2002 Jetta End of Life?

[Rizriz]

I LOVE my 2002 stock Jetta TDI! But....

Cruising down the freeway at 60 (in Seattle, nearly unheard of) I accelerate to pass and the engine dies. Throw it in neutral try to start, nope. Flashers on, work my way to the slow lane and somehow safely exit and park in a street parking spot. Turn over again and get some pretty violent shaking, but no start (freaked out that the timing belt snapped). Have it towed to the mechanic (free with my insurance), he's getting an immobilizer code that he can't get past but says the timing belt is still intact. Tow it to the dealer (also free with my insurance). After day one, they call and say the computer wouldn't allow a reset, but then did, starts, runs super rough, drove around lot for a minute, died, pushed back to shop for more diagnostics. After day three, they call and are pretty sure it's the injection pump (replaced by a different mechanic 7 years ago). They're seeing metal in the fuel filter and the pump sounds like metal on metal. For $4k they'll take care of the pump and while they're in there, replace the timing belt (that is due anyway) too.

I email a TDIClub member, (@oldpoopie), six hours away and he is, not-surprisingly, super awesome and will do pump and belt work for $2k, but can't travel so I would need to do an overland tow that would likely run $500 or so and then my car and I would be six hours away so I'd need a train ticket. Call another shop that specializes in VW and comes highly recommended, but is a ways from my house ($150+ tow, not covered by insurance, but may be by Verizon roadside assistance) and they are suspect that the injection pump would fail like that. IF that is the problem, they can take care of all the same work for $3k. He's keen on me paying him $130 to do his own diagnostics. I'm not opposed, he talked to me for over five minutes which is basically unheard of and understood the emotional dilemma I am in.

So folks, it's a 2002. North of 200k miles. MPG has been **** for a while now (like 26 ish), but a new injection pump might take care of that. If I could get it in ship shape for $2k without the hassle of tow and travel I would do it, but that was the number in my head that I didn't want to go over. And there's no guarantee that this would solve the problem, I'm still worried it could also be the ECM or some other computer issue.

Is now the time to take it out back to the shed? What's a boy to do? I need this community's thoughts. Pay another $300 for a second opinion? Donate it to the local radio station? Part it out to club members? I'm leaning towards a second opinion, but if he comes back with the same diagnostics, now it's 15 miles further away and I have a $3k decision to make. I don't really see how if there's metal in the fuel filter it's going to be an inexpensive fix.

My wife says, take it out back and let's get a Highlander...come on, where's the TDI love?!?!?!

Thanks.

 

[Mongler98]

taking it to a dealer or a regular shop is a 100% waste of time. its a near 20 year old car and unless you find a unicorn old school guy who knows these cars, "your timing belt if intact" is not even close to good enough of a answer, same with an immobilizer issue.
Material in the fuel filter is 100% normal. ITS BEFORE THE PUMP and its impossible to suck up much of the bits that come off the pump in the return because it would clog the injector well before it makes it back to the tank.

what i would do is take the pump off, send it to http://performancediesel.ca/
see what they say. worth the shipping and a bit of time.

the bottom line you really are looking at is "Is the life of the car for the future worth the 2 or 3 grand your going to dump into it" the answer is NO. your car is only worth about 2 grand, maybe 3,500 to your insurance carrier. Plenty of people will tell you here that its always worth keeping. your asking the wrong question to the wrong crowd. Financially the car is a total loss to you right now because you are unable (for whatever reason, skill or not) to do the work yourself.
Yes the car is worth putting money into, but only if you can do the work yourself. If it gets totaled on the road, its a loss on your side. its not the most amazing fuel mileage out there and its old. the milage is really low for a TDI though.

 

[Mozambiquer]

Metal in the fuel filter huh? It's not very easy to look into those ones. Reading that made me feel quite doubtful that the first shop knows what they are doing.
I'd take it to the shop that knows what they are doing. 200k isn't very many miles for a TDI.
Now, one other thing... Your car is a mk4, not mk3 so you're in the wrong sub forum.

 

[Problypropylene]

Find someone near you that can help you put a new pump on and set the timing. It's not hard but you'll need to buy or borrow a vcds and some basic timing tools. Used 10mm pumps are cheap, like $100~200 now. Or find a good used 11mm for an upgrade (If yours is an automatic you already have the 11mm pump and the 10mm is a downgrade) Dutch Auto is a good source for rebuilt pumps for $685~850.

