Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[rustycat]

Holy crap. 60 days would be harsh. 10 days? WOW! Also kinda puts the ebil EPAs response in context. WVU study was 18 months ago and EPA has been on a merry go round with VW the entire time.

I think this may lend some credence to my theory that VW knew this day might come and planned a contingency strategy to deal with it--probably with a plan of action with the Gov. of Lower Saxony, a 20% shareholder in the Co.

 

[csl223]

NADA is the value that's usually used and it hasn't changed. But Just in case, I saved a PDF of the book value of my car when I found out about the scandal.

Did the same thing here, figured it couldn't hurt to have a good point of reference as things unfold... nice to know i'm not the only overly paranoid person here

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

Could you tell me the source of your numbers on the grams per year? I'd like to read that. Thanks!
And what that article was really pointing out was that VW can't compete with Prius without cheating, or so they think. With the AdBlue it would perform worse than it currently does and no one would have bought the cars. That's worth a lot more to them financially than $430/car. I think VW's 2nd dumbest move behind the software was calling the cars "CleanDiesels". Hello, it's a diesel. Clean is relative. The newer are significantly cleaner than my 2001 TDI, with about half the NOx emissions even with the cheat. They just couldn't reach the EPAs insane limits. But by marketing the cars as "Clean" they made consumers think they're helping the environment. It's still diesel, it's still fossil fuel, it's still not "good" for the environment. For that matter, no car is good for the environment. People who feel duped by VW should have done more research themselves. Heck, I'll buy a used TDI from this period in a heartbeat. I'll be polluting less than I currently am and get better performance.

As far as I'm aware from previous discussion on this long thread, new TDIs are NOT cleaner on NOx than your ALH, and are still many times dirtier. See here for some data: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448451

 

[redpill]

Wow. Banning 2.8 million cars, let stick it to the owners.

Won't happen. All they have to do is present a plan in 10 days, not implement it. They'll throw together something vaguely worded that satisfies the requirement and then get to work on the details.

 

[turbovan+tdi]

The Germans don't mess around - none of this "up to a year" stuff. VW has 10 days to determine a fix for all 11 million cars, if it's not acceptable they'll be banned from German roads:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/german...present-solution-to-diesel-emissions-problem/

Can't see that happening. Taking that many cars off the road would cripple Germany's infrastructure and 2, the people would revolt so bad he'd be chased out of office in hours. What a total moron.

 

[SageBrush]

Stand back I am going to do some science!

Tesla Model S: 320 Wh per mile.
20KW diesel generator: 1.4 gal per hour consumption.*

20 KWh / 1.4 = 14.3 kWh electrical per gallon
14,300 per gallon / 320 Wh per mile = 45 mpg

So yeah 45 mpg (Nissan leaf would be 50mpg). My 90% was being conservative. Now I am not saying anyone should run out and do this. It would be beyond stupid but it shows how inefficient internal combustion engines in vehicles are.

*Another way to look at it. Chemical energy in gallon of diesel = 37.95 kWh. 37% efficient diesel generator = 37.95 * 0.37 = ~14 kWh.

I was looking at petrol generators a couple of weeks ago as part of an off-grid home solution for those multi-day periods without sunshine my locale is prone to. I figured the Honda brand was likely to be the most efficient and was taken aback when I calculated out 10-15% efficiency.

It was so bad it convinced me to focus on integrating a PHEV into my plans rather than a generator + EV

 

[nwdiver]

Only 10% of total NOx is due to Fossil fuel combustion AND industrial processes. "The majority of stationary emissions come from coal fired power plants." 62% of total NOx emissions is generated by natural sources.

You're confusing N2O (What your dentist uses);

VS

NO and NO2 (what your dentist would use if he were a deranged murderer)

NOx is NO and NO2... not N2O; There are no large natural sources of NO2... small amounts are generated by lightning.

 

[LRTDI]

Michael Stipe was right. Its the end of the world as we know it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2UhvN0k74w

 

[aja8888]

I said the Model 3 is designed to be a BMW Series 3 killer. I did not say it will be the same price. In fact, it will be closer to the price of a Jetta TDI. My TDI gets 45 mpg average over its life. Diesel in California is average $3.50. In the course of 100,000 miles, that is $8,000 in fuel. So, the Model 3 is quite the bargain. Also the Model 3 will last much longer. An ICE is a explosion at 3,000 RPM. An ICE wants to self destruct. An electric motor wants to spin forever.

I understand human nature rejects something new even when the new thing is better. But the human psyche also warms up to the idea as time goes by. My prediction is diesel in passenger cars is now toast thanks to VW. It's done, gone. I also predict a huge amount of TDI fans (just like me) will make the switch and become very happy people.

