2000 beetle engine issue!!!

[ChugBug]

Yesterday morning, my boyfriend was on his way to work with my 2000 beetle TDI when he heard a "pop" and the engine cut out. When he attempted to restart it, it didnt' turn over normally and rattled and clattered and shook the dash and everything so he stopped.
We've had it towed to the shop that replaced the timing belt, tensioner, fuel pump, and water pump last month.
Called this morning and they cannot find anythign wrong as of yet. Timing belt intact, all timing marks are spot on. no broken belts to be found. they havent' attempted to start it yet. this afternoon they are going to take off the timing belt, check the timing marks AGAIN, and keep looking. They think it is something internal.
background on car: automatic, has larger than normal fuel injectors, has been running just fine since i've had it. Like i said, new timing belt, tensioner, fuel pump, water pump, and oil change last month. only 3000 miles added to car sicne that work was performed.
any ideas????? i'm flat broke and i'm afraid that if it's a shot engine, the car may not be worth putting a new engine in (only worth about $6k). I LOVE this car and have gone all over with it, now I'm stressing over what could be wrong.

 

[tditom]

Maybe the injection pump died.

Have they pulled off the valve cover to look at the valve train? It'd be good to check if there was anything visibly amiss there before attempting to start it. I assume they'll turn it by hand a few times before starting it, too. This would reveal any interference between the valves and pistons.

Keep us posted! Good luck.

 

[ChugBug]

they did say that the valves look fine and that they can't see any visible damage to it, they did take off the valve cover.

woudl the injection pump dying cause mass damage or is this a relatively easy fix?? (fingers crossed)

 

[tditom]

easy to fix, but somewhat expensive. $1K for parts?

 

[ChugBug]

eek

eek, well, still better than new or rebuilt engine. i'll keep my fingers crossed.

 

[dabear95]

We've had it towed to the shop that replaced the timing belt, tensioner, fuel pump, and water pump last month.
Called this morning and they cannot find anythign wrong as of yet.

This is just freakin amazing that people get screwed by repair facilities every darn day. I'm sure they will find it was a problem with the work they did.

Perhaps the motor mount broke and the banging was caused by the engine flopping around. Or the tensioner was installed correctly, but the cam was not aligned. There are no timing marks!! Unless they made some marks and used the "mark and pray" method of changing the timing belt. The crank is set at TDC, the cam is set at TDC and locked, then the injection pump is locked in the injection window for starting...

Or or or...



Jason

 

[DeafBug]

The pop sound and car won't start is sure sign of the injection pump died.

I have been there about 2 years ago. Happened on the highway. New pump and I was back on the road again.

Get a used pump. Unless you have down time to get it rebuild by Bosch in Portland, OR. Make sure it is an 11mm pump. Installing it is easy. It requires a semi breakdown of the normal timing belt job to replace the pump. Once the pump is installed, do the second half of the timing belt job. Make sure they prime the pump with a hand-held vacuum pump. And prime the metal injector lines before starting the car.

 

[tditom]

Chugbug- how many miles on the car?

Deafbug- if it is the injection pump, could the TB job have been done wrong (tensioner too tight?) and this leads to the IP failure?

 

[ChugBug]

Chugbug- how many miles on the car?

Deafbug- if it is the injection pump, could the TB job have been done wrong (tensioner too tight?) and this leads to the IP failure?

TDITom, the car has 108k miles on it. had maintenance done on it at 105K (including the belt, etc). this is the car's second belt (first one at 40K, replaced with an 80K belt, then at a maint at 105k, the belt was noticed to be cracked and tensioner loose and water pump bad, so timing belt was done again 15k early.)

I called the shop and told them to check the injection pump when they get back to my car this afternoon. Thanks all, will keep everyone updated once they find the problem.

