Vibration while at idle but not under load

Banksy

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2021
Location
Pennsylvania
TDI
None
I have a 2002 TDI wagon.

While idling there is a pretty serious vibration happening.

However while accelerating and driving in general the vibration goes away.

Any idea what could be causing this?
 

Metal Man

Vendor
Joined
Sep 29, 2001
Location
Sunbury,PA 17801
TDI
1998 NB TDI, 2006 Jetta TDI, 2014 Tiguan gas, , 2019 E Golf X2
Manual transmission? A common source of vibration is a failed flywheel. You can usually feel that at idle and in the clutch pedal on a high RPM shift. I have seen bad motor mounts, but I don't think that is a common problem.
 

Banksy

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2021
Location
Pennsylvania
TDI
None
Manual transmission? A common source of vibration is a failed flywheel. You can usually feel that at idle and in the clutch pedal on a high RPM shift. I have seen bad motor mounts, but I don't think that is a common problem.

Manual swapped
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
Check the Injection Quantity of the pump. Most likely it's set too low and therefore overfueling at idle causing it to stumble.

Have access to VCDS? You can adjust it to a point otherwise you have to perform something called the "hammer mod".
 

Banksy

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2021
Location
Pennsylvania
TDI
None
Check the Injection Quantity of the pump. Most likely it's set too low and therefore overfueling at idle causing it to stumble.

Have access to VCDS? You can adjust it to a point otherwise you have to perform something called the "hammer mod".

I do have VCDS! What would too low be?
 

JETaah

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jan 18, 2001
Location
mi 48836
TDI
96 B4V, 2005 BEW Beetle, 2005 Jetta Wagon
There should be a write-up in the "how to"s.
As to how much? it depends on the equipment.
You switched to a manual transmission. Any changes to the injectors? Do you still have the 11mm pump (if the engine is native to the automatic)?

In general, with a manual car with stock injectors and stock injection pump the IQ should hover around 3.5mg/str (all power consumers OFF, i.e. headlights, DRL, AC, etc...) fully warm engine at idle.
 

Banksy

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2021
Location
Pennsylvania
TDI
None
I believe it has after market injectors I was told that but I could not verify it.

It does have the 11mm pump on it though
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
We have done a lot of investigation on injectors and engine balancing. In this case, let's start with the most obvious. It could be low compression in a cylinder. Compression test the engine.

I'll not forget the fella that came into the shop one day, after we just got a performance engine built and it was purring along in the shop with the hood up. He looked at the oil dipstick boot, which was standing stock still. He pointed at the dipstick, turned to me and said,"I didn't know they could do that..."

The first thing to wonder is if the imbalance is new or if it's been doing this for some time. Just from a standpoint of rotating assemblies, VW really doesn't care about how well the TDI piston/ rod balance is. "It's only going to be running at about 2500rpm it's whole life." So, balancing is not really a big issue at the factory, unless you decide to make it one. Regularly, I have found the imbalance between reciprocating sets (1 & 2, 3 & 4) are often 8 grams out of balance. We balance to .1 gram. The crank is generally quite close. So, balancing is a matter of matching weights between pistons and rods, separately, then together. It does make a lot of difference for the 'feel' of the engine.

The flywheels are rarely balanced well. Maybe 10% are balanced 0.0grams. Not going to get into the depth of it, but we balance every single flywheel and resurface it 'correctly'. The humerous ones... We have balanced 3 flywheels that the drilling was done 180 degree out! We had to double-depth drill on the opposite side for correction. It would help if they were to check their work.

The injectors can have a great deal to do with what goes on at idle. Some will try to blame the injection pump, but rarely will you find that one injector will receive a different volume of fuel, as the pump wears very evenly.

But the injectors, there is a fine mess to deal with and that can very likely, be your issue. We examine injectors and dynamically balance them by using the VCDS, Engine module, block 13 and 15 to set the flow rate. You can check to see the variance between cylinders in block 13, Idle balance compensation and we also look at block 15, which the 3rd block shows liter per hour (LPH) fuel usage or FE (fuel economy).

If there is a large variation in fueling between the idle balance numbers, that will equate to an idle vibration. The whole purpose of the idle balance compensation is for the ECU to vary the fueling of each injector, so at idle, it runs smoothly. However, my contention is that the closer to 0.00mg/ str (milligrams per stroke) each cylinder shows for block 13, the more efficiently the engine will run. You want each cylinder receiving the same amount of fuel.

For example: If you have #3 cylinder showing 1.50 and #'s 1, 2, and 4 showing -.50-.75, then what is happening is #3 is demanding MORE fuel and 1, 2 and 4 are reducing fuel to compensate for an injector that is a problem. The engine's speed is measured through the crank sensor and if it runs too fast, the next injector's fueling is reduced to compensate. Too slow, fuel is added to speed up the crank.

The maximum block 13 deviation for an injector is 1.80 to -1.80. If you have a reading like that, you need to fix the injector(s) at fault. Or, on a rare occasion, the crank sensor wheel is bent. That is a whole story in itself... but maximum deviation can be disaster for you engine.



The other block I mention, 15, show the fuel consumption... FE this is a 'virtual sensor', as it does not actually figure the total fuel used, but uses different readings from the engine's modules to estimate fuel usage. So, it can vary, but will show a good baseline. Normally, a well-tuned set of injectors on a good engine should have an idle FE of .3-.5 lph.

