Newbies: Do not go to the dealer!

darkscout

Grammar Scout
Joined
May 28, 2006
Location
Michigan
TDI
2003 Golf
Newbies, do not go to the dealer. They don't know how to work on your car. They are over priced and cut corners. They won't do all the parts necessary for a timing belt. In general they will just mess your car up. There is sticky about "Gurus" look them up and make friends. Driving 4-5 hours to see a guru to have a timing belt done every 100k (or 60k depending) is MUCH cheaper than taking it to the dealer, including fuel and time. That's just the upfront costs. You'll also save $1-5k on a new head or engine when the dealer timing belt breaks.

I don't have time to follow all threads on the forum, if you see something that falls into category send me a PM so I can add it. I'd like to concentrate everything in this first post.

Timing Belts:
another botched timing belt job
Problems after replacing timing belt
What to expect when a Dealer does a Timing Belt Job
Dealer timing belt change
Timing belt mess
98 jetta tdi that "runs away"
Default engine hesitating after timing belt replaced and engine decarbonized (Look at the Parts List)
Default Timing Belt Replacement, Dealer Quote: $1500
Default Dealer Replaced Timing Belt, Now Replacing Engine
Dealer changed timing belt - now no power
Mississauga VW Stealership Boycott
Default help possible dealer issues
Help me prioritize deferred maint. on our used '00 Golf
HELP...

Other:
vw dealers has no answers but still wants money
Default Have I been ripped off by a VW dealer?
Car Dies Randomly -- Dealer Stumped
What can I do about a dealership service complaint?
Stealership story
Dealership mistake - New Developments
Bent rods in 2006 New Beetle


Positive Dealer Experiences (Fair and Balanced):
Default Timing Belt/VW Dealer

Thread idea:
york77777 said:
We should have a big banner up right when you log into the site that says "Stay away from the Dealer! Find a Guru in your area :)"
Thanks to all the contributors who have PM'd me: TDikook & DieselOx
 
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Joe_Meehan

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Ohio USA
TDI
NB TDI, 2002.5, Silver
I think it should be noted that not all dealers offer poor service. There are some good service departments at dealers. That said they tend to be more expensive, the tend to replace rather than repair and to replaces systems rather than just a part.
 

pbbreath

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Location
Redding, CA
TDI
84 Rabbit TDi
What dealer is good? Anybody who is convinced dealer service is the way to go just likes burning money.

Totaly take it to a TDi fanatic who works cheap and spend the extra money on upgrades!

Or work on it yourself, save more money and buy Beer and Upgrades!
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
When I bought my 2002 from a private individual, he had it service at "the dealer" exclusively. He was proud to tell me the recent service included servicing the tandem pump. Hmmm....a 2002 ALH doesn't HAVE a tandem pump (but they charged for the service on it).

I am sure there are countless "dealer stories" like mine. I agree with DS on this after what I have read on this site since owning my Golf.
 

vwtom

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Location
SW Florida
TDI
2014 Passat SE
I don't think that bashing all dealers is either factual or helpful to newbies. Before I bought my first TDI, I did some lurking on this site for infomation and almost did not buy the VW. I am glad I went with my gut and bought it anyway as these cars are truly excellent. I have found the dealer to do a good job, although not perfect. I think the hysteria about horrible dealers is tiring and I decided to write this as I feel there is a great amount of unfairness toward the group in general. (The people I know use dealers and have high mileage cars). If there was a local guru that I could go to I would, but to think there is no other alternative is very misleading to a newbie. Actually the known VW guru in our area told me to take it to my dealer for work with TDI's so I took his advice.

I have found this site to be very informative where a number of knowledgeable people provide good factual information. Sometimes it is hard to sort through fact and opinion to make informed decisions. My experience shows the dealer issue is opinion and should be taken as a caution only (as with any brand GM ,Toyota, BMW).
 

darkscout

Grammar Scout
Joined
May 28, 2006
Location
Michigan
TDI
2003 Golf
vwtom said:
My experience shows the dealer issue is opinion and should be taken as a caution only (as with any brand GM ,Toyota, BMW).
pbbreath said:
What dealer is good? Anybody who is convinced dealer service is the way to go just likes burning money.
Everyone should know most all dealers, including those from other manufacturers, are scam artists. This thread is more of a warning to the corners they cut and how it can severely damage your engine. Timing belts are the biggest one, second probably by MAF/Turbo diagnostic, then using the correct oil.
 