 

[DeafBug]

tditom,
pump is independent from the rest of the car. Set the pump wrong during a TB job, you will have starting issues. But they have been driving for quite some time, I don't think the TB job causes it. The only thing is that the pump bolts suddenly got loose (all 3) and the pump pulley slided to the end of their enlonged slots. That is unlikely unless it was hanging on by one bolt and the bolt gave up. In that case, they would just need to reset the pump and do the last part of the timing belt job, one hour.

 

[wny_pat]

3000 miles after timing belt change? Motor mount bolts?

 

[ChugBug]

UPDATE:

They were able to start the car, but it is not idling correctly. they said injection pump looks ok, they still think it may be a piston ring or soemthing like that. they asked me to check back tomorrow afternoon for an update as they are still diagnosing.

woudl it even start if the injection pump was bad? he asked me if we put gas in it instead of diesel, which pissed me off. i told him we were experienced diesel owners and didnt' do such a silly thing and he jsut laughed.

 

[frugality]

Just in the interest of ruling things out, when was your last fuel filter replacement?

 

[ChugBug]

fuel filter was replaced last month whent eh timing belt was done, at 105k miles. first tiem i'd changed it (bad me)

 

[jasonTDI]

Bad pump.

I've read it all here and there is no way the rings just blow out. Did they check the turbo?

 

[tditom]

Deafbug-

I'm not sure what you mean by the IP being independent from the rest of the car?

I was wondering if the tension on the TB was set too tight, could it put a stress on the IP shaft and wear out the pump quickly. This is a possiblility, no?

 

[jasonTDI]

No. you could not set the tension that high. You would kill the waterpump and the rollers first. Plus the tensioner would howl like mad if you had it that tight. Seen it.

 

[DeafBug]

tditom,
What I mean is that the pump is independent from the rest of the car. The pump has nothing to do with the engine trashing. If the pump is not set correctly during a timing belt. But the camshaft locked down and TDC is correct. All you will get is starting issues. If you managed to get it started, it won't run right. Engine will probably shake. And everything what jason said for the tensioner and such. The only time the pump will trash the engine is if the pump totally siezed and the belt start jumping over the teeth. But with luck, you can save the engine if turned off right away.

My money is on the pump. But the real question is the pistons in the pump or the rotary shaft shot or just a bad part on the pump. It will take more diagnosing to find out why the pump is acting up.

I have seen people buy a dead pump and start swapping parts until they hit the spot. I have a dead pump in my garage minus a few good parts that I have traded with others. The only part I would buy new is the fuel sensor.

 

[ChugBug]

UPDATE:

Got a call from the shop. they suspect the turbo. they said it was completely seized. they were able to loosen it and had the car running, but said that if you rev the engine, it creates so much pressure that it blows a hose off (repeatedly).

They let me knwo they are in over their heads adn they don't know how to install a new turbo on a vw tdi (used to mercedes/bmw).

So, any recs on a place I can take in in teh San Francisco Bay area to get a new turbo put on and to finish a diagnostic to see if there are any other problems caused by this issue? The car is now in San Bruno, so somewhere within decent towing distance of there preferred.

Also, can I find a good new or rebuilt turbo for less than $1k? I'll start checking parts sites tonight. Thanks!!!

(my poor car, this is getting too costly )

 

[tditom]

Can someone explain how the turbo can stop the engine cold (unless it grenades and sticks a valve open)? Who is the Bay area guru?

Chugbug-
Since they only "suspect" the turbo, you should have the car looked at by a tdi specialist. If it was "completely seized" I don't think they would be able to free it up and get it going again (the turbo). At least they were honest about being in over their heads.

Don't order a turbo tonight. Let someone knowledgable troublshoot this for you before ordering parts. IF you do need a turbo, I saw them on special at impex.com for $700, including the exhaust manifold.

 

[ChugBug]

i will wait on the ordering until I can get a specialist to look at it. these guys know mercedes diesel, but can't really do much on a vw diesel outside of basic care. normally i would have gone to new dimensions for everything but they shut down. they did my timing belt at 40k miles with no troubles.