200k miles is nothing for these cars, but the labor of paying someone $2k+ is probably not worth it.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

My first thought is if you've been getting 26 MPG for a while you had plenty of warning that something wasn't right before it became an emergency. My second thought is the first shop and the dealer are populated by people who don't know much about your car. The immobilizer code is a common item when you have a crank/no start condition. And I'm a little mystified about how you would get (and be able to see) metal in the fuel filter. Sounds like the dealer is freelancing with info from CR failed HPFPs.

You have a decision to make. These are excellent cars, and 200K miles isn't a lot if they're well cared for. Maybe yours has been neglected a bit, but odds are it can be brought back. I'd venture you don't really know what's wrong with it yet, but an injection pump is a possible with the lousy FE you were getting. However, a slipped timing belt is a possible, too.

I'd (a) decide if you want to keep the car; and (b) take it to Justin. He'll not only diagnose it correctly, he'll fix it correctly, too. You can't trust the dealer to do either. If you aren't committed to keep the car for a few more years to amortize the cost of these repairs, then cut your losses and get rid of it. If it's cosmetically in good shape you should be able to get $1-2K for it as is.

 

[flee]

Based on your post, getting the car to a guru is the cheapest option, even with the tow.
But I would borrow a vehicle to tow it there myself. I've done that enough times...

 

[oilhammer]

I am with IBW on this one. I ditto everything he typed.

 

[Blacktree]

IMO, comparing the cost of the repair to the value of the car is a false metric. Instead, you should amortize the cost of the repair, along with the other costs of ownership, over the period of time you intend to keep the car. Then compare that to the total cost of ownership of whatever vehicle you would buy to replace it. If the TCO of keeping the car is greater than that of the replacement vehicle, then it's time to cut it loose. At least, that's my opinion.

That said, the dealership probably doesn't know what they're talking about. I'd suggest having it checked over by someone who actually knows these cars.

 

[turbocharged798]

Just get a used pump, reseal it and throw it on with a new TB kit. They are not a high failure item aside from the seals going bad and leaking.

 

[Rizriz]

Update: After talking to @oldpoopie I decided to have it towed home to check the timing belt teeth to confirm they were all there. On Monday I went to get it out of dealer timeout. They dinged me for a new fuel filter and a relay and then had three guys push it to the street so I could have it towed. Before calling the tow company I decided to crank it and confirm it didn't start. Well you guessed it, she started right up and was just a little rough. Thinking it would die any minute and then I would tow it, I sat there waiting. It never died. Eventually I drove circles around the dealer, waiting for it to die but instead it smoothed out! Then I figured I'd just drive it home and that is what I did. We went about four miles and it drove as though nothing had ever happened. Up hills, no problem, accelerate, no problem. I was flabbergasted. Does this change anyone's thoughts on what the cause may be?

 

[Nero Morg]

Air in the fuel then maybe? Crazy story though, glad she's running!

 

[Rrusse11]

Mirabile Dictu! So drive it to the nearest guru, and spend some money on a good going over. Could have been a clogged
fuel filter, or a fuel line, or the thermostatic T on top of the filter stuck. Whatever, get a guru to spend a couple hours on it doing ALL the filters, checking the pump, etc etc and then motor on! A helluva' lot cheaper than another car.

 

[BobnOH]

....................snip........................... We went about four miles and it drove as though nothing had ever happened. Up hills, no problem, accelerate, no problem. I was flabbergasted. Does this change anyone's thoughts on what the cause may be?

LOL, it's fixed hoorah! May have had contamination in the fuel or any of other anomalies.
Drive on, report back.
You may want to look inside the fuel tank.

 

[TornadoRed]

IMO, comparing the cost of the repair to the value of the car is a false metric. Instead, you should amortize the cost of the repair, along with the other costs of ownership, over the period of time you intend to keep the car. Then compare that to the total cost of ownership of whatever vehicle you would buy to replace it. If the TCO of keeping the car is greater than that of the replacement vehicle, then it's time to cut it loose. At least, that's my opinion.

In my opinion, this is the correct way to look at TDI repairs. Find a good mechanic, oldpoopie in the OP's case probably; have him make it right; then drive for another 200k or 300k or 400k miles.

With any newer car, you'll have the cost of depreciation, which could be more than all other costs combined. The OP's 2002 Jetta TDI is already fully depreciated, so will never lose $2000 or $3000 or more each year just because of age.

