Rosten rods - mass?

Status
Not open for further replies.

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
The above begs clarification on a number of thoughts, areas of potential confusion and to preempt potential finger wagging.

1. The above calculation is not to say that the I-beam rod calculated will be ~1.8X "stiffer" or "stronger" or "better" than an H-beam rod. In practise, one would (should) never design an H-beam rod cross section to the same envelope dimensions as an I-beam variant; within the constraints of available space and other limitations, one would adjust the aspect ratio (width vs. breadth) and thicknesses to give the desired Ix/Iy -- if these are even considered at all... An I-beam can certainly be designed so that Iy is closer to Ix with some compromise of the latter and, in the same vein, an H-beam can be designed for maximum values of either Ix or Iy to be higher than an I-beam; the only limitation is how heavy of a part will you tolerate and will your rod interfere with something in crankcase...

2. The calculations done to compare the I- and H-beams themselves are not to be taken as strict gospel and are not themselves the final calculations for the strength of a structure -- they are only to infer quick and dirty insights and trends. If someone took those results as gospel, you can simply rotate each cross section by 90 degrees and it wouldn't make any difference in the calculation results; we know this intuitively to be false - the distinct orientation of the "stiffer" or "less stiff" side makes a definite difference in conrod design.

3. The "best" conrod design may not be a uniform I- or H- cross section after all but some funky geometry. Or maybe an I is best on one part of the rod but an H is better on another so there would need to be a freeform blend to change the cross-section shape as you go from the small-end of the rod to the big-end... Or furthermore the optimal geometry could be a hybrid between an I- and H- or a X-shape. All the while, the envelope breadth, width and material thicknesses could change as well. However, this gets very $$$ to manufacture so it won't be done unless someone has deep pockets (and the need) like in top-flight motorsports, e.g. F1, WEC, etc.

4. There are many other considerations to conrod design than just beam cross section. Equally important, if not more, is the distortion at the small- and big-end bores under the loadings encountered in an engine. These minute distortions can "pinch" the bores or otherwise cause them to go out-of-round and disrupt a proper oil film, which could lead to spun and seized bearings. The cross-section near both ends and the webbing will have a big influence on this. In this same subject, more and more OEMs are using "cracked end caps" to make sure that the rod big end meets diameter and cylindricity specs when both pieces are joined together and don't get mismatched with another rod/cap pair or the caps installed in the wrong direction. Sawtooth joints are one way to achieve a similar objective and is more common for the aftermarket. Even simply tightening the big-end bolts will deform the bore in the assembled condition and steps must be taken to predict and manage this.
 
Last edited:

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
I am going to ask the biggest question. Who thinks that the Chinese are concerned enough to be measuring with the accuracy of the Sunnen AG-800?

I don't think so....
I'll get back to this thread after measuring mine with my inside mike. Usually good for 5 tenths or so.

The small ends had one that had a bit of grit embedded in it, scratched one of my piston pins I was using as a plug gauge. After the bit of grit was scraped out though, they all feel very close to the same clearance.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
sho'nuff, they don't know how to run their rod hone. I've informed them of the issue, and asked for a partial refund to cover the cost of properly honing them.

The caps were not torqued on when they honed the rods, big end's .002 out.

BTW, the ID of them is supposed to be something like 1.992", right?
Well they're that across the split, but along the length of the rod, they are down to 1.990", with two at 1.9905"
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
486,

My point is being made. We do not trust the Chinese to make a good rod all the time... Some of the time, MAYBE.

486, you have created a question. Is the rod large or small? If it is small, you can simply hone out the big end. If it is large, you have to cut the big end caps and recenter on 144mm centers. It's not all that easy.

If you have the typical H Beam with beveled wrist pin design, you cannot hone the wrist pin. It must be align bored. Honing will cause the hole to become egg shaped by removing more material from the thinner top area of the rod bearing.

We had rods returned to us that would not not allow the crank to rotate. The wrist pin bush had been honed to fit an apparent oversized wrist pin and they were honed cock-eyed. No one would admit fault and we had to send them out to be rebushed. $100 for the set. You should have the rod measured for any deflection angle of the wrist pin to the big end. It requires the right jig, but anyone running rods should have the setup. If it comes to replacing the bushing, then you need a specialized boring setup to get them right. Let me know if you need any help with that.

