NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

GoFaster

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So, the questions at this point are
1. Why the heck VW did not make sure that they supply a robust fuel pump (we have the technology?)
2. What about the plan to dominate NA car sales in "X" years? It would seem that Toyota's LOUD experiences in throttle sticking SHOULD have resonated.
I am not worried at all. But gee.
1. Obviously, insufficient testing under "actual field conditions". We know they had these common-rail cars out running around North America for several months ... but obviously, not enough of them to experience this failure. And it probably wasn't in the design specification that the pump should tolerate a mis-fueling situation. Ideally, if someone fills up with the wrong fuel, the car should stop running (can't help that) but not do any damage to itself. If this wasn't in the design spec, then it wasn't designed for it ...

2. The common-rail engines were in production before Toyota got in hot water.
 

smontanaro

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Parts get redesigned and improved all the time without a part number change.
True, but if the design change is to fix a catastrophic failure you'd expect a part number change so the local parts guy can distinguish good from bad.
 

El Dobro

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To put this back on topic, if a safety recall is issued, it wouldn't be an extended warranty as the investigation is based on the safety issue of total loss of power. However, even if the investigation fails to produce a mandatory recall, the visibility is likely to bring some VW action on this (inspect/replace pump). This is not a $10K per vehicle VW cost as it is just the pump we are talking about when done prior to an implosion. If an extended warranty was to be offered to 100K miles, I would not be thrilled by that as I would still be left holding the bag if it failed at 101K miles when I expect a 300K mile car at least.
And this is what some of us are going through with the 100,000mi extended warranty from VW on the DSG. 101,000mi the thing takes a dump and you just bought a $6000 trans.
 

Pat Dolan

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Part of the answer is that the Toyota thing came up after VW had committed the engine to the US market. Another part of the answer is German arrogance. They feel if it was designed correctly by them, then it will not fail. Any failures must be because of the ignorant people who drive the vehicles.
First, I would like to reference this post and AJA888s post that followed.

I am a VW loyalist to the core, but I was also a mechanic and dealer, so I have an acute sense of the "arrogance" problem. I clearly remember when pointing out a press bar error in training when negative roll radius geometry (negative KPI offset) was first introduced. Our instructor (straight off of the boat) drew himself up to full height, turned bright red and spit out: "Ve do not MAKE mischtaykes!"

I am in the oil industry now (both upstream and downstream) and one thing that would bother me as a person responsible for technical matters is at what point someone is claiming that gasoline cross contamination "must" have happened. Certainly, at the terminal there might be a TINY bit of gasoline in D2, but it will be insignificant. This is where the brand name stuff comes in. Any tank farm I see has dedicated tanks, but I can imagine that some of the little, old places might do some shuffling. Carriers are a very different deal. They range from extremely good to extremely bad. The oil I work with now is ultra-sensitive to contamination (as in down to the parts per BILLION range for surfactants) and 95% of off-spec problems are related to the carrier(s), so I can easily see the situation where a tanker compartment is gasoline one trip and diesel the next. The retailer, of course, is an entire crap shoot. BUT, even if the guy (incuding US) on the nozzle gets it right, there is no way of knowing if at some time in the life of the tank beneath you, a carrier didn't drop some gasoline in by mistake. I think back to the "gap" time when VW did not certify their diesels in the US market. IIRC, they could not even FIND any LSD at retail distribution points (what would be required to meet emissions at the time). Also, from a friend who sells the stuff by the tanker, a LOT of high sulphur D2 hits the US, and I am still not sure it all gets re-processed before it gets into the distribution system (should be much better now than 5 years ago). Why all of this complacency about cross-contamination? Diesels are truly multi-fuel engines, and really don't care that much what hydrocarbon is coming their way - from an operational standpoint.

BUT: that brings us to the next step along the way - the pump itself. I doubt very much that Bosch would be re-designing to reduce cost when there is already feedback of what I consider UN-ACCEPTABLE sensitivity to fuel quality. The merry men back in the Fatherland know that too, but this is where the arrogance thing comes in. They would NEVER admit to being wrong about anything - ever. It is just the culture. And, I am sorry to say, if we want the best quality engineering on the planet, it is just the cost of doing business. It has also been my experience that once caught red handed, the official response is very, very slow in coming, but the technical response MIGHT be fairly quick - and obviously very quiet. Does not excuse this problem. There is NO excuse for it to exist - or worse yet for VW/Bosch to try to back out of their responsibility. The only way to deal with a teutonic manufacturer is to take a 2x4 and whack him smartly up the side of the head to get his attention first. THEN you can start to LEAD a discussion. If you follow, you lose.