Please pelase please email me at jodennis (at) gmail.com if you know of a tdi specialist who get the car towed to their shop and look at it and give me a definitive answer before i go spending money i don't have on parts i don't need.

Thanks all !!!!!

 

[DeafBug]

Now that is interesting. Why would the hose blow off? That's why the clamps are there. What did they loosen? We need need to know that. Good to know that it ain't the pump but still. If you take the hose off, the car should start up without any trouble. Were they able to do that?

Ask your boyfriend was there any smoke? What was the altitude that the Bug died? Did it go thru a mountain or something?

 

[ChugBug]

I'm not sure what they loosened, i'm assuming the fan. perhaps a pressure relief valve failure? they were able to start the car, hose blew off at acceleration. They seem pretty clueless at this point, or they no longer want the task since they think it has nothign to do with their previous work.

I'll need a better person to go check it out.

We live pretty close to sea level in Oakland, and boyfriend did not notice any smoke, just a "hmmmPOP" that happened quickly and the car went dead. We had been noticing some lag in shifting and he suspected a tranny problem a month ago but it came up ok. The car hasn't done anything strenuous lately. Camping season is about to start, and the car tows a 1100 pound trailer around in the summer on occassion, but not every weekend or every day.

this is a complete mystery to us as the car exhibitited no problems and went 3000 miles after the last maint. without any trouble. in fact, the fuel economy was improving because of the new fuel filter.

sorry i can't be of any more help in this. i really need an expert to look at the car who knows what to look for and how to talk to me about the trouble.

thanks!

 

[tditom]

ChugBug-
I just saw this thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=98686
It might help- good luck

 

[ChugBug]

thanks tditom, that did help. i will call Advanced VW in SF on Monday (since it is closest to where the car is now).

As for an update, the sop informed me they found a vacuum valve completely open and wouldnt' close when car was running. they think it maybe as simple as replacing that but i'm not so sure. i told them to go ahead and replace that valve and let me know, and that i will have the car towed to another shop that knows more about tdis on monday.

hopefully this saga will be over soon.

 

[ChugBug]

Update: Fixed

Update:

The shop called me today to let me know my car is ready to come home and running as good as new. It was the waste gate valve, it was stuck open and wasn't allowing the engine to hold any kind of a vacuum.

I will pick up the car tomorrow, grateful that it wasnt' anything worse

 

[frugality]

That's very interesting...considering your Bug DOESN'T HAVE a wastegate...

Prolly referring to the VNT.

 

[jasonTDI]

Please stay away from them in the future.....yikes.

 

[DeafBug]

Glad that your Bug is buggin' now.

However, try to find someone local and try to use this board first before going to the dealer or any mechanic.

Sorry that I thought it was the pump. It was based on what you posted. See how one thing can lead to something else. Can you imagine what the dealer would do? Replace the pump. No problem still there, replace the turbo. Ahh, problem gone. You be $4,000 less in your pocket.

Since it was the VNT issue, when did you have an intake manifold cleaned? You might want to go to someone and have the turbo cleaned out. It is probably dirty inside. In the meantime, you can use white lithium grease. It is a spray can. Spray it on the VNT part of the turbo. It will help keep it from getting stuck in the future. Spray it on every oil change.

 

[ChugBug]

Thanks for the help DeafBug. Well, the way the engine was sounding,t he shop was convinced it was internal and had the camshaft out and everything checking. They were very nice and only charged me for the part and the labor to put things back together, so i saved a good $600 in labor or more because of that.

The car is running great now. I'm noticing less lag time than we noticed in the months before this issue. I've never had the intake manifold cleaned (bad bad ChugBug). I have a bently manual, so we'll start doing this when we change the oil. Is it easy to clean out the turbo or is this something I'll definitely have to let someone else do? I used to be very handy with cars, but I'm paranoid with this engine, hehehe. now when it comes to my 68 ford, we're under the hood fiddling all the time.