 

[Rizriz]

Final chapter: I just finally made time to take the timing belt cover off and low and behold, it's missing about five inches of teeth! That HAD to have been "the event" right? Something that catastrophic wouldn't happen driving home from the dealer at 30 MPH. When I first talked to the dealer I said, "is it the timing belt", and they said, "no, so that's good news". Then it took them 10 days to tell me it was the injection pump. Bummed, but I realize it was my own fault for not having the belt replaced months ago.

 

[Genesis]

Well you MAY still be in time. IF you are, buy lottery tickets and replace the belt and everything else under there THE CORRECT WAY.

 

[Nich]

I am surprised people are not screeming about the 26 mpg. Only thing I could think of is a pistons has blown their seal and you are running on 3 cylinders. I dont think a pin sized clogged intake could hurt millage that bad. Now that it is working get to a guru ASAP. I have the same car 03 with 226k and it is still getting 40+ around town (1 mile trips) and 52 interstate. Although my everything else is so warn out I would not spend more then 800 dollars on the car before I would sell it to part out

 

[rwthomas1]

So you "love your TDI" but fail to have the timing belt replaced at the correct interval? The single most critical item on these engines, and you now "realize that it was your own fault for not having it replaced MONTHS AGO"??? No kidding. 26mpg, and " MPG has been **** for a while now" It just gets better. So where "come on, where's the TDI love?!?!?!" Sell it and buy a Toyota. Harsh, but true.

RT

 

[csstevej]

Rarely it’s the timing belt that fails.......it is usually something that its touching, IE rollers, tensioner ( frequently due to incorrectly installed ) water pump seizing and F.O.D. ( foreign object damage ).
The belt failing is secondary.......

 

[Mozambiquer]

Rarely it’s the timing belt that fails.......it is usually something that its touching, IE rollers, tensioner ( frequently due to incorrectly installed ) water pump seizing and F.O.D. ( foreign object damage ).
The belt failing is secondary.......

But sometimes it does. Like the Passat I did for a customer today. It took 5 inches of teeth off the belt. The tensioner, idler and water pump were worn, but hadn't failed yet. Surprisingly the car runs and drives after replacing the belt.

 

[Rizriz]

So you "love your TDI" but fail to have the timing belt replaced at the correct interval? The single most critical item on these engines, and you now "realize that it was your own fault for not having it replaced MONTHS AGO"??? No kidding. 26mpg, and " MPG has been **** for a while now" It just gets better. So where "come on, where's the TDI love?!?!?!" Sell it and buy a Toyota. Harsh, but true.

RT

Harsh toke RT, but I get it.
I do challenge your notion that love equates to knowing the most critical item on my engine. You might not have found out your wife/husband's most critical item for her/his engine until you already loved her/him, but I'm not going to take away your love for her/him. Love and ignorance are mutually exclusive. But hopefully we're all here to learn to find the things most critical to that which we love.
It took me researching on this site before I realized how critical the timing belt was. The mechanic I went to (but won't be going back to) didn't give me a lot of suggestions for improving mileage beyond the EGR and intake manifold cleanout which they did with little improvement. If I had been told to spend $1500 so my engine wouldn't be borked I would have done that. Hedwig was likely shot out of the air when she tried to deliver that message to me.

 

[rwthomas1]

Harsh toke RT, but I get it.
I do challenge your notion that love equates to knowing the most critical item on my engine. You might not have found out your wife/husband's most critical item for her/his engine until you already loved her/him, but I'm not going to take away your love for her/him. Love and ignorance are mutually exclusive. But hopefully we're all here to learn to find the things most critical to that which we love.
It took me researching on this site before I realized how critical the timing belt was. The mechanic I went to (but won't be going back to) didn't give me a lot of suggestions for improving mileage beyond the EGR and intake manifold cleanout which they did with little improvement. If I had been told to spend $1500 so my engine wouldn't be borked I would have done that. Hedwig was likely shot out of the air when she tried to deliver that message to me.

I'm not following any of the "touchy/feely" stuff. These things are machines. That's all, love has nothing to do with it. Maintenance intervals do. The owners manual or any repair manual, or any forum, would have the information readily available. Ignore them at your peril, financial or otherwise. If there is learning to be had here, that is the message. At 26mpg you car was screaming at you that there was a problem. Virtually any member here that noticed even a 10% decrease in mpg would have been asking questions and tearing things apart. It's exceedingly rare for a machine to break without warning. But many people are either not paying attention or simply ignore the signs. You ain't the first, and won't be the last.
RT