Just a side-note on additives: our eldest is a grad student researching the lubricity properties of Canola (rapeseed oil). Fantastic stuff, and available all over this region as a lubricity additive you can dump in at the pump. B5 may be in your station, but I don't think soy based bio is anywhere near the lubricity from canola based bio-D. One of the advantages of living in the middle of the GWN prairies.
 

Fred N Tampa

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Has anyone posted as to what led up to the stalling? A decline in performance, MPG, or shuddering that we should be looking for? Are they just driving along on flat ground and it just dies? Will the car start back up right away or are they being towed? I haven't done any searching on this topic but having had the electrical glitch I mentioned a few posts back I wonder. All I have read so far is the cars stall out and everyone of them has had bad fuel.
 

aja8888

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Has anyone posted as to what led up to the stalling? A decline in performance, MPG, or shuddering that we should be looking for? Are they just driving along on flat ground and it just dies? Will the car start back up right away or are they being towed? I haven't done any searching on this topic but having had the electrical glitch I mentioned a few posts back I wonder. All I have read so far is the cars stall out and everyone of them has had bad fuel.
Not having a CR myself, I would speculate that the car would stall from metal particles being introduced into the fuel injectors and everything going haywire when the fuel flow abruptly slows down from that event.
 

El Dobro

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From what posters have said about the experience, it seems to be sudden and fatal. The vehicle has to be towed.
 

Harvieux

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Or maybe significant loss of hydraulic pressure as a result of the pulverizing of the aluminum cylinder wall combined with the roller and cam lobe wear. Later!
 

McKee

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Pat Dolan, thank you for that. I work in the Marine industry and this has lead me to be a little skeptical about industrial practices, or at least their attention to detail, so I'm right with you on the idea of fuel mixing before it ever gets to your car. Great post on your part.

The rest of this makes me feel good. I think its great that its getting looked into, and I think VW doesn't have a solution so they don't want to admit their is a problem until they have an answer. Which probably isn't the way I would go about it, but I can see their hesitancy to say "yes, our cars have a flaw" and then get asked by the press what are you going to do about it, they are going to have to say "We don't know". That is not what any company wants.

So, situation perfect, no. Situation greatly improved and making me feel pretty darn good about my new purchase, yes.

Its a good thing.
 

aja8888

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The rest of this makes me feel good. I think its great that its getting looked into, and I think VW doesn't have a solution so they don't want to admit their is a problem until they have an answer. Which probably isn't the way I would go about it, but I can see their hesitancy to say "yes, our cars have a flaw" and then get asked by the press what are you going to do about it, they are going to have to say "We don't know". That is not what any company wants.

So, situation perfect, no. Situation greatly improved and making me feel pretty darn good about my new purchase, yes.

Its a good thing.
Keep in mind, VW and all other large corporations are run by lawyers and bean counters.....so don't expect the ride to smooth on this.:rolleyes:
 

Samcar222

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VW is also being "plagued" (Really? Only 160 complaints to date?) by complaints and from what I've seen there really is no evidence that the pump is bad. There are many, many owners many on this and other forums who are pushing their CR TDIs into the 100,000 mile mark with no HPFP issues. I'm highly skeptical of the few problems that have been presented. If you use good quality, name brand diesel and don't let the car sit for long periods of time, change you're filter at proper interval and maybe use a good lubricity additive I don't think there is anything to worry about.
Amen, lubricity additive, proper maintenance intervals.. drive more, worry less.
 

dzcad90

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True, but if the design change is to fix a catastrophic failure you'd expect a part number change so the local parts guy can distinguish good from bad.
See, but there IS no distinction. The part was updated, supposedly to improve reliability mid production.

A. They are using these things as fast as they can make them, so there's likely very little "old stock" laying around.

B. If you could order Part A or part B, with part A having the propensity to grenade, why would ANYONE ever order part A again? The warehouse would be stuck with the old "A" as everyone favors the "B" part.

Besides, most parts guys just order what ETKA tells them to based upon the VIN. In most cases if you go in with knowledge about a part that has been improved, you probably know more about it than the parts guy.
 

ddorrer

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For the most part, it is not the TDi owners fault they found gasoline in the diesel fuel. Owners have NO control over the service stations storage and dispensing.

I tend to use diesel Truck Only pumps that way not to comingle any gasoline and diesel.Not knowing much about pump design, I can only assume that the pipes from the underground tanks to the pump are diverse, but tankers do use the same lines to pump the fuels into the underground tanks.

This will be an expensive fix is there is a recall.
 

bhutchins

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another is in the transportation. Here in Portland OR, we have no refineries, it is piped from Belvue WA using a Kinder Morgan pipeline http://www.kindermorgan.com/. It lands in a tank farm in NW Portland, then is re-piped to Eugene OR. Every fuel from Diesel to unleded to jet is put through the same pipe. They probably put a pig in to sepeate, and any cross contamination should be minimal, but it is another source that isnt the owners fault. This would also hold true for tanker trucks and the barges that bring fuel from Portland to Pasco WA.

