Alt belt snapped, replaced...now no start

[Pitch112358]

Was driving, had a belt snap (75k and last week had it serviced for a DPF light)

Drove for another 20min with everything OFF, had to being in rush traffic in DC. Made it to work, parked.

Thankfully right next to AutoZone, got a belt and replaced.

Went to start, it turns and catches then it immediately dies. I had my buddy there with cables and it would not stay on. Battery is a month old and the best option from again, AutoZone.

Would that fry a glowplug or something that I'm not thinking of? New to the forum and appreciate it!

-Benny

 

[2004LB7]

did the belt snap cleanly or shred into a bunch of strings and smaller pieces?

 

[Pitch112358]

Shredded into pieces/threads, I removed them however.

Something get snapped that I can look for?

 

[2004LB7]

what can happen then they shred into pieces is some of them can wind themselves around the crank pulley and work their way into and under the timing belt. this can cause the timing belt to skip and go out of time. pull off the timing belt cover and inspect for debris and proper timing. if you are lucky then it only skipped one tooth. if it skips multiple teeth then there is a chance that the valves have hit the pistons and you may have to pull the head. if it was me I would check the timing, if off I'd pull the glow plug and slowly turn it over by hand. if no resistance or it doesn't feel like the valve are hitting then I would pop the valve cover off and verify the top end is ok. then put the belt back in proper time if it is in good shape and didn't get damaged. run a compression test. if all looks good then put it back together. and see if it starts

if any of any of the above indicates the valves touched the pistons then pull the head and verify and or rebuild it

 

[Pitch112358]

Hmm, interesting...could make sense but I don't have the equipment for all that. Gonna call Audi roadside to see if covered under extended warranty

 

[2004LB7]

if covered, at least you can recommend the shop check the timing belt before anything else. continuing to attempt to start it could only make things worse if the valves are making contact. you have the information above so use that to help direct them

 

[Pitch112358]

Now they came back with

"Timing belt need replacement, coming apart....normally it stretches.under wear and tear and a tensioner fail"

Not covered under warranty

Still waiting to hear back, so a belt tensioner failed?

How random is it that I had this serviced with a multi point inspection not a day and a half earlier and the Alt Belt shredded...AND then now the timing belt is needing replacement bc "it normally stretches"

Jesus ***

 

[Pitch112358]

Now they came back with

"Timing belt need replacement, coming apart....normally it stretches.under wear and tear and a tensioner fail"

Not covered under warranty

Still waiting to hear back, so a belt tensioner failed?

How random is it that I had this serviced with a multi point inspection not a day and a half earlier and the Alt Belt shredded...AND then now the timing belt is needing replacement bc "it normally stretches"

Jesus ***

Also, somebody let me.know know how to attach photos without a url

 

[oilhammer]

The accessory belt failed, for whatever reason, and it got pulled under the timing cover and derailed the timing belt. Depending on how far it jumped time, will depend on if it damaged the engine or not.

 

[Pitch112358]

Sounds great, but that's not what the dealership is pointing to unfortunately.

I think this is still developing on their end. Frustrating

 

[Pitch112358]

I got that car 2yrs ago from a dealer so if they changed the accessory belt and it caused this then it should be on somebody bc this is becoming.too coincidental

 

[oilhammer]

I don't care what the dealer is pointing to. Your description says it all, clear as the words on your screen. It happens, you are not the first, you won't be the last.

 

[Pitch112358]

I hear ya,.and appreciate the time you're spending.

Dumb question, I ran that car with that snapped belt for over 20min with no weird noises...once I parked it it was done.

So, barring that....why shouldn't I just request them to fix the timing and I can replace all the fun timing stuff on my own.if.that makes sense

 

[Pitch112358]

The alt belt snapped, not the timing belt.

So as a band aid (just.atrickly for money and driving it to home purposes) why not just.get them to get the car to a start able condition....which would be a timing thing.