We have seen a variety of rods that the TDIers have bought. I can't think of a single one that the parting line was addressed. We use a diamond hone to break that edge, as it can cause issues. You only find that workmanship in the higher end rods, but it isn't a deal breaker. It is simply removing a sharp edge that can roll can interference with fit.

Here is the article that has been previously addressed...

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...n-analysis-of-i-beam-rods-vs-h-beam-rods.html

I will recommend the rest of the article that I beam/ H beam comparison diagram was copy/pasted from and let the the article speak for itself.

There is more to the answer than a single rod design. For example, many of the 1.8 folks like to rifle drill the rod for additional oiling for the wrist pin. Try that with an I beam..

Besides, when the rod designs that a similar to those in question here are going into monster engines with 2,500 or more horsepower, what are we talking about? We are building design for a battleship, then installing them in a dinghy. One of the statements left out from the article where I beam/ H beam rod engineering is taken from calls it like I see it. It's a game of OVERKILL. Lets be reasonable.

One posted their I beams survived an impact when H beams did not. that is purely the luck of the draw. Any rod will bend, given the incorrect impetus.

There is more to the story than a cross-sectional analysis. We know for sure stock rods can be bent with as little as 165 hp. We have yet to bend an H beam. The same, I am sure, can be said for I beams. We have them, but they really don't sell as readily. Some would say opinion trumps reason. Not really sure about that.

CRACKED RODS...
There is ONE GOOD REASON manufacturers are making cracked rods. Less manufacturing process means cheaper rods...30% cheaper. That turns out to be a lot of money for each engine.

In the performance market, I don't know anyone who wants cracked rods, as in order to get the rod to crack, the material by design must fracture, or in my opinion, be faulty. If we are going to talk about problems, why would anyone want to open that can?

Price, product, reliable manufacturing and reputation of the manufacturer remain important issues for this decision. 486 is clearly seeing this on a personal basis.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
486,

My point is being made. We do not trust the Chinese to make a good rod all the time... Some of the time, MAYBE.

486, you have created a question. Is the rod large or small? If it is small, you can simply hone out the big end. If it is large, you have to cut the big end caps and recenter on 144mm centers. It's not all that easy.
Nah, they're too tight, so I'm gonna have my buddy hone them out proper for me. Probably end up around $100 for the set. I've asked the ebay guy for $60 back and told them what their problem is, we'll see what they say.
If they end up too short, center-center, that's cool because then I can offset grind the crank journals to compensate. Get a tiny bit more stroke outta the deal. Maybe.

Interesting on the honing the small end.
I just use a file and a carpenter's knife on the parting line.
 

Nash_TDI

Veteran Member -TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 3, 2002
Location
Louisville, ky
TDI
2000 Silver Jetta TDI
[486],

Where did you get your rods from? Should have a few sets arriving tomorrow.
 

loudspl

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Location
Osakis, Minnesota
TDI
02 ASV w/ 02J
I compressed IE H-beams to a nitrous backfire on the dyno.

Next failure spun rod bearings, oil film compromised, rods survived.

Since then, been running rifled H-beams with no issue off the bottle.

Were they readily available at the time, I would have run Geir's I-beams. Next build (if and when) will have Rostens. Real Rostens, not copies ;)
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
[486],
Where did you get your rods from? Should have a few sets arriving tomorrow.
I'll wait to name names publicly until they get back to me.

Just make sure to measure them after deburring and cleaning out the metal junk from the threads.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Btw: the other problems we are finding is that the threads for the rod bolts are not tapped to full depth. The bolt will start to torque into the hole before the head of the bolt contacts the rod.

486, I would wonder why you would want to change the rod's crank throw if you have one rod length off. You have to make the rod undersized and that is begging for trouble.

I hope you see where I'm coming from. The production of the rod blank may be ok, but the finishing is haphazard. One of the rod fitters we use said that under production conditions, some manufacturers will put as many as ten rods onto the honing mandrel at a time and hone them all at once. It is easy to see how that will work... High volume does not equal high quality.

