B99 bad mileage

tommygunn82189

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Location
Pawtucket, RI
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03 Jetta
when i fill up my 03 jetta, i take my time, let the foam settle, and i fill it to the brim. usually on a petroleum diesel tank i get 600+ miles out of it, and around 42 mpg. i tried b50 last week and got just over 500 miles out of a tank. now i filled with b99 this week, and i'm at a half tank with only 272 miles traveled. you guys know that in a mk4 the first half of a tank on the gauge is almost like 5/8 or 3/4, it's a big half. i usualy get 375 at the half mark on petroleum diesel.

why the poor mileage?
 

Joe_Meehan

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First, how about giving us MPG or KPL. Measuring in miles per tank is not very accurate in most cars. The fuel gauge is also an inaccurate measure. Also try for at least three contiguous fill ups. Having said that, I would expect lower mileage with B99.
 

3516ACERT

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Maryland
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Let's see if we can get some better information:

How many gallons of B99 did you put in, that would indicate how many gallons you used going that 500 miles on B50, right?

Obviously something is wrong... I don't hit the halfway mark until at LEAST 300 miles, but as Joe said above, the fuel gage is at best a "general" indicator of fuel use.

Bio has fewer btu's than petroleum, but not so much as to drop your economy from 600 miles per tank to less than 500 miles, that's a 16% drop on B50... I'd be very concerned.

Is your source of bio reliable? Any performance issues? Did you buy B99 both times and put half a tank of B99 to get B50 last week?
 

SilverGhost

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I'm going to make the obvious point. When you start using bio after using petro diesel there is going to be an adjustment period.

The bio is a solvent and tends to clean the fuel system. Any crud that was in the tank and fuel lines gets loosened and ends up collecting in the fuel filter. In more extreme cases it is common for a diesel to starve for fuel and stall after the switch from petro to bio diesel. It necessary to change the fuel filter, sometimes several times, after the switch.

It is also possible to have a fuel leak develop at the injection pump on the older style engine (ALH). Same thing happened when the refiners lowered the sulphur content (though it is not the sulphur but a resulting content of diesel that changed) - fuel pump seals failed.

You need to monitor over several tanks to get an acurate reading on how your mileage changed. There may be other factors at work besides the change to bio. Just keep up on possible fuel leaks and carry a spare fuel filter or two.

Jason

PS, I get about 500 top 575 miles on the first half, and its a PD
 

tommygunn82189

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Pawtucket, RI
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03 Jetta
when i did the b50, i got 39 mpg. i did the math when i added x amount of gallons of b99 to fill up. i get 42mpg pretty regularly on petrol diesel. also when i got the b50 i got it from the station pre mixed to b50.

havent calculated what i have gotten for mileage yet on the b99.

i have a spare fuel filter in the shed just in case it begins to hesitate, but so far it runs perfect, no change in performance.
 

Scott_DeWitt

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You can generally expect about a 10% drop in fuel economy with Bio, due to more chemical energy that Petro diesel has over bio.

Also your engine could be starving for fuel if the filter is clogged but that would manifest itself with poor performance.
 

brucebanes

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Maryland
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I noticed 5 miles less per gallon on B100 I also noticed when climbing through the mountains my top speed was 85 mph and with regular diesel is was 95.

With a B50 mix it wasnt really noticeable maybe 2-3 mpg less but that could also have been the placebo factor.

It kinda of makes sense that a fuel from hydrocarbons provides better fuel economy then one created from used vegetable oil.
 

3516ACERT

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http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/faqs/
Of the major exhaust pollutants, both unburned hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides are ozone or smog forming precursors. The use of biodiesel results in a substantial reduction of unburned hydrocarbons. Emissions of nitrogen oxides are either slightly reduced or slightly increased depending on the duty cycle of the engine and testing methods used. Based on engine testing, using the most stringent emissions testing protocols
required by EPA for certification of fuels or fuel additives in the US, the overall ozone forming potential of the speciated hydrocarbon emissions from biodiesel was nearly 50 percent less than that measured for diesel fuel.
A 1998 biodiesel lifecycle study, jointly sponsored by the US Department of Energy and the US Department of Agriculture, concluded biodiesel reduces net CO² emissions by 78 percent compared to petroleum diesel. This is due to biodiesel’s closed carbon cycle. The CO² released into the atmosphere when biodiesel is burned is recycled by growing plants, which are later processed into fuel..Is biodiesel safer than petroleum diesel? Scientific research confirms that biodiesel exhaust has a less harmful impact on human health than petroleum diesel fuel. Biodiesel emissions have decreased levels of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) and nitrited PAH compounds that have been identified as potential cancer causing compounds. Test results indicate PAH compounds were reduced by 75 to 85 percent, with the exception of benzo(a)anthracene, which was reduced by roughly 50 percent. Targeted nPAH compounds were also reduced dramatically with biodiesel fuel, with 2-nitrofluorene and 1-nitropyrene reduced by 90 percent, and the rest of the nPAH compounds reduced to only trace levels.
Made in the U.S.A. I LOVE IT
 

tikal

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To be fair my understanding is that the latest studies (later than 1998) show that on the average the likelihood of nitrogen oxides exhaust increase is higher by using biodiesel.