Bc they certainly ain't mentioning an engine overhaul at the moment

 

[oilhammer]

I think you are confusing the issue. The accessory belt failed. It then caused the timing belt to jump time. One caused the other. The timing belt is a casualty of the accessory belt. And on an interference engine, any time the camshafts and crankshaft get out of time, pistons can contact the valves. On a diesel, this is triple so, as there is no combustion chamber cutout at the top of the cylinder in the head. The head is flat. The valves actually come out of the head and extend down into the cylinder, and the pistons actually come out of the block. The only thing that keeps them from getting romantic is the thickness of the head gasket... and proper time.

Yes, it is possible that the timing belt just jumped a couple teeth, and it is enough that the engine won't start, but not enough that it did any damage. It is possible. There is no way to know for sure without doing one of two things: retiming the engine and installing a new belt and related components, or taking the engine apart and checking for valve-piston contact.

And what sucks is, if there was a "small" amount of contact, because of the straight up-and-down arrangement of the valves in that engine, they can actually hit and slightly compress the valve stems and make them zig-zag but the valve seat will still seal up. So, you can put a new belt on the engine, it will start right up, it will run fine, until one of those compromised valves being forced up and down inside of the guide in a bind since it is no longer a clean, straight stem, will overheat and suddenly without warning break off. Then it is done. The engine is usually a boat anchor at that point. It could be 100 miles later, it could be 1000 miles later, it could be 10,000 miles later.

 

[DivineChaos]

I think you are confusing the issue. The accessory belt failed. It then caused the timing belt to jump time. One caused the other. The timing belt is a casualty of the accessory belt. And on an interference engine, any time the camshafts and crankshaft get out of time, pistons can contact the valves. On a diesel, this is triple so, as there is no combustion chamber cutout at the top of the cylinder in the head. The head is flat. The valves actually come out of the head and extend down into the cylinder, and the pistons actually come out of the block. The only thing that keeps them from getting romantic is the thickness of the head gasket... and proper time.

Yes, it is possible that the timing belt just jumped a couple teeth, and it is enough that the engine won't start, but not enough that it did any damage. It is possible. There is no way to know for sure without doing one of two things: retiming the engine and installing a new belt and related components, or taking the engine apart and checking for valve-piston contact.

And what sucks is, if there was a "small" amount of contact, because of the straight up-and-down arrangement of the valves in that engine, they can actually hit and slightly compress the valve stems and make them zig-zag but the valve seat will still seal up. So, you can put a new belt on the engine, it will start right up, it will run fine, until one of those compromised valves being forced up and down inside of the guide in a bind since it is no longer a clean, straight stem, will overheat and suddenly without warning break off. Then it is done. The engine is usually a boat anchor at that point. It could be 100 miles later, it could be 1000 miles later, it could be 10,000 miles later.

And there's many stories on here of a vehicle someone just bought it not to long ago. Or it being down on power and finding one rod short with a nice imprint on it. Be safe. Not sorry. I changed my Tb 20k early just due to age. It's other 2k now. Or more later. Buy once, cry once.

 

[Pitch112358]

You both are correct and I get it. I wish I could add the pics of what the service person is saying bc it's not specific.

In essence, my question is why not just fix the timing and see where we're at. Bc what they aren't saying is an engine overhaul. They'd be just doing a timing belt and timing anyway....so why pay $3100 just to get to the same spot potentially or...not get there if that makes sense.

All that was mentioned from them was a timing belt replacement and water pump, etc (like a TB kit would recommend) due to some fraying. Which, I would like a pic but I also get that I would need to do the TB ASAP on my end.

It's no skin to pay for just a timing and see where we're at since they'd do that anyway with a TB change...

Not sure if that makes sense, and yes you are spot on with the mechanics of the engine but that's not being recommended here

 

[Pitch112358]

$3100 just to see if I need an engine overhaul is nonsensical when they aren't saying anything about it and they'd have to start the car anyway after that. I need them to get the car started and see what's going on.

Only fault at the moment is a "Timing Correlation Fault"

 

[Pitch112358]

If the car doesn't start then there's a chance the extended long block might cover it. As opposed to where it stand now

 

[2004LB7]

find out how many teeth the timing belt was off by. I believe three (which happened to me) is valve contact with piston, two is maybe and one is unlikely.

