Renewable Diesel now available in NorCal

sangretdi · Mar 17, 2015

SFHGolfTDI said:
Sangretdi, have you kept your eye on your IP? I heard one other biodiesel user sprung a leak shortly after switching.

sorry for the late reply, just realized there are 2 threads and i had been following the other one.

i just had my ip resealed 4-5 months ago. i bought the car with a leaky ip @ 170K miles. the po used d2. i switched the car over to b99 and that stopped the leak completely. but since i couldn't always get b99 on the road, and it would leak like a sieve on d2, i had Matt reseal it.

after running 2 tanks on hpr, no leaks so far. fingers crossed! : )

Lucias_D · Apr 6, 2015

Just filled up

I just filled up today @ the Broadway location in Sacramento. I don't know what an "acceptable" number for the lubricity ratings are, but they did release a document with specs which can be found here. I fill up about every week and a half so we'll see if there is a perceivable difference. However, the price currently was $2.699!

Signs said it was compatible with regular diesel and is labeled as NOT being a biodiesel. I read up before I filled with it because I did not want bio in my vehicle due to leaks, etc when switching between fuels. I'll post my experiences soon!

Lucias_D · Apr 7, 2015

several hundred miles into HPR

Well I have some first impressions. I've gone through approximately 300 miles of this fuel so far and I must say I'm impressed. My injection pump has been making a lot of noise for some time now and it has quieted down significantly. Don't get me wrong, it's still loud but there is a perceivable difference before fill up and now. All of the claims of this fuel have been realized by me so far. Pretty interested to see what fuel economy on this tank will be as my numbers right now look slightly lower than normal, but time will tell. My normal fuel is Chevron #2 for reference

In summary:
Quieter operation
Smoother idle
Better cold starts
Less smoke

Fuel smell much less noticeable

Additionally, I know people have been looking for more info on this fuel and I found some more resources. I found that Neste Oil does the processing for this fuel and their website has a lot more info as well
Neste Oil NEXBTL. The brochure is also interesting and can be found here.
There is a footnote that states" b) Lubricity of 100% NEXBTL diesel is approximately 650μm, analysis report is given with each delivery. The lubricity of the final fuel blend has to be checked and corrected with lubricity additive if need be." The station I filled @ (Broadway, Sacramento) says it has an additive to lower this. I don't know if this was done before or after shipment but I suppose I can inquire about it the next time I'm over there.

Cheers

SFHGolfTDI · Apr 7, 2015

Lucias_D said:
Well I have some first impressions. I've gone through approximately 300 miles of this fuel so far and I must say I'm impressed. My injection pump has been making a lot of noise for some time now and it has quieted down significantly. Don't get me wrong, it's still loud but there is a perceivable difference before fill up and now. All of the claims of this fuel have been realized by me so far. Pretty interested to see what fuel economy on this tank will be as my numbers right now look slightly lower than normal, but time will tell. My normal fuel is Chevron #2 for reference

In summary:
Quieter operation
Smoother idle
Better cold starts
Less smoke
Fuel smell much less noticeable

Additionally, I know people have been looking for more info on this fuel and I found some more resources. I found that Neste Oil does the processing for this fuel and their website has a lot more info as well
Neste Oil NEXBTL. The brochure is also interesting and can be found here.
There is a footnote that states" b) Lubricity of 100% NEXBTL diesel is approximately 650μm, analysis report is given with each delivery. The lubricity of the final fuel blend has to be checked and corrected with lubricity additive if need be." The station I filled @ (Broadway, Sacramento) says it has an additive to lower this. I don't know if this was done before or after shipment but I suppose I can inquire about it the next time I'm over there.

Cheers

You might be interested in the original thread, which has lots more information and user experiences as well, here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=434322

Maybe mods should combine the two? But some people wouldn't see it if it ends up ghettoized in the Alternative fuels section.

romad · Apr 7, 2015

If you read the asterisk note Propel has on their brochure, there is only 98% "renewable diesel" per gallon; the other 2% are the additives required to meet the CARB Diesel standard (a lubricity additive is part of that 2%).

Lightflyer1 · Apr 7, 2015

Someone should suggest to them that they additize it down to 400 HFRR. That should keep the CR owners happy and no extra additives would be needed. I wouldn't think it would take much to make it happen.

McFuzz · Apr 7, 2015

I am going to give it a shot this or next week when I fill up my A6 TDI; I hope the fuel pump, injectors and injector seals will handle it well though the car is relatively new ('14 model) so perhaps my worries are baseless... Gotta try it though!

torman · Apr 7, 2015

Anyone confirmed the lubricity rating on this fuel yet? Propel brochure says additized to 460; max value set by ASTM is 520. There has been some discussions here that suggest less than 400 is best. Would it make sense to blend HPR with B5-20 to ensure better lubricity? Does adding PS do the job (have always heard PS is much better than Stanadyne)? Little worried of trying this and experiencing an IP leak I don't currently have, even though the price is right and seemingly the performance of this stuff is good, so far.

romad · Apr 8, 2015

torman said:
Anyone confirmed the lubricity rating on this fuel yet? Propel brochure says additized to 460; max value set by ASTM is 520. There has been some discussions here that suggest less than 400 is best. Would it make sense to blend HPR with B5-20 to ensure better lubricity? Does adding PS do the job (have always heard PS is much better than Stanadyne)? Little worried of trying this and experiencing an IP leak I don't currently have, even though the price is right and seemingly the performance of this stuff is good, so far.