Joe_Meehan

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Ohio USA
TDI
NB TDI, 2002.5, Silver
pbbreath said:
What dealer is good? Anybody who is convinced dealer service is the way to go just likes burning money.
I certainly don't like spending money. And yes my dealer does cost more than I would expect a local independent. But from my experience they have been not much more expensive, convenient and they have done a good job.

To paint all dealers with the same brush is foolish. They are not all the same. That said, I believe most should be avoided. I even avoid my dealer most of the time. I have a timing belt coming up in the next year and I will use my local independent, not the dealer for this one.

In my case my local independent is not all that local and my dealer is more convenient. Sad to say, I do have a local independent shop. They were the #1 shop second to none for air cooled VW's but today they have moved away from VW and only support other European makes.

My dealer is Hatfield in Southwest Columbus Oh.

The other car in the family is a Toyota and a local dealer also has a very good service department. On the other hand it has a miserable sales staff.

I would suggest that if in doubt, avoid the dealer.
 

nydya

Member
Joined
May 1, 2008
Location
Houston
TDI
Jetta
i went to one to do the belt and i was planing a trip next day ok? guess what happend......my car wasn't ready i said ok they give me a "loan car" my god it was an super SUV big to me ( 5-1 woman little yes) and results??? as soon I got my car I know something was wrong they didn't do it right and my trip was history. and last time some one from here did it and was a real good job better than the dealer if u can call them that.
never again.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
york77777 said:
For those of you that say "all dealers aren't bad" I'd have to say there are most likely some reputable dealers out there that are competent and complete a job properly.

However, I'd like to see some hard evidence that in those situations said dealer would do a job as cheaply as a Guru from the site and as quickly as a Guru. To date I've never heard of such an example.
Cheaply? Not going to happen. I have a neighbor who is a Mitsubushi (sp?) mechanic and he revealed to me (after a few cold ones) that it is the dealership's "highest priority" to suck money out of people who drive their cars in for service. Car sale profits are secondary.;)

Other high profit areas are "extended warranties" and financing.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
York: yes, he told me that mechanics who don't consistantly 'beat" the book time to do a job are frowned upon. Although he gets his cut when beating the book, he admitted to me that "shortcuts" are taken by the mechanics to get the job out. This is a guy I have know for 15 years and is looking to go out on his own soon.

Tony
 

Joe_Meehan

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Location
Ohio USA
TDI
NB TDI, 2002.5, Silver
york77777 said:
For those of you that say "all dealers aren't bad" I'd have to say there are most likely some reputable dealers out there that are competent and complete a job properly.

However, I'd like to see some hard evidence that in those situations said dealer would do a job as cheaply as a Guru from the site and as quickly as a Guru. To date I've never heard of such an example.
That is not likely to happen. Dealers generally have higher overhead and will end up charging more.

It is also true that not all independent mechanics are good or honest or don't charge as much or more than your local dealer.

I believe it is best to dispel the idea that dealers are gods and that you can only have your car serviced there. Recognize that we live in an imperfect word and the buyer needs to beware.

Using absolutes in this situation is, I believe, wrong.
 

Doug Huffman

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2000
Location
Washington Island, on the other side of Death's Do
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2K3 Silver gone to new home
Then I'll cut to the chase; it is my experience and opinion that driving off the lot should be a TDI owner's last experience with a stealership or its no-service department.

NOTHING good has happened for me and my TDIs at dealerships - none. Every interaction with a guru has been beneficial and satisfying.
 

DwightC

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2007
Location
Emporia, Kansas
TDI
2003 Golf GLS TDI, 5M
While picking up some parts at my nearest dealer, I inquired about the cost of having them clean the intake manifold. They told me it would run me between $700-800. :eek:
 

Souzafone

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2004
Location
Freetown,Ma.
TDI
'99 Jetta A4, Whitish
Saying that all dealerships suck is the same kind of generalized thinking as saying that everyone on the trusted list is a guru. Trusted mechanics are such only because previous members report having positive experiences, and were dealt with honestly, not because of superior product knowledge.
Having worked at new car dealerships for over 2 dedades I can state that all successful stores try to make their money on fixed operations, that is parts, service, and body shops. We tend to buy our parts from our vendors here rather than dealerships because the vendors do not have to try to make up for another departments inability to cover overhead by charging a matriced price, as well the fact that they're mostly enthusiasts. The same principle holds for your choice of technician. While a guru has considerable overhead and can/should command a good labor rate, they don't have somebody else's overhead being thrown at them. Long story longer, not all dealerships suck, but their expenses and liabilities are greater, so even if they do good work, their prices will be higher. Also, there's no guarantee that because they were good once, the same tech will work on your car again. That being said, does anyone know of any VW dealers that do excellent work? That have an "A" tech trained to work on our cars? We keep track of dealers mis-deeds, but is their track record so poor we can't come up with a list of acceptable dealers? Something like " If you insist on going to a dealer..." Unfortunately, I can't contribute.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
DwightC said:
While picking up some parts at my nearest dealer, I inquired about the cost of having them clean the intake manifold. They told me it would run me between $700-800. :eek:
You could buy a *new* intake manifold, take your wife out to a nice dinner, pay a guru to change yours out, and have some money left over at the cost the dealer wants........:D .
 

joetdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Location
Midwest
TDI
2-2002 Jettas W/Auto
Joe_Meehan said:
I think it should be noted that not all dealers offer poor service. There are some good service departments at dealers. That said they tend to be more expensive, the tend to replace rather than repair and to replaces systems rather than just a part.
I have an open mind also and you are right and they do cost more..I am well where of some problems that could only found and fixed by the dealer due to help with and access to the factory..
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I get botched messes from all 5 of the VW dealers in the STL area... and I have one from somewhere in central Illinois at my shop now. I have also gotten them from Springfield, MO, Kansas City, MO, and some others in the Midwest area.

I know for fact there is not one single Volkswagen Master Certified Technician in most of the dealers the entire STL area, not a single one!!!

Much of their tech staff is apprentices, younger 'kids', or older loser hoosiers that are far more interested in smoking cancer sticks, drinking beer, and chasing bar whores than they are servicing a customer's car. I know, I was in that environment, and could not stand it.

As of right now, May 10th, 2008, I have had SEVEN botched timing belt jobs so far this calander year...THREE of which have resulted in the cylinder head needing to be removed and major valve damage repaired. Two others had the engine nearly fall out, and one DID have the engine fall out!!! Every one of these cars was last touched by a dealership. It sickens me that this happens, continues to happen, and that nobody seems to do anything about it.

At Lexus, someone would have been hung for these types of Crimes Against Mechanicals. :rolleyes: At Volkswagen, stupidity seems to run rampant and has no natural predators. :mad:

There are certainly some good dealers out there, I just don't know of any around here.

..incidentally, we usually just here of TDI problems here, I could give you horror stories about gasser Volkswagens, too. Just for kicks, go in to a VW dealer some time and ask them to show you the cam setting bar for the ATQ V6 engine. You think mangled valves on a 4 cyl TDI is an expensive repair, try mangled valves on a 30 valve V6!!!
 
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DwightC

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2007
Location
Emporia, Kansas
TDI
2003 Golf GLS TDI, 5M
aja8888 said:
You could buy a *new* intake manifold, take your wife out to a nice dinner, pay a guru to change yours out, and have some money left over at the cost the dealer wants........:D .
yeah, so true.

I asked them b/c I knew that it would be nearly ALL labor costs. I guess I'll do it myself soon or do the cleaning at the next GTG.
 

Blue_Hen_TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Location
Slower, DE
TDI
owned: 96 B4V, 06 Golf, 12 NMS, 15 GSW
How many dealers let you watch what they are doing so you can learn while they work?

How many gurus charge a flat $75 to $100/hr labor regardless of how competent they are?

How many gurus have knowingly put the wrong oil in a PD?

How many gurus charge for services not performed?

How many gurus have charged over $9,000 in routine maintenance to service a car for 12 years/175K miles, to include a mark and pray timing belt job? (I can show you the receipts from the previous owner of my B4V and give verification of the white paint marks from a guru who did the TB right)


I think you can see where I'm going with this...
 

Harvieux

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Aug 15, 1998
Location
Whittier,CA-USA
TDI
06 A5 Pkg.2 w/navi & ASEP
oilhammer said:
I get botched messes from all 5 of the VW dealers in the STL area... and I have one from somewhere in central Illinois at my shop now. I have also gotten them from Springfield, MO, Kansas City, MO, and some others in the Midwest area.

I know for fact there is not one single Volkswagen Master Certified Technician in most of the dealers the entire STL area, not a single one!!!

Much of their tech staff is apprentices, younger 'kids', or older loser hoosiers that are far more interested in smoking cancer sticks, drinking beer, and chasing bar whores than they are servicing a customer's car. I know, I was in that environment, and could not stand it.