If somebody has some links to demonstrate, refute or clarify the above that would be great.
 

kwgilpin

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2003 Jetta GLS
Tommy,

If you want another data point, I run B100 during the summer in my '03 without seeing much of a MPG decrease. After my last fill-up, I saw 51mpg. This was mainly interstate driving on I95 at ~70mph down to Annapolis and back.
 

3516ACERT

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Still better to use Bio rather than dino

To be fair my understanding is that the latest studies (later than 1998) show that on the average the likelihood of nitrogen oxides exhaust increase is higher by using biodiesel.

If somebody has some links to demonstrate, refute or clarify the above that would be great.
http://www.guascorpower.com/eng/docs/motores_biodisele.pdf
First Page, bullet #2:
2. Another pollutant is nitrogen. However, it should be recognised that the level of
nitrous oxide in the exhaust gases is slightly higher when using biodiesel than in
diesel oil. Nitrous oxides also give rise to acid rain (generating nitric acid). In
general, however, biodiesel causes less contamination when the effects of SOx
and NOx of 100% pure biodiesel (B100) with 100% pure diesel oil are
compared.
 

BeetleGo

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You haven't said whether this is a 5 speed or auto.
You haven't said if this is ASTM certified biodiesel.
You haven't gone through 3 tanks yet.

How are we supposed to help you without simply guessing?

P.S. Your mileage will go down a bit using B99, but not necessarily 10%.
 
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Jethro

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Los Alamos, NM
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2003 Jetta 1.9
I have had great experiences since I switched to B20. If I could buy B50 / B99 I would, but there is NO market for it here in New Mexico (apparently).

I have put through about 6-7 tanks now, I have every reason to believe I'm on 'pure' B20 (ASTM certified "REG" fuel). When I hit 155k Miles I'm going to replace my FF along with my OF. It will be interesting to see how nasty it is inside.
 

Mako

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Dino and Bio require different starts of injection to extract full value from the fuel. Bio needs a few degrees SOI advance to extract all of the energy in the fuel as it 'burns slower'. A normal TDI on bio is running retarded SOI. That's one of the reasons TDI's are quieter when on bio without other changes.
I have read that B20 used in an optimized diesel motor can exhibit better fuel mileage than straight Dino for reasons explained by chemistry despite there being less energy per kg in bio.
 

3516ACERT

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If you don't know...

its a 5 speed, idk if it is certified, and i am not paying for 3 whole tanks of garbage.
I assume idk = I don't know, right?

So, if you "don't know" if the fuel you put in your car is ASTM D6751-11A then I would strongly urge you not to put it in your car. I agree with you; you should not be putting biodiesel in your car, stick with "gas" stations.

Please understand, just because you "don't know" what you bought doesn't mean bio-diesel is "garbage". Perhaps you bought some garbage biodiesel.

I hope you figure it out.
 

UFO

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A mile high
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Dino and Bio require different starts of injection to extract full value from the fuel. Bio needs a few degrees SOI advance to extract all of the energy in the fuel as it 'burns slower'. A normal TDI on bio is running retarded SOI. That's one of the reasons TDI's are quieter when on bio without other changes.
I have read that B20 used in an optimized diesel motor can exhibit better fuel mileage than straight Dino for reasons explained by chemistry despite there being less energy per kg in bio.
Higher cetane fuel burns FASTER. Maybe you are thinking of vegetable oil.

Vegetable oil <> biodiesel ---> not the same, different!
 

sqdude

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Location
Eugene, Oregon
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2000 Jetta TDI
For what it's worth, I have 57,417 miles on an average of B66, with an average mpg of 42.2. I drive aggressive short trips in town, only about 40% highway miles. Lately I've had bike racks on the roof which kill the mileage dramatically.

I've done 2 long road trips on b99, both about 2,000 miles. Both times I average about 50mpg which seems normal for a stock car driven above the speed limit on bio.