Another article about NHTSA ironically on the same page as Kinder Morgan in yesterdays Oregonian news paper page B4
 

LoyalWhite

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I think there's a date of manufacturer on the pump - it's on a white sticker. You can take a peek at it, though you might need a hand mirror to see it.

Edit: The statement is somewhat ambiguous: "Volkswagen implemented design changes for the HPFP in May 2008, September 2009 and November 2010...." That doesn't make it at all clear if the design was changed at that point or if the changes made it into production vehicles.

There was a thread floating around a while back where people were posting the content of the white sticker on the HPFP. Now that design changes have been confirmed and we have an approximate date range to work with we might be able to make SOME kind of conclusion as to what this data means.

This finding also lends some credibility to the poster that seemed to briefly make his presence known on this forum by stating that there's a database that VW has for which they knew which cars had a "defective" fuel pump. However, since the failures continued to happen after a certain point, this is likely why VW may not have acted upon this informaiton or made it available in the US.

Link to the thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=271304
Thanks for the link Don, turns out mine was from the second batch with a 9-9-10 build date.
I wonder what they changed?
PM sent to be added to the spreadsheet!
 
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Harvieux

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Just wanted to let all know I am still continuing to keep the pressure on. Just 30-40 minutes ago I was on the Motor Man Radio Show (Leon Kaplan) ie: KABC AM 790, Los Angeles. Leon has a listening audiance in the millions.

A lady caller before me was asking if she should by a gas Jetta or a TDI. Leon was kinda plugging for the TDI due to tremendous fuel economy and also claimed the maintenance would be cheaper due to no spark plugs.

I told the screener about my background and started into the current NHSTA investigation. After about 30 minutes of being on hold, I was on the air with Leon and I really went at it explaining the ordeal. Leon did not know about this issue and mentioned he was concerned to learn this because he has many people he personally knows that owns these CR TDIs. Later!
 

Maine12

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I would assume that VW had to submit a position paper to the NHTSA in responce to this investigation. I wonder if it would give more details than what is presented in the NHTSB report. If so it would be interesting to get ahold of it.
 

aja8888

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another is in the transportation. Here in Portland OR, we have no refineries, it is piped from Belvue WA using a Kinder Morgan pipeline http://www.kindermorgan.com/. It lands in a tank farm in NW Portland, then is re-piped to Eugene OR. Every fuel from Diesel to unleded to jet is put through the same pipe. They probably put a pig in to sepeate, and any cross contamination should be minimal, but it is another source that isnt the owners fault. This would also hold true for tanker trucks and the barges that bring fuel from Portland to Pasco WA.
Good point on the pipeline interface issue! What really happens is when there is an interface of say D2 and gasoline, the interface material is removed from the system at the terminal and stored in what's called a "transmix" storage tank. That transmix is sold to refiners who specialize in recovering a usable stock for later use in reformulation.

Pigging is a process to clean out scale and other material from pipelines under a maintenance procedure. Wastes collected from pigging are disposed of in approved facilities. Hi tech "smart" pigs are used to ultrasonically test the walls of a pipeline for corrosion damage, etc. Pipelines also undergo hydrostatic testing for integrity purposes. This is typically done with water.

Pipelines are looked after quite well, as a matter of practice.
 

Pyke

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Part of the answer is that the Toyota thing came up after VW had committed the engine to the US market. Another part of the answer is German arrogance. They feel if it was designed correctly by them, then it will not fail. Any failures must be because of the ignorant people who drive the vehicles.
I am dating a German.

You can tell a German, but you can't tell them much.

Their culture is ARROGANT and consider EVERYONE more ignorant than them. ALWAYS.
 

MonsterTDI09

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Just wanted to let all know I am still continuing to keep the pressure on. Just 30-40 minutes ago I was on the Motor Man Radio Show (Leon Kaplan) ie: KABC AM 790, Los Angeles. Leon has a listening audiance in the millions.

A lady caller before me was asking if she should by a gas Jetta or a TDI. Leon was kinda plugging for the TDI due to tremendous fuel economy and also claimed the maintenance would be cheaper due to no spark plugs.

I told the screener about my background and started into the current NHSTA investigation. After about 30 minutes of being on hold, I was on the air with Leon and I really went at it explaining the ordeal. Leon did not know about this issue and mentioned he was concerned to learn this because he has many people he personally knows that owns these CR TDIs. Later!



Do you have a recording of the show?
 

falcon_1898

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Finally, there is a dawn in sight. Hopefully VW will be forced into a total recall. I personally do not think an extended warranty will be of much worth, as TDI owners are usually in for the long haul - maybe into the 200k range. So, even if the warranty on the fuel system is extended to 100k, what happens at 101k?