I think one tooth off will make it hard to start if it will even. kind of depends on the timing of the cam before the belt jumped. two or more off will not start regardless of the cam timing

if the shop mechanic was smart he would have checked everything before taking it off. see if you can at least find us this information.

if it's one tooth off then in my opinion, I would install a new timing belt, accessory belt and drive it. if it was two or more then I would pull the head and check the pistons for witness marks and have the valves checked or just replaced depending on the cost.

may be worth towing it to another mechanic or guru

 

[Pitch112358]

I completely agree, I asked a few things yesterday (to include timing) to the service gent and usually he's responsive but I haven't heard anything today.

Next question is to def ask how many teeth it was off

 

[Pitch112358]

Also,

Can anyone detail what exactly is included in a multi point inspection? Bc they did it when I had the DPF reset/regenerated, and that was a day and half before the Alt belt took a dive.

Alt belt checked on that?
Timing belt checked on that?

 

[oilhammer]

I check the accessory belt at every service. Timing belt gets done at the specified interval, so it does not get checked (it would be somewhat difficult and fruitless to do that anyway... it would be like looking at a light bulb that works, and trying to guess when it will fail... hence the schedule).

 

[Pitch112358]

Exactly my point. Now, after some research I found that the DPF can be regenerated by high rpm over time right?

In which case, the dealer said they got it to regenerate and they put in $30 of gas to do so...

Can excessive rpm snap an alt belt, asking some rhetorical questions here

 

[2004LB7]

there are several types of regeneration. passive which is achieved when driving at the right RPMs and load to generate enough heat to burn out the soot, active regen which is done by the computer while driving which purposely raises the temperature of the DPF to burn off the soot. this is the most common type of regen. then there is a service regen that can be commanded via an appropriate scan tool. this is done while stationary and not driving. the dealership likely did the service regen. service regeneration will raise the RPM but nothing that is not normal during normal driving

 

[Pitch112358]

Copy, I love the new info to me on this diesel stuff. Living in the DC area def caused the light. Normally I drive quite aways regularly for some flight time but I'm not flying and BAM, this light happened then this belt and timing fun

 

[Pitch112358]

This the right kit? Should I get to the point of it running and I can replace on my own.

The technician stated that he didn't think there was any damage...so just this no start with the timing fault.

Audi VW 09-14 A3 Beetle Golf Jetta CR 2.0 TDI Diesel Timing Belt kit Water Pump | eBay

For the Common Rail Diesel CR TDI. Audi A3 8P 2010 2.0 TDI FWD. Compatible EnginesCR TDI. Audi A3 8P 2011 2.0 TDI FWD. Audi A3 8P 2012 2.0 TDI FWD. Audi A3 8P 2013 2.0 TDI FWD. Volkswagen Golf/GTI MK6 2010 TDI 2.0 FWD.

www.ebay.com

 

[Tdijarhead]

I would not buy my timing belt kit from ebay/amazon. Here is a kit from a trusted vendor that includes everything including coolant and the one time bolts you will need.

Timing Belt Kit (CBEA CJAA)

Timing belt kit for all Common-Rail, "clean diesel" TDI, including 2009+Jetta, Golf and Sportwagen. All components of this kit are rated for the full 120k mile timing belt change interval and are m...

www.idparts.com

 

[Pitch112358]

Perfect, THANK YOU!

technician said there's no evidence of engine being off a tooth or 2.

No mention of the alt belt getting into anything, and they said it's separate. This sounds like a CPS based on my experience with my old Land Rover. I just need the car in a starting condition.

Wondering if there's a glowplug issue, the coil light was flickering after every attempt to start

 

[CleverUserName]

Perfect, THANK YOU!

technician said there's no evidence of engine being off a tooth or 2.

No mention of the alt belt getting into anything, and they said it's separate. This sounds like a CPS based on my experience with my old Land Rover. I just need the car in a starting condition.

Wondering if there's a glowplug issue, the coil light was flickering after every attempt to start

Regardless of what the tech says, There is evidence the timing is off because you have a timing fault. You can’t ignore the timing correlation fault.

Is the $3100 what they want to remove the head and inspect the valves? That’s crazy

Take it somewhere else. This dealer doesn’t know how to work on these cars.