Then, raising the idle speed to just under 1600 rpm (the idle balance compensation turns off at 1600 rpm), you can get a reading for the second stage of your injectors. Since this is where you operate your engine, this is the more important number for engine fueling and balance. If your injectors balance numbers remain skewed, you should take steps to remedy.

For example, if one injector show a highly negative number, as read with the engine running at 1596rpm, that mean fuel is being reduced. But once the engine is operated above 1600rpm, the idle balance is turned off. You get whatever the nozzle produces. Without compensation, the nozzle that was reading a highly negative number, now is overfueling. That can cause loss of fuel economy at least, and at worst can overheat the cylinder and melt pistons.

To set IQ, start with what you KNOW is too low of an IQ. 2.0. Do a road test on flat pavement with a minimum 45 mph speed limit, 3rd gear, 35 mph, accelerate to Wide Open Throttle (WOT). Remain if 3rd gear for the duration of this test. When your speedometer reads 40mph, using the stop watch feature most phones have, count 3 seconds. Check speedometer. Let's say it hit 55 mph. Now, raise your IQ 1 point with a hammer mod. Move the IQ lid toward the right side of the vehicle. Run road test again. Are you still reading an assumed 55mph? Raise IQ again. Continue road test until you lose performance in the 3 second count. Say it dropped to 53mph. Revert to the previous IQ reading that maintained 3 second count speed. That is how I optimize IQ settings.

"The least amount of fuel to maintain acceleration speed"

I covered a lot of ground. I hope you can pick out what is helpful. Questions? Email, PM, call...
 

HoneyBadger

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Location
San Jose, CA
TDI
'02 Jetta 5 spd, 03 jetta auto, future ALH Ranger
Wow, that was an awesome reply Franko6! Feels like that post should go in a how to or something.

So much information there to process and check out on my own motors
 

Banksy

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2021
Location
Pennsylvania
TDI
None
I didn't really have time to do a road test today.

I've had limited time on my days off and when I finally got around to this today I was only able to grab some IQ information at idle.

By the way sorry to digress a bit, but thanks for l the information. At idle at temp these are the IQ settings. They look low. Don't know if this could cause the issue at hand. Here is a link to what I found.


 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
The injectors look fine to me. Adjust the IQ from 2.2 to 3.2 or somewhere in the 3.x range and see what happens.
 

Banksy

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2021
Location
Pennsylvania
TDI
None
If it isnt injectors what else is there it could be?

I had this car on a list yesterday and was told no mounts looked weird.

I will say though the clutch I suspect to be bad. It's not wanting to go into first sometimes. I also know this does have a stock DMF on it. I also have some videos of the vibration too if that helps


 

jmodge

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
Just like Jokila said, 2.2 is quite rich. Move the IQ up and you should notice a change toward a smoother idle. If it doesn't, then it's time to look elsewhere, but not until you change the IQ. Simple logic first.
 

Tdijarhead

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 10, 2013
Location
Lawrenceville PA
TDI
2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Wife’s car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
I had a vibration issue, I couldn't figure it out. Finally I pulled what looked like a really good dogbone mount and found that the top side of the mount that was hidden in the sub frame was completely eaten away by salt. Changed the mount, the vibration was gone.
 

Banksy

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2021
Location
Pennsylvania
TDI
None
I have a update on this.

I found that the stored value is 32645.

After letting the car warm up and get to temp I changed it to the default value of 32768

The engine immediately got worse and felt as if it would stall.

The mg/str values started jumping all over the place as well.
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
VCDS can move the IQ only so much. It appears moving it to its base number made it worse so it indicates you have to do more. The answer is in the web page you were provided. Read it thoroughly. Did you read it all?

Hint: "If you have reached the limit of software adjustment to change the IQ..."
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Banksy, what you were showing from VCDS are not IQ numbers. Those are idle balance compensation numbers. You need to show those same block 13 numbers with the engine at 1596rpm and include the block 15 liter per hour (lph) and engine speed. Let's see those. You might include the real IQ numbers. Try block 2 or 3 It will say IQ.
 

bean1

Member
Joined
May 29, 2023
Location
Sheffield
TDI
Audi a4 b7
Check the Injection Quantity of the pump. Most likely it's set too low and therefore overfueling at idle causing it to stumble.

Have access to VCDS? You can adjust it to a point otherwise you have to perform something called the "hammer mod".
Hi can i change injection quantity on audi a4 b7 2.0 tdi 2006 my injection quantity is bouncing around 1.5 to 2.5 mg/str and it says it supossed to be around 3.0 mg to 9.0 mg/str thanks
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
When your IQ is bouncing around, either the IQ is bad or the pump body is worn out. Take off the top lid from the IQ and see if there is metal on the IQ toroidal magnet. If it looks like ‘the hair of the dog’, that is the end of your pump.
 

bean1

Member
Joined
May 29, 2023
Location
Sheffield
TDI
Audi a4 b7
When your IQ is bouncing around, either the IQ is bad or the pump body is worn out. Take off the top lid from the IQ and see if there is metal on the IQ toroidal magnet. If it looks like ‘the hair of the dog’, that is the end of your pump.
Hi thanks for your help i will change the tandem pump i think that is the problem coz i got what looks like oil in my fuel tank so will change that
 
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