VW took thousands of dollars from me for my TDI purchase. They laughed all the way to the bank. They cheated, false advertised, and lied.
They did exactly the same to everyone here. I can in no way find mercy nor defense of VW.

Let's see.....you have been a member here for a few days and have made 7 total posts...........you have it all figured out?

 

[nwdiver]

Michael Stipe was right. Its the end of the world as we know it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2UhvN0k74w

My TDI world ended 3 years ago... still feel fine

 

[TDIintheLOU]

Germany's not as litigious as we are, but pulling 2.8 million cars off the road will lead to a bunch of seriously pissed off owners.

I picture a scene out of a Frankenstein movie where the town people storm the castle with torches and clubs.

 

[Ski in NC]

You're confusing N2O (What your dentist uses);

VS

NO and NO2 (what your dentist would use if he were a deranged murderer)

NOx is NO and NO2... not N2O; There are no large natural sources of NO2... small amounts are generated by lightning.

This is deceptive. A large amount of NOx is natural and/or emitted through agriculture. Neither of those show in that pie chart.

 

[pparks1]

I posted this about 1,000 messages ago, but there was no reply. So I deleted my original post and am putting it here in hopes of an answer.


Maybe somebody can answer this faster that I can search for it.

I understand the main issue is many VW TDI's use a lean NOx trap to handle the NOx issue. But running it means less power and less fuel economy, so they cheated and didn't use it except during testing.

The alternative was to use a urea based system, which is what the Passat uses as well as Mercedes Benz. My 2013 has the AdBlue system, but it doesn't seem like enough was being used, 1% instead of 3% injection, etc. As discussed a software update could up this dosing rate, meaning I buy more DEF fluid and add it more frequently, but don't suffer performance or MPG drops.

Why would VW have not done this on the Passat already? Was it just for customer convenience not having to fill AdBlue as often?

I'm just confused as to whether the defeat code turned off the NOx filter functionality and if so, why the Passat is included here? Obviously the Passat is over emissions, but is it solely due to the AdBlue dosing rates?

 

[rhino4evr]

I was harassed today for the first time, by someone yelling "polluter" in a parking lot. Seriously.

 

[nwdiver]

This is deceptive. A large amount of NOx is natural and/or emitted through agriculture. Neither of those show in that pie chart.

N2O is emitted through agriculture... N2O is not toxic.

NO2 IS NOT emitted through agriculture. NO2 is what is formed under the high temperatures of diesel combustion. NO2 is HIGHLY toxic.

N2O is a Nitrogen Oxide but NOx typically refers only to combustion products NO and NO2.

 

[kydsid]

I posted this about 1,000 messages ago, but there was no reply. So I deleted my original post and am putting it here in hopes of an answer.


Maybe somebody can answer this faster that I can search for it.

I understand the main issue is many VW TDI's use a lean NOx trap to handle the NOx issue. But running it means less power and less fuel economy, so they cheated and didn't use it except during testing.

The alternative was to use a urea based system, which is what the Passat uses as well as Mercedes Benz. My 2013 has the AdBlue system, but it doesn't seem like enough was being used, 1% instead of 3% injection, etc. As discussed a software update could up this dosing rate, meaning I buy more DEF fluid and add it more frequently, but don't suffer performance or MPG drops.

Why would VW have not done this on the Passat already? Was it just for customer convenience not having to fill AdBlue as often?

I'm just confused as to whether the defeat code turned off the NOx filter functionality and if so, why the Passat is included here? Obviously the Passat is over emissions, but is it solely due to the AdBlue dosing rates?

My conjecture is that adblue dosing is low but that VW also chose to use a cheaper catalyst that isnt as effiecient. The catalyst in the BMW that passed the test is larger, but would probably fit a passat, and costs more.

 

[Hugh Mann]

Gosh - I do wonder what the larger-picture impact will be?

Overly-dramatic hypotheticals ahead:

No 2016 models released for months...maybe the entire model year? Now that they are in the crosshairs, VW will certainly need to prove their "fix" before EPA will allow it. That could take a LONG time.

VW delaying or cancelling new TDI models for the USA? If the new motor isn't emissions compliant, maybe they say forget it.

VW pulling out of the US market completely - after all they only sell about 300k cars here every year out of a worldwide 5.5 million. The size of this market may not be worth the time and effort if the EPA regs aren't reasonable.

Does anyone know what emission changes are present on the 2016 Golf TDI models? I believe I read that Volkswagen is working to get these new vehicles EPA and CARB certified. Thus I guess whatever they changed on the 2016 TDI's would be a preview of the recall fixes they would need to install on the affected vehicles.