Propel says to NOT mix biodiesel with DieselHPR.

DoubleReflex · Apr 9, 2015

Lightflyer1 said:
Someone should suggest to them that they additize it down to 400 HFRR. That should keep the CR owners happy and no extra additives would be needed. I wouldn't think it would take much to make it happen.

When I spoke with them, I expressed that I liked their old Biodiesel because of the added lubricity and wished that the HPR had similar levels.

They were proud of the levels of lubricity of HPR as it is, and it doesn't sound as if they have any desire to raise it. That is what I took away from the conversation.

Lightflyer1 · Apr 9, 2015

Quick way to kill your business. Unwilling to slightly improve the one remaining flaw in the ointment. I wish something like it was being sold here.

SFHGolfTDI · Apr 9, 2015

Lightflyer1 said:
Quick way to kill your business. Unwilling to slightly improve the one remaining flaw in the ointment. I wish something like it was being sold here.

I think the fact that they have a unique and amazing product will be enough to keep them in business. And at the low pricepoint they are selling it, it wouldn't be out of the question to additize a little stanadyne lubricity on your own.

Now, just launch it in SoCal already!

Lightflyer1 · Apr 9, 2015

I would agree about the product and I would use it with a lubricity additive myself. The general public won't want to mess with that though for the most part. Pump and go. Why have such a good boutique fuel and not tweak this one remaining thing is beyond me though.

SFHGolfTDI · Apr 9, 2015

Lightflyer1 said:
I would agree about the product and I would use it with a lubricity additive myself. The general public won't want to mess with that though for the most part. Pump and go. Why have such a good boutique fuel and not tweak this one remaining thing is beyond me though.

But I suppose if it already meets the ULSD lubricity ratings, why should they additize it any further? The only reason I could think of from a business point of view is if they keep running into fuel system issues from customers (especially their former biodiesel users). But those customers probably would have the same problems using ULSD also.

Is there something I'm missing that would make this fuel any different than ULSD that is additized to the same level?

Lightflyer1 · Apr 9, 2015

Bosch IIRC has been asking for 400 HFRR since 2009 for the new CR engines. With all of the other values so high I would assume they might want to comply with this too. Surely they have known about this and I believe the euro standard is higher as well.

romad · Apr 9, 2015

SFHGolfTDI said:
I think the fact that they have a unique and amazing product will be enough to keep them in business. And at the low pricepoint they are selling it, it wouldn't be out of the question to additize a little stanadyne lubricity on your own.
Now, just launch it in SoCal already!

http://propelfuels.com/locations/ Shows several SoCal Propel locations

SFHGolfTDI · Apr 9, 2015

romad said:
http://propelfuels.com/locations/ Shows several SoCal Propel locations

They're still serving up B20 at those locations (which I purchase now that our B99 coop is shut down). Propel DieselHPR is not available in our market yet: http://dieselhpr.com/locations

romad · Apr 10, 2015

Bummer.

Try this: go to http://propelfuels.com/customer_service/ and check the "Request a Station in your Area" then in the text box ask for Diesel HPR to replace the B20. I submitted a request for a station up in my area and received a reply the same day; not the one I wanted, though.

dkew5 · Apr 10, 2015

My first tank of Propel's HPR netted me 38.5 MPG which is down from 40/41 MPG. That being said, I noticed that I was driving faster than normal. Especially on the freeways, from 65-70 MPH to 80 + MPH. I am going to try keep my speed down to 65-70 on the freeway and slow down on city streets to see if that makes a difference.

SFHGolfTDI · Apr 10, 2015

romad said:
Bummer.

Try this: go to http://propelfuels.com/customer_service/ and check the "Request a Station in your Area" then in the text box ask for Diesel HPR to replace the B20. I submitted a request for a station up in my area and received a reply the same day; not the one I wanted, though.

Yeah, I got in touch with them when this was first launched. They implied they were planning a SoCal launch eventually, but were pretty tight-lipped about the whole thing. Refused to give any timelines whatsoever.

If you go on the original thread in the Alternative fuels forum, someone posted links to the original CARB filing letter by Propel for this fuel. They do say they plan on bringing it to 31 stations in 2015. They're only at ~18 now: http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/regamend14/propel_10162014.pdf

So I have hope it will happen sometime this year at least.

romad · Apr 10, 2015

SFHGolfTDI said:
Yeah, I got in touch with them when this was first launched. They implied they were planning a SoCal launch eventually, but were pretty tight-lipped about the whole thing. Refused to give any timelines whatsoever.

