Made the Move to Tesla

tadawson said:

That's only true if you ignore the environmental impact of making and disposing of the multiple batteries over the life of the vehicle, which is naive, plain and simple. Lithium mining is a filthy process . . . not to mention the disposal of the deceased batteries . . .

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I suppose that means that then we have to count the trillions of gallons of destroyed ground water, miles and miles of destroyed virgin growth forest, thousands of wetland areas, the disappearance of lake penoir and the salt mine below it, and the environmental disasters that surrounds a refinery all within 30 miles of where I'm sitting right now.

Is battery production perfect, God no, but it's way better than oil production.
Lead acid batteries are one of the highest recycled items in modern life, I'm certain that we can do similar with lithium batteries.

But hey, I drive a modified 12 year old diesel that I imported parts from all over the world to get it that way, I'm in no position to be "greener" than most of the world.

tadawson said:

Couple that with negligible range, and for me, it's a total 'not practical and zero interest' immature technology. I just did 1350 miles cross country . . . 800 one day, 550 the next. Not counting an overnight to sleep, total stops were *one*, duration 35 minutes. Legs of 475, 325, and 550 . . .

- Tim

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Model S can swap batteries quickly, but as far as I know Elon has no plans to build that out and is sticking to superchargers.
I also regularly drive legs in the 400 mile range, I'd miss it, but I'd trade it for insane power delivery/ torque in a heartbeat.
Remember these cars are only 20 years in to development in the modern age and the P85 D already outright embarrasses anything street legal with that much space in it(like actually street legal not "its to old for emissions/ safety") with out breaking a sweat. If you haven't driven one I highly recommend it, even if you hate batteries I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't put a massive grin on the face of any car guy on power delivery alone.
And as far as safety, yes several caught on fire, but it's a lower % than gasoline cars and they broke the roof crush machine when testing, arguably the safest car available today.

I had free Tesla taxi service at a Hotel in St. Louis earlier this Summer. Very nice car. I know it is not really carbon free if you don't have a windmill and/or solar panels charging it up, but you can add that to help reduce the carbon footprint. Not possible if you don't drive an electric car. Don't forget... biodeisel is renewable.

I finally saw a BMW all electric i3 on the road today. Cool vehicle. So small it couldn't possibly take that much to charge

I saw an i3 on the road in Omaha yesterday for the first time...reaction being never seen a BMW look like that

After the batteries are done with their life in a car their use is not over, they are placed in stacks to be used for energy storage.
Here's what GM does with Volt batteries.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...old-chevy-volt-battery-into-a-whole-house-ups

TDIpilot4u said:

I saw an i3 on the road in Omaha yesterday for the first time...reaction being never seen a BMW look like that

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I've seen a few i3s around the DC area, the most recent going from National Airport to nearby my house with 4 people in it!

They're really neat cars.

Depends where you live and what you need the car for. Here in Toronto, you can find Hybrid Charging parking spots everywhere. Drive to work, plug it in, go to work come back it's charged, plug it in when you get home and repeat. Our energy is almost 100% coal free in Canada with the last few in the Prairie provinces, and they will all be offline soon. Hydro, Nuclear and on high peak, Natural Gas. So in the case here, it's a way greener commuter car than any oil based burning engine could ever be.

The car is also fast as hell and handles on rails with air ride suspension. Did I mention it drives itself too?

Diesel vehicle can cross over shallow to deep flooded areas/roads. Try to beat that using a Tesla.

This is an interesting read about battery lifecycle energy, for what it's worth: http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/B/855.PDF

n1das said:

The new dual-motor P90D version has ludicrous mode which blows the P85D's insane mode away with 0-60 in 2.8 seconds. Lateral road holding is amazingly sticky at 1.1G's. Definitely corners like it's on rails! If you get an opportunity to test drive a Tesla Model S, all I can say is definitely DO IT!!

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OK, so it wasn't the dual motor version, but a 400K mile Bug TDI on competition tires will EAT a Tesla model S 85 on the autocross. Far cheaper, far greener. The Tesla Roadster was quicker than my A3 Cabrio TDI on street tires, but by less than 1/2 second.

re: battery swap idea. How good is the battery in your phone? your laptop? Does it maintain discharge as long as it did when new?
Now you pull into swap the battery in your new, just-off-the-lot Tesla and receive a topped-off, but well used battery that has 2/3 the capacity. Still happy?