I read the following article which seems plausible:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/heres-might-cost-fix-vw-car/

 

[aja8888]

I posted this about 1,000 messages ago, but there was no reply. So I deleted my original post and am putting it here in hopes of an answer.


Maybe somebody can answer this faster that I can search for it.

I understand the main issue is many VW TDI's use a lean NOx trap to handle the NOx issue. But running it means less power and less fuel economy, so they cheated and didn't use it except during testing.

The alternative was to use a urea based system, which is what the Passat uses as well as Mercedes Benz. My 2013 has the AdBlue system, but it doesn't seem like enough was being used, 1% instead of 3% injection, etc. As discussed a software update could up this dosing rate, meaning I buy more DEF fluid and add it more frequently, but don't suffer performance or MPG drops.

Why would VW have not done this on the Passat already? Was it just for customer convenience not having to fill AdBlue as often?

I'm just confused as to whether the defeat code turned off the NOx filter functionality and if so, why the Passat is included here? Obviously the Passat is over emissions, but is it solely due to the AdBlue dosing rates?

I wondered that myself about just increasing the Urea dose. But then thought that more emissions treatment activity would maybe cause the system to not meet the durability requirement of 120K miles (if that's what it is). Pure speculation on my part.

 

[nwdiver]

So yes VW cut CO2 by say 3% (which is a rounding error) by not properly controlling emissions and in exchange emitted a magnitude more NOx. I think you can see that isn't a good trade.

Lotta confusion about 'NOx'; In the context of diesel emissions NOx is NO2. A very toxic molecule, it's lethal at the same levels of atmospheric CO2 ~400ppm, fortunately it has a short half-life of ~1 month. So after 1 year 99.9% of NOx emissions have decayed into air.

Due to that short half-life 1 month vs 600 years for CO2... emitting 40x more NOx for a 3% reduction in CO2 isn't a bad deal. It also helps that you can actually SEE the effects of NOx... no one likes a brown horizon. That increases political pressure for cleaner electricity generation and cars that don't need to burn fuel at all.

 

[SageBrush]

Lotta confusion about 'NOx'; In the context of diesel emissions NOx is NO2. A very toxic molecule, it's lethal at the same levels of atmospheric CO2 ~400ppm, fortunately it has a short half-life of ~1 month. So after 1 year 99.9% of NOx emission have decayed into air.

Due to that short half-life 1 month vs 600 years for CO2... admitting 40x more NOx for a 3% reduction in CO2 isn't a bad deal. It also helps that you can actually SEE the effects of NOx... no one likes a brown horizon. That helps increase political pressure for cleaner electric generation and cars that don't need to burn fuel at all.

What is the half life of ozone and particulates formed as smog from the Nox ?

 

[nwdiver]

What is the half life of ozone and particulates formed as smog from the Nox ?

My name isn't google.... but just this once...

~3 days...

The incredibly short half-life of smog has been demonstrated by Beijing several times. They can almost turn it on and off at will by shutting down coal plants and restricting cars.

 

[croppz]

http://jalopnik.com/of-course-this-angry-note-to-a-volkswagen-tdi-owner-is-1733403658

This is why I absolutely hate the Pacific northwest. Bunch of hipsters with a massive ego problem.

 

[TDILeo]

http://jalopnik.com/of-course-this-angry-note-to-a-volkswagen-tdi-owner-is-1733403658
This is why I absolutely hate the Pacific northwest. Bunch of hipsters with a massive ego problem.

Wow, I hope I don't catch somebody slipping that note under my wiper. The person or persons doing that are not too smart.
And not all of us are hipsters.

 

[nwdiver]

http://jalopnik.com/of-course-this-angry-note-to-a-volkswagen-tdi-owner-is-1733403658

This is why I absolutely hate the Pacific northwest. Bunch of hipsters with a massive ego problem.

Can't handle the truth?

 

[croppz]

Can't handle the truth?

I can handle truth just fine. I just hate a few things.

1. People touching my vehicle.

2. Self entitled people

3. The Pacific northwest.

 

[tomo366]

I will be installing these on my car when they arrive......

 

[cowgirlkaboom]

I can handle truth just fine. I just hate a few things.
1. People touching my vehicle.
2. Self entitled people
3. The Pacific northwest.

Agreed..

 

[Sappington]

Chevy Volt is looking mighty nice right about now....

 

[TDILeo]

http://jalopnik.com/of-course-this-angry-note-to-a-volkswagen-tdi-owner-is-1733403658
This is why I absolutely hate the Pacific northwest. Bunch of hipsters with a massive ego problem.

Great. What's next for TDI owners? A good deep key scrape down the side? Or worse?

 

[rhino4evr]

Chevy Volt is looking mighty nice right about now....

It is?

Have you ever driven one?