As of right now, May 10th, 2008, I have had SEVEN botched timing belt jobs so far this calander year...THREE of which have resulted in the cylinder head needing to be removed and major valve damage repaired. Two others had the engine nearly fall out, and one DID have the engine fall out!!! Every one of these cars was last touched by a dealership. It sickens me that this happens, continues to happen, and that nobody seems to do anything about it.

At Lexus, someone would have been hung for these types of Crimes Against Mechanicals. :rolleyes: At Volkswagen, stupidity seems to run rampant and has no natural predators. :mad:

There are certainly some good dealers out there, I just don't know of any around here.

..incidentally, we usually just here of TDI problems here, I could give you horror stories about gasser Volkswagens, too. Just for kicks, go in to a VW dealer some time and ask them to show you the cam setting bar for the ATQ V6 engine. You think mangled valves on a 4 cyl TDI is an expensive repair, try mangled valves on a 30 valve V6!!!
Yup Brian, You are spot on here because I too have lost count on how many botched jobs I had to deal with after local VW dealers got done with them. I could spend up a good chunk of bandwidth here telling storys that would literally turn your stomach. I know you could do the same. The only good thing to come from this is I actually have one local dealer that knows I know my stuff. I sometimes go to management of this dealership on behalf of the poor customer and actually get most issues rectified. This particular dealer will actually consult with me regarding problem child TDI issues if the tech. line is down. Later!
 

Ben1000

Veteran Member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Location
Greensboro, NC
TDI
2001 Baltic Green 5spd
I wonder if VWoA has anyone (maybe PR dept?) that monitors these sorts of things.

Not sure what impact this would even make though, unless they did the "we don't suck anymore" ads that Ford has been doing for a looong while now.

It seems they are their own worst enemy if they are serious about selling cars to normal customers more than once. The only loyal VW people I know do all of their own work.

So it would be interesting if history repeats itself when VW cranks up diesel marketing and production in the US. (this seems to be what will happen) GM's diesel cars from the 70's & 80's were aweful but I think customers would have at least tolerated them if they were repaired reliably (GM service depts didn't have the first clue how to repair them, sound familiar?)

Possibly the difference now is they will have competion from companies that perhaps will not need service (honda/toyota) as often and are thus less likely to be messed up by the service dept.

Still the best way, as always, is to learn everything you can about any vehicle you drive and perform the work yourself when possible.
 

bayshorecs

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2006
Location
SoCal (Rancho Cucamonga)
TDI
06 Golf
Stopped by the dealer today to pick up a new tensioner nut since the one on my project car just had a standard nut. They gave me another standard nut and a washer. Feeling this was still wrong, I called JasonTDI.

Yup, they gave me the wrong nut. Jason told me to swap the standard nut out with the one on the windshield wiper (which is the right nut for the tensioner).

Moral: Dealers tend to screw up repairs AND give you the wrong parts. You really need to know what you need and not just have the mechanic go to the bin and grab what he throws on the cars...
 

Gil

Veteran Member
Joined
May 16, 2004
Location
Wallingford CT
TDI
2002 auto wagon and 2004 stick
I think there is a basic problem with our society in that technical people don't get any respect.
Therefore, auto repair doesn't attract the best people. Even if someone loves fixing cars, he will be hassled by his coworkers. I don't see any solution to this problem.
Did you know that correctional institutions teach auto repair to their inmates? That logic leads to the best service, I am sure.
Years ago someone could keep a car running with bailing wire and chewing gum, not so today.
Good luck to people who don't have a clue about their cars and trust dealers to fix them.:rolleyes:
.
 

Cas

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Location
Chicagoland
TDI
2009jetta
before i heard of this site, I used to take my rabbit, eco jetta and A4 jetta to dealer for timing belt changes with my own parts.no problems, I asked for the diesel tech to talk to first though.
 

ymz

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
bayshorecs said:
Stopped by the dealer today to pick up a new tensioner nut since the one on my project car just had a standard nut. They gave me another standard nut and a washer.
With all due respect for JasonTDI... are you sure they gave you "another standard nut" or a locknut that looks similar (but has indentations around the outside)? The locknut-plus-washer has been the official VW replacement for the factory-supplied shouldered nut for quite a number of years now...

That said, there are far too many instances of parts departments giving out wrong parts... (I have run into 2 occasions within the past 6 weeks, and I don't get around to fixing my cars that often... I can only imagine how many goofups somone like Jason runs up against...)

Yuri.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I typically just give them the part number. That way, if there is any screw-up, I can only blame myself. :eek:
 
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