To be fair, Tesla's battery swap program was always intended for long trips, and the plan always was that you'd have to come back to the swap facility to get your battery back. Swapping wasn't going to be a routine process for daily driving a Tesla.

Granted, the part about there being a grand total of one swap facility, and having to make an appointment, hurt adoption.

That said, the systems where battery swapping was intended as the primary method of charging were largely around European-market Renault EVs, where the battery isn't included in the price of the vehicle, and you subscribe to the battery. So, you were guaranteed a battery of a certain condition in a battery swap, and worn-out batteries were retired from the system.

I've driven a roadster on a short course and the power delivery makes it feel like an animal on what was essentially an autocross course. Admittedly it was a pre-production car with the 2 speed transmission locked in first and it wasn't a timed run.

I've seen 2 model S's at scca auto cross, they both DOMINATED F stock (something like 4 seconds to 2nd place) which they probably don't belong in, but both were in the top 3 times of the day.

If you browse tesslarari you will see this is the norm.

Wind and solar energy are mostly untapped resources in the USA. Our government is owned by big oil so only in small amounts can we use renewable energy. Look at countries like Denmark... Certain times of the year 100% of there energy is wind powered.

I love that we're comparing Teslas with street tires to Beetle TDIs with competition tires on autocross circuits.

VeeDubTDI said:

I love that we're comparing Teslas with street tires to Beetle TDIs with competition tires on autocross circuits.

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It's all in good fun My dad can beat up your dad, and my 15 year old car on competition tires can beat your brand new $100k car, too!

We should rename this thread: The "where bored veterans go to chew the fat thread"

VeeDubTDI said:

I love that we're comparing Teslas with street tires to Beetle TDIs with competition tires on autocross circuits.

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Or a Tesla Roadster on street tires to a Golf Cabrio TDI on street tires....
The claim was that the Tesla Model S is better for the environment, No, it's not.
The claim was that they handle and accelerate well, No, not that much at all.
If you really wanted to drive a green car, you could do so for far less cost.
If you wanted a quick handling performance car you could do so for far less cost.
If you want a kinetic piece of green-wash art that oohs and aahs the unknowing, then get a Tesla. Or the new Sonata. it looks a lot like a Model S I think.

There's a reason I don't have a newer TDI. I'm kind of stuck at 2005 as that's the newest that can run high enough biodiesel blends that keeps me greener.
Cogito .... I think. I don't blindly accept sales spiels from a wizard that says pay no attention to the emissions behind the electricity.
You like the Kool-Aid? Drink up.

Bored? no. Annoyed that others accept without investigating? Yep.

Lug_Nut said:

Or a Tesla Roadster on street tires to a Golf Cabrio TDI on street tires....
The claim was that the Tesla Model S is better for the environment, No, it's not.
The claim was that they handle and accelerate well, No, not that much at all.
If you really wanted to drive a green car, you could do so for far less cost.
If you wanted a quick handling performance car you could do so for far less cost.
If you want a kinetic piece of green-wash art that oohs and aahs the unknowing, then get a Tesla. Or the new Sonata. it looks a lot like a Model S I think.

There's a reason I don't have a newer TDI. I'm kind of stuck at 2005 as that's the newest that can run high enough biodiesel blends that keeps me greener.
Cogito .... I think. I don't blindly accept sales spiels from a wizard that says pay no attention to the emissions behind the electricity.
You like the Kool-Aid? Drink up.

Bored? no. Annoyed that others accept without investigating? Yep.

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Jon, Interested in your views on the Propel HPR diesel substitue.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=434322

Running my first full tank of it right now. Plan on topping it off when I leave for the TDIFest.

Also, you are wrong about the new Sonata and the Tesla being look-a-likes. Tesla is a larger car. Easy to spot at a distance.

Isn't autocross more about short sprints and manoeveuring than outright handling at high speed?

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2015/08/19/audi-tesla-x-frankfurt/31980513/

this might be a better car to compare with a Tesla

Nikola Tesla was a well dressed mad scientist.

VeeDubTDI said:

I love that we're comparing Teslas with street tires to Beetle TDIs with competition tires on autocross circuits.

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We are also evidently comparing a ModelS to a B4V today.

I bought a Leaf for my wife in February. We are extremely pleased with it.

We have savings set aside for solar but her contract at Trinity U is only 3 years so uncertainty about where we will ultimately be living is the only thing holding us back.
This of course means I am driving my 00 Golf with 350K to Austin every day @ 130 total miles per day. I fill up once a week, ~B40, 5 gallon B100 per fill up. I have to hand pump it into a fuel can and pour it in the car then stop and fill.
This is arguably more of a hassle than plugging the car in every night.

