppose.
I would love to hit 300hp but thats why i posted here before starting the rest of the build as you guys have all got more experience in these higher numbers soo it seems the majority vote is to go with lower Hp around 250 to still have the fast spool for a nice daily yet be quick enough if tuned properly and built correctly
TDIMeister
Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
If transient response is important to you, you want a 2060VLKR, not 2260. In fact, I would reduce the compressor size to a GTB2056VKLR,
Edit: forget the 18 and any derivatives from it. It's based on ancient 1st gen VNT technology. Go GTB (with ball bearings) or better.
GTB2056VKLR | 816841-0002 | A6420901886 |
Edit: forget the 18 and any derivatives from it. It's based on ancient 1st gen VNT technology. Go GTB (with ball bearings) or better.
Last edited:
Andyinchville1
Veteran Member
Hi
I know ball bearings help with spool up but how about how many miles can one realistically expect to get out of a turbo with ball bearing versus one with Journal bearing?
Would they or could they be realistically expected to last at least two or three hundred thousand miles?
I know ball bearings help with spool up but how about how many miles can one realistically expect to get out of a turbo with ball bearing versus one with Journal bearing?
Would they or could they be realistically expected to last at least two or three hundred thousand miles?
adamss24
Veteran Member
If your injectors are ending in AL then you have same injectors as a pd150- they do 250 Bhp with long duration. Bottom end is stout although I rebuilt a few engines this year with bent rods due to rubbish set hybrid gtb1749va/vb turbochargers. As above, if absolute best transient response is desired then a ball bearing turbo will be better suited however- I believe it’s wasted -as carefully mapping these so they don’t boost creep at high revs is mandatory ! Also depends who converts it to vacuum as no install is the same. If keeping the smart actuator then also careful mapping is required to keep PID from overreacting. Personally I prefer bigger turbos as my driving style is 70% motorway and turbo is on song anyway at 1800-2000 rpms. You will find tiring swapping trough the gears of car is geared short…
I have a couple of ball bearings turbos to try this summer but I have to sort out a better air filtering system as my brand new gtb2260vk has eroded compressor tips due to poor filtration from the Ramair cone filter I am using ! No point slapping another turbo to have the same fate…
I have a couple of ball bearings turbos to try this summer but I have to sort out a better air filtering system as my brand new gtb2260vk has eroded compressor tips due to poor filtration from the Ramair cone filter I am using ! No point slapping another turbo to have the same fate…
adamss24
Veteran Member
My experience with another forum member b7 with gtb2060vklr and later with gtb1260vklr was a bitter sweet one: the chra would spin due to increased EGT and thus bolts would come loose, break and chra would shear locating pins thus allowing the turbine wheel to hit the vanes. The turbo was rebuilt twice then another one was sourced ! Also welded manifold used to crack then he bought dark side jobbie and even that cracked- they fixed it under warranty though ! We ended making a cantilever mount with rose joints to take weight of the turbo. Later on my mate drilled the chra to take larger bolts and even drilled the bolt heads to thread wire to stop them coming undone ! I never have any of these issues with journal bearing gtb2260vk…if you want to read Vlads saga then search b5conversion posts !
As I said I didn’t open a gtb1752 vrk turbo to see its construction but people rave about them so they must be good…
As I said I didn’t open a gtb1752 vrk turbo to see its construction but people rave about them so they must be good…
BritishBora
Active member
Okay so do you know what was causing all those issues? Was he running crazy high power through the turbo that was putting too much pressure on the manifold as I doubt i am experienced enough to be dealing with those sort of issues coming up after a build being finished on the turbo
Is there anything i could do to reduce this problem? if it was purely EGTs that where somehow over heating things then would reducing EGT help stop this problem ever occurring? Could heat wrap everything around it and the heat blanket the turbo as he was using the same turbo i now plan on using (GTB2060VKLR)
Is there anything i could do to reduce this problem? if it was purely EGTs that where somehow over heating things then would reducing EGT help stop this problem ever occurring? Could heat wrap everything around it and the heat blanket the turbo as he was using the same turbo i now plan on using (GTB2060VKLR)