In addition, I'm not too sure how these recalls work. If NHTSA requests a recall from VW, does VW implement it only in the USA or would they have to do it for Canada as well?

Some of us are saying to use an additive for good measure, but why should a new car be purchased knowing that it can't run properly out of the box? Running problem-free should not be a luxury, nor should it require the daily interaction of the user. If VW CR cars do indeed need an additive to run properly, why not design in a refillable additive system similar to Bluetec urea injection for exhaust treatment?

On one hand I hope that this issue gets as much publicity as possible so that VW will be pressured into taking corrective actions.
On the other hand, how would these negative publicity affect the resale value of our cars, even after a recall in the future? Does the mass recall of Toyota influence your purchase decision at all?
 

LRTDI

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The only way VW "knows" the fuel is contaminated is the dealers doing tests.

Nobody whose suffered a Hpfp failure has reported that they were shown the results of any fuel test. Furthermore, to make such a claim requires a quality chain of custody of the fuel sample and none exists.

VW claims are at best not credible.
 

Harvieux

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Do you have a recording of the show?
You can go to: http://www.kabc.com/Article.asp?id=651431

On the right side of the page, you will see "Podcasting". Go down and select "Leon Motorman on demand". Today's show is not up as of yet but, I guess it will be available in the near future. You will notice Jan. 30 is the latest podcast and it is listed 3 times. It's a 3 hour show and it allows you to listen to each hour of the show seperately. I think my participation takes place in th beginning of the 3rd hour and possibly even to end of the second hour. Leon introduces me by my first name, "Leonard". I was a bit nervous but, I think I got the point across pretty good. My tech was listening and told me it was great. ;) Later!
 

GoFaster

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In addition, I'm not too sure how these recalls work. If NHTSA requests a recall from VW, does VW implement it only in the USA or would they have to do it for Canada as well?
I just went through the entire list of failures that are in the consolidated list of failures on THIS site, and there is only one entry in the list from Canada, and that one appears to be a pressure regulator problem, which differs from the rest of the failures (the usual problem involves the plunger itself, not the pressure regulator).

Canada has a different standard for diesel fuel from the USA. It MAY make a difference.

NHTSA has as much jurisdiction in Canada as Transport Canada does in the USA ... none. Having said that, it is not uncommon for vehicle manufacturers to do the same things in both markets, as far as recalls are concerned. But there is nothing FORCING them to.

If the fault is eventually found to be that the underlying problem is that the US standard for diesel fuel is lacking but our (differing) standard is okay, then it may not be necessary to take any action in Canada.
 

jbright

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Does anyone know what HPFP is used in 2.0 L. CR TDIs sold in other parts of the world? Would it be a different version than the one used in US cars?
 

GoFaster

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I found a confirmation for the differing lubricity standard in Canada. See question 19 in this question-and-answer document.

http://www.believeinit.ca/userfiles/pdf/ULSD_Q&A_e.pdf

The wear scar limit is 460, which is in line with the recommendations of fuel injection equipment manufacturers (including Bosch, the manufacturer of that infamous HPFP), in line with standards elsewhere in the world, and more stringent than the US limit of 520.

To ME, it is sounding more and more like the USA needs to change its standard to match the rest of the world. Good luck with that.
 

falcon_1898

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I found a confirmation for the differing lubricity standard in Canada. See question 19 in this question-and-answer document.

http://www.believeinit.ca/userfiles/pdf/ULSD_Q&A_e.pdf

The wear scar limit is 460, which is in line with the recommendations of fuel injection equipment manufacturers (including Bosch, the manufacturer of that infamous HPFP), in line with standards elsewhere in the world, and more stringent than the US limit of 520.

To ME, it is sounding more and more like the USA needs to change its standard to match the rest of the world. Good luck with that.
Thanks for the find!

Well, this may explain why there aren't many reports with Canadian cars... with the one or two reported here, somebody said they were using some home brew or other unspecified fuel.
 

lghf

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I always confirm which handle the gas jockey grabs before pumping, but even if I didn't, shouldn't pay to pay $10,000 because he made a mistake by pumping in gas.

This is def a design flaw by VW.
If, your worried about an attendant making a mistake fill it yourself.

Self-Serve is LEGAL for diesel throughout the US.
NJ law is N.J.S.A. 34:3A-4.
 

TornadoRed

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Great news, hopefully there will be a recall!
The number of incidents is too small to justify a recall. But VWoA needs to take care of this and not deny warranty coverage for replacement of this part.

It's actually a major blunder by VW -- they should have just told the dealers to replace the parts and not try to stiff the customers. The bad publicity is more costly than the parts and labor for these ~200 TDIs.
 
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