And speaking of Tesla, I bought about 250 shares back when it was $28. Happy about that.

And as far as crunching carbon numbers is concerned, I just feel like a small step in the right direction is better than continuing to run in the wrong one.

Lug_Nut said:

Or a Tesla Roadster on street tires to a Golf Cabrio TDI on street tires....
The claim was that the Tesla Model S is better for the environment, No, it's not.
The claim was that they handle and accelerate well, No, not that much at all.
If you really wanted to drive a green car, you could do so for far less cost.
If you wanted a quick handling performance car you could do so for far less cost.
If you want a kinetic piece of green-wash art that oohs and aahs the unknowing, then get a Tesla. Or the new Sonata. it looks a lot like a Model S I think.

There's a reason I don't have a newer TDI. I'm kind of stuck at 2005 as that's the newest that can run high enough biodiesel blends that keeps me greener.
Cogito .... I think. I don't blindly accept sales spiels from a wizard that says pay no attention to the emissions behind the electricity.
You like the Kool-Aid? Drink up.

Bored? no. Annoyed that others accept without investigating? Yep.

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Now let's not confuse the issue with facts...

Jeta Life said:

Nikola Tesla was a well dressed mad scientist.

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He sure was, the inventor of the radio, the a/c induction motor and lots of other amazing stuff. Can you imagine how people reacted when he was telling about sending energy to light up bulbs across a room, without any wires, in late 1800's!

When it comes to radio, Hertz and Marconi come to mind.

Nikola Tesla was an amazing scientist

Nikola Tesla ate dinner at exactly the same time every night and was a very meticulous man.

He intended for Earth's natural power to be harnessed for a better life for all man. Not for the benefit of monopolies, corporations and oil companies. Just imagine a world running on natural power using Earth's rotation and not polluted.

Nikola was at another level and reading about his personality and habits is very interesting. His ideas continue to inspire us today. Would of been great to have met him. A hard working man who slept very little.

Glad to see an awesome looking car named after him. I like the idea of the Nissan Leaf. My coworker from Hong Kong visited Japan recently and says the cars are very compact in Japan. The Scion IQ looks pretty cool. Mini cars like the smart are funny too. Wonder if VW will ever bring a mini car to the U.S.

Your post made me think of this

Nice website on Tesla's inventions. The Tesla car is way too expensive. Wonder how the future of automobiles will go.

Mass producing a car that can be charged from a regular electric outlet may be the future. Electricity has to be the way.

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I'm happy for you man. Tesla's are nice and I wouldn't mind driving one for a day or two just to see what it feels like. But I have to say, hybrids and all-electric vehicles aren't the answer. I don't see either surviving in the long run.

Take any conventional vehicle out there and it will beat your Tesla. While it takes a few minutes to fill up a tank, how long does it take to charge your vehicle? I'd say on a regular basis, it would take about 9 to 10 hours. Yes, quick charging capabilities exist, but how many stations offer this function? It just isn't practical. What happens if the power goes out in your city? While you're stuck with a dead battery, I would still be driving around.

How are these battery packs disposed of? Sounds absolutely terrible for the planet to produce and dispose of something Li-Ion. In my opinion, it's a wash between a conventional vehicle and an electric one. Both bad for the planet, one way or the other.

This isn't a bashing of you or the Tesla, but just some things to consider. The thought to go green is a step in the right direction though!

Except one advantage with EVs for homeowners is charging at home, and not needing to go to the fuel station. And, Tesla's own quick charging network is already rather capable.

If the whole city has lost power, most likely mobility is messed up because of the natural disaster that caused it anyway.

Disposal tends to be recycling, which can be used to seriously reduce embodied energy in a battery made from recycled materials, and also seriously reduce environmental impact from mining. Also, there's some technologies being worked on for in-road charging that would significantly reduce the size of battery needed, and potentially eliminate the need for stopping to charge on a road trip.

In any case, conventional gasoline vehicles lose very, very badly on carbon footprint unless you're using high percentages of coal in your generation mix (and then it still takes a diesel or a hybrid to beat a Tesla). Even oil-fueled power plants do well.

When Sandy hit here, the gas stations didn't have power. People were driving all around for a station that was open and the ones that were, had longgggg lines.