The rod finishers we use can totally remake the rod, if necessary, but it would be nice if you could get what you paid for? I am thinking is there are problems with finish, maybe we should get them unfinished and prepare them so they are right. An undersized rod is easy to get right. When they are butchered like we are seeing, it's a lot harder to repair, if at all.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
486, I would wonder why you would want to change the rod's crank throw if you have one rod length off. You have to make the rod undersized and that is begging for trouble.
Just trying to think on the bright side. I'd have to get all 4 bored and honed to the smaller length.

I'd probably do the boring myself. I'm a boring guy like that.
 

JFettig

Vendor
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Location
Blaine, MN
TDI
B5 Passat, 2010 Jetta
That's just silly, if they're bad, send them back and get the right stuff...

I wish I had time to burn like that ;)
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
That's just silly, if they're bad, send them back and get the right stuff...

I wish I had time to burn like that ;)
They're chinese junk, I'm pretty likely to get worse ones back if I were to trade them in. The ones I've got right now can be brought to usable form for $60 worth of machine work, on top of the 280 I paid for them, all in all cheaper than buying proper name brand ones.

Besides, I was thinking on milling my own out of 4340 plate, before I found these ones. I'd be into the plate for $100, and milling cutters (I've still gotta get more radiused stuff, flycutter works, but it is slow) for another $150.

ETA: Why have two turbos on your Passat? One is much more reliable, and a lot less time to set up and tune. We all get our rocks off in different ways.
 
Last edited:

777

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Location
northeast
TDI
1998 mk3 jetta 2003 mk4 wagon
For whats its worth almost every aftermarket rod that ive run on a number of different engine types and rod makers needed the large end resized larger they usually come slighty small
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
486,

There is a great opportunity to get this whole thing wrong. I don't know your ability or your tooling, but what we have seen is that rods are not that easy to get right. And then you are going to take all the risk to correct the company's mistakes?? That is taking a big load onto yourself and hoping for the best.

I am going to expect that most builders are not going to assume the risk you are willing to. I have to admire your willingness to try, but I see failure written all over this.

I am going to go way out on a limb and say that your average customer isn't willing to invest that much time, effort and pure gumption to force the proverbial round peg into this square hole.

If time is worth anything, this whole effort, 486, is well beyond what a good, well-made set would cost. We are very adept at many of the machining functions, but would never assume that we should dig our heels in and re-engineer what ends up being poorly made rods. Some repairs are best left to the specialist. We use specialists with their specialized tools.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
The facilities manager where I work - a home mechanic by hobby and engineer by training - owns several TDIs. One ingested oil from worn turbo seals and bent the rods. Just for the sake of trying it (not to mention he has access to a massive computer-controlled MTS hydraulic press and a fully equipped machine shop, he fabricated a jig and proceeded to straighten out the rods again. The rods have been put back into the engine, I will report the outcome.

This is honestly the first time I had heard of this being done (seriously), but I guess it's a lot more common than I had thought...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcc1beL3UQY
(I challenge anyone to do it ghetto style like the above Youtube video for their TDI. :D )
 

GOTADUB

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Location
calgary alberta
TDI
2002 golf
Not to bash or bad mouth the rosten rods if the Canadian dollar was not so low compared to the pound I would buy rostens. But has anyone ever measured the rosten big ends as he stated the factory that makes his rods kind of screwed him over and is sells to other companies. Very possibly the eBay rods everyone is bad mouthing based on the identical packaging. And the pictures at the start of this post I don't think they would machine the rods diffently depending what name that are putting on them
 

andy2

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Location
Bowmanville,Ontario,Canada
TDI
13 Jetta,94 Golf drag car 585bhp,Samurai buggy BHW 300bhp,97 Ram cummins
The facilities manager where I work - a home mechanic by hobby and engineer by training - owns several TDIs. One ingested oil from worn turbo seals and bent the rods. Just for the sake of trying it (not to mention he has access to a massive computer-controlled MTS hydraulic press and a fully equipped machine shop, he fabricated a jig and proceeded to straighten out the rods again. The rods have been put back into the engine, I will report the outcome.

This is honestly the first time I had heard of this being done (seriously), but I guess it's a lot more common than I had thought...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcc1beL3UQY
(I challenge anyone to do it ghetto style like the above Youtube video for their TDI. :D )
And I thought only I was crazy.

Can't straighten this one ! Had to open it up with heat to remove it from the block.From many years ago..