It's all in a spreadsheet, I'm a nerd... :D
 

BioNerd

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I use B100 and record 43-45mpg, manual tranny though... =)
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Are you buying bio from Malloys in Cumberland? I buy their fuel, run B20 most of the year, and have had great luck with their fuel. I'm getting 44-48 MPG in mixed driving. I don't find there's an adjustment period with bio, but the last time I filled up there I did notice it foamed a lot. It took a while to get a complete fill.
 
Joined
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Location
Michigan
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My mileage is better on bio, I believe b/c of the greater lubricity. 50-54 on dino, 52-57 on bio.

'02 Jetta w/ manual tranny, driving speed limit +5 mph.
 

ikendu

Veteran Member
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Mar 1, 2003
Location
Iowa
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2003 Golf Indigo Blue
i hate biodiesel. ...going back to crude oil
I'm not sure why you switched in the first place. If you want your mileage to go up, then limit your use to B2. It might go up from increased lubricity. There was one study done in Canada that showed that.

I've been using B100 for over 8 years in a '03 Golf TDI (at 155,000 miles now).

I've come to understand that chemically, it is the petroleum that is "garbage". Petroleum diesel is a highly variable, chemical cocktail of very dirty components. Surely you've noticed the smell and the dirt associated with filling your tank with diesel? I've you've done three tanks of biodiesel, you've noticed the difference?

Mileage? I often get 49 mpg on petroleum and generally get 44 mpg on B100. That is about 10% less mpg.

So... why did I keep using this for 8 years? It hasn't been easy. There's no B100 filling station down at the corner.

With B100, no or hugely reduced likihood of:
...spills like we had in the Gulf of Mexico
...support for dictators that fire on their own citizens; so we can keep our naval base in the Persian Gulf
...terrorism because we support repressive regimes
...10-year wars in the Middle East (deaths, wounded, PTSD; our people and their people)
...extreme weather events (it used to be a 1-2" rain was amazing, last week, we had a 4.5" rain and no one batted an eye)
...huge destruction from flooding; west coast, mid-west, east coast, down south; all over
...HUGE ecological destruction like the mining of Tar Sands in Canada
...sending billions of dollars overseas, just to see some of it fund terror
...leaving other countries stuck with the pollution from oil, so we can drive to the mall

My tankfuls in those 8+ years aren't enough to truly make a difference in these events. I hoped, through personal demonstration, to show it was possible to break our over dependence on foreign oil. Sadly, from my writing and personal appearances over about 5 years, it seems to have had very little effect. Still, at least I was able to hugely reduce my own personal connection to the events from the list.

If your thought was to save money or increase mileage with B100... I'm sorry, that generally just doesn't happen. It has always cost me more.

If you want to consider costs, think about what petroleum has cost us for spills, wars and flooding. It is a big number.

I can understand how you can "hate" an inanimate object like fuel. It is basically how I feel about imported petroleum.
 
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BeetleGo

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
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Ikendu,

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Thank you
 

ikendu

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Location
Iowa
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2003 Golf Indigo Blue
If you want to consider costs, think about what petroleum has cost us for spills, wars and flooding. It is a big number...
I've been thinking about this a little more...

Our oil executives testified in front of Congress recently that we had to keep up their tax breaks and incentives because "Americans don't want to pay more at the pump".

Well, that's true. When Americans drive up to the filling station pump, all they can see are those little numbers on the pump in the per gallon price.

Those costs for spills, wars and flooding still come right of your wallet though ...and later the wallets of your children and probably even your grandchildren too. They are just as real, just not quite as apparent.

Even though we never raised taxes to pay for our (now 3) wars or disaster relief (floods, etc.), we will end up paying, one way or another. The costs for our military will continue long, long after the last soldier leaves the Middle East (whenever that might be).

So... costs, yes. Some easy to see, some not so easy to see.
 

BioNerd

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Ikendu, very well articulated. I second all you have said. As you said it is not easy, I make very little money but as I have to drive I buy bio and as I have to eat I only buy organic, bulk to fight back the plastic. There is a lot of things we cant help because we are subject to the options that society gives us. But we must do as much as we can to live in peace with all other beings. As humans we are smart enough to be the protectors of this paradise instead the destructors of it.
After the Golf of Mexico oil spill, I was so terribly sad and ashamed for been a human that I decided that either I suicide or I change everything I could in order to do less harm.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one"-Lennon

Cheers!
 

ikendu

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Location
Iowa
TDI
2003 Golf Indigo Blue
Costs...

This morning I heard a new term on the morning weather "aerial flooding".

They defined this as not flooding from streams or rivers ("flash flooding"), but flooding from where the amount of water across an entire county is simply so much that flooding is everywhere.

This was from a 6" rain that is going on this morning. It is estimated to be 7" by the time the rain ends.

This is rain from a single event, overnight.

That same area is predicted to get another 3" tonight.
 
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