If you go on the original thread in the Alternative fuels forum, someone posted links to the original CARB filing letter by Propel for this fuel. They do say they plan on bringing it to 31 stations in 2015. They're only at ~18 now: http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/regamend14/propel_10162014.pdf

So I have hope it will happen sometime this year at least.

Looks like they have a total of 47 stations, and that includes the 2 in Washington. So does the "31" include the current 18 or will that be in addition to the 18, I wonder. If the latter and they include the 2 Washington stations, then that means 2 new stations will be opening somewhere. But not Northern California unfortunately based on their reply to my request.

Edit:
Oops, should have read the CARB letter first. So it looks like only 31 CA stations will be getting it this year; the other 14 (and 2 in WA) will have to just wait. I wonder what their timeline is for the additional 50 new stations.

SFHGolfTDI · Apr 20, 2015

romad said:
Looks like they have a total of 47 stations, and that includes the 2 in Washington. So does the "31" include the current 18 or will that be in addition to the 18, I wonder. If the latter and they include the 2 Washington stations, then that means 2 new stations will be opening somewhere. But not Northern California unfortunately based on their reply to my request.

Edit:
Oops, should have read the CARB letter first. So it looks like only 31 CA stations will be getting it this year; the other 14 (and 2 in WA) will have to just wait. I wonder what their timeline is for the additional 50 new stations.

If I recall, some of their locations don't have any diesel offering, only ethanol. I didn't do the count, but I understood it to mean that DieselHPR would replace ALL of their B20 eventually. I'll have to look at it more closely to see if that is an accurate assumption.

EDIT: Just did a count of all their stations that offer either DieselHPR and B20 and they total somewhere close to that ~30-31 range. I think its a fair assumption they are planning to launch HPR to all stations in the CA market that currently have a diesel pump.

b4black · Apr 21, 2015

The economics of Renewable Diesel probably only make sense in California due the Low Carbon Fuel Standard (LCFS). Outside of CA, the Renewable Diesel would be too expensive.

romad · Apr 21, 2015

It is currently around $2.799 or $2.899 per gallon, or about 15 - 20 cents LOWER than D2

SFHGolfTDI · Apr 21, 2015

b4black said:
The economics of Renewable Diesel probably only make sense in California due the Low Carbon Fuel Standard (LCFS). Outside of CA, the Renewable Diesel would be too expensive.

Interesting point. I'd be interested to learn how much the cost of Propel's fuels is offset by any credits they are able to sell. The pricepoint they have set for their HPR is really amazing.

stamar · Apr 22, 2015

how could i safely drive my tank down low enough so that i wont mix it with biodiesel?

SFHGolfTDI · Apr 22, 2015

stamar said:
how could i safely drive my tank down low enough so that i wont mix it with biodiesel?

I don't think you need to be overly concerned about a gallon or two of biodiesel remaining. Just wait until your fuel light comes on and fill with HPR. The warning is mostly for blending at higher ratios I think.

SFHGolfTDI · Apr 22, 2015

I just looked up a little more information about blending renewable diesel with FAME biodiesel. The Neste Oil website [Neste makes DieselHPR for Propel] states: "No limits on how much can be blended with fossil diesel or conventional FAME-type biodiesel; it can also be used as such in diesel engines."

However, a pamphlet available from their website here states on page 23 some of the technicalities of blending the two. The problem is largely for fuel storage and increased condensation, from my understanding. Also, the higher the quality of the biodiesel, the less likely are issues: "It is not recommended to store a blend of HVO and FAME. This is caused by the fact that there may be some impurities in FAME, and there is a risk for precipitation if FAME is mixed with low aromatic or aromatic free fuel."... "A maximum 7 % of high quality FAME (total monoglyserides max 0.3 wt%) can be mixed with HVO [renewable diesel] as defined by TS 15940. Precipitation risk of FAME’s impurities increases if more or low quality FAME is used."

I think, blending a small amount of leftover biodiesel in the tank that will be used fairly quickly shouldn't be an issue. This is probably for longer term storage purposes. Since renewable diesel is often used as a blend additive to "clean up" petro diesel, the warnings are geared to explain the differences when blending with biodiesel.

romad · Apr 24, 2015

I'd like to know how much the stations are allowed to mark-up the price. I stopped at the Sacramento Broadway location (a Valero station) and even though I'd checkedthe Propel app for the current price, the price was up to $2.999 which is not what the app listed. I did notice that D2 prices have been climbing but since HPR is different, I can't see how its price would change at the same time and amount as D2.

Oh, I'm going to stay away from that location; the Propel pump told me to see the cashier when it didn't print a receipt, but the cashier said they have nothing to do with the Propel pumps! He seemed as if he really didn't have a clue to begin with, however. I'll probably use the Folsom Blvd/Power Inn Rd location (Shell station) from now on.

tditom · Apr 25, 2015

Lightflyer1 said:
.... I wish something like it was being sold here.

I'll wager that any Chevron station in your area is selling diesel with at least 1% biodiesel content. That should address the lubricity concerns.

Renewable Diesel now available in NorCal

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