H-beams are ok if looking for an upgrade over 1Z,AHU,ALH rods.I wonder How an "H-beam" would stack up against a BEW rod for example? I swapped out BEW rods for the H-beams assuming that the PD rods weren't as strong.Looking back on this mabye I should have kept the BEW rods.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
I donno, as an old member used to say, w tf do I know eh? Later! :D
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
If time is worth anything, this whole effort, 486, is well beyond what a good, well-made set would cost. We are very adept at many of the machining functions, but would never assume that we should dig our heels in and re-engineer what ends up being poorly made rods. Some repairs are best left to the specialist. We use specialists with their specialized tools.
Heh, no, all they need is a hone job to true up the out-of roundness, and cylinder honing is something that I'm not yet set up for.

Eventually, I'll come across a truing hone set for reasonable cheap, and then learn how to use it. (and copying it in smaller size for smaller bores than cylinders)
This is honestly the first time I had heard of this being done (seriously), but I guess it's a lot more common than I had thought...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcc1beL3UQY
(I challenge anyone to do it ghetto style like the above Youtube video for their TDI. :D )
Interesting.
Would take a few tries to get the length back proper.
 
Last edited:

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
To go to that trouble and expense, rebuilding an engine with staightened rods... that is for experimenters, but there is a probablity I wouldn't wish on myself. We will probably know if it succeeds.

I wouldn't waste my time for the off chance the rod will be fractured and implode, taking out the entire engine. In almost every case, once a metal is bent, it is very likely to take a set. The rod will have a proclivity to bend exactly as it did the previous time.


Straightening the rod would more than likely require it to be over-bent in the opposite direction to take out the spring developed in the initial damage. The problem... I never see rods bend in a single plane. Which direction and how much to bend it? Not worth the time and effort.

It seems there are plenty of people who are willing to take 'flights of fancy', when a reality break seems appropriate.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
You guys don't seem to take into account the "third world factor".
A bicycle innertube will hold a tie rod end's socket onto the ball for long after the thing has fallen apart.
 

SkyRyder55

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI, 1990 Corrado G60 (AHU soon)
this is true. Ive used a coat hangar to hold my exhaust together on my old ford clubwagon.
But there is a difference between rebuilding an engine with bent rods and patching up a vehicle so it will make it home.
 

G60ING

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 5, 2001
Location
MD
TDI
No TDIs Currently, I have an R36 Corrado. I've had an ALH Corrado swap, AHU Corrado swap and 2003 TDI Jetta
This is honestly the first time I had heard of this being done (seriously), but I guess it's a lot more common than I had thought...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcc1beL3UQY
(I challenge anyone to do it ghetto style like the above Youtube video for their TDI. :D )
Now that's why youtube was created. It's one of the funniest automotive repair videos I've seen.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Heh...

http://youtu.be/V93-g4dpd7k.

DO NOT use Boig(?) at Don Tyler Toyota for you cylinder head repair...

Or

Go to minute 6:20 on... Http://youtu.be/wQbh-rq8Rbo. You can learn how a redneck times a TDI and his method of fixing bent valves. In fifteen years, he rarely has bought a replacement valve.

Better than these unbelievable duffers... I'm talking yesterday to a manufacturing consultant who was working with a major rod manufacturer; a company you would all know. The company was attempting to bore both ends of the rod by clamping the rod in the middle and honing both ends at the same time. The rod was binding on the hones and springing downward and upward.

After the rods were sized in this manner, the next process was a employee who 'straightened' the rod in a jig. The consultant asked how many required 'straightening'.

"On average, 7 out of 8...", was the reply.

Let's just say that the consultant recommended change in production technique...
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
The company is only an example of what NOT to do. They no longer employ that technique, so there is no point bashing a name-brand over an old mistake.

I myself have been maligned for a couple of mistakes that are public. We also learn from our mistakes and do not repeat them. I am not going to rabble-rouse, even if they are a direct competitor. That would be what my competition does, that I find very seedy.
 

SkyRyder55

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI, 1990 Corrado G60 (AHU soon)
yeah if the issue is corrected then life goes on.
Hey who wants to buy a GM vehicle. They are really good at learning from their mistakes. NOT. Recall anyone?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top