Scary situation

Little Jack

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2001
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado
TDI
Golf GL Reflex Silver 2001
The timing belt on my 2001 Golf (with 140 thousand miles) was changed on June 2nd by a mechanic using the TB kit from Idparts. Afterwards the car sat in my garage until I took a 50 mile trip to get my emissions test for the car's registration. My car tested with the lowest emissions it had ever had in its life. A week later, my wife, my dog and I took a trip from Colorado Springs to Boulder. On the trip up, we were cruising at 75 with the AC blowing nicely. On the way back we had a major problem. That section of Interstate 25 has construction with cement barriers on either side of the highway and no shoulder. We were going 70 when I heard a muffled pop and started losing power. The engine continued to run but was rapidly losing power. The cement barriers had about a 100 yard opening with access to a shoulder. My Golf saved our lives by making it to that opening before it completely died. If that catastrophe had happened 5 seconds earlier or later with no way out, we may have been killed or at the very least caused a horrible traffic jam. AAA and the State Troopers were called along with Lyft to give us a ride home.

My beloved Golf has been sitting in the mechanic's parking lot for 5 days. They finally got it into the bay for diagnostics and said it was possibly a fuel delivery issue, but couldn't tell for sure. Could this problem have anything to do with the timing belt change? It ran great for roughly 170 miles.
 

BigAndy

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Northern BC
TDI
99 A3
It could be a few things -- I'm guessing your mechanic works on TDI's all the time?

Time to inspect the engine and pull the timing belt cover. My Jetta has 'popped' a couple times when I was dealing with loose boost hoses and they would make a muffled 'pop' when they came off and of course, the car would loose power. Maybe that happened to you? Just trying to thing of things that could happen after t-belt change to even the best mechanics out there.
 
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Little Jack

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2001
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado
TDI
Golf GL Reflex Silver 2001
I used to go to Steve Carrol in Aurora, but now I have a local guy that seems to know what he's doing. He does have a 98 Jetta TDI. The front desk guy is saying that all vacuum hoses are connected and the turbo is ok. He says the problem is most likely the fuel delivery system. I asked if it could be a relay 109 problem. He told me he'd ask the mechanic.
 

vandermic07

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Location
West Central Pennsylvania
TDI
01 Golf 5 spd, 03 Jetta Wagon
Sounds like you popped a intake pipe. I had it happen on my way to work. made a pop and started smoking really bad. bottom of intercooler blew off going up a hill. It was like someone hit the brakes.

I would suspect the mechanic might not have gotten a pipe all the way seated on the IC and it blew off under boost. I had that happen to after working on car myself. They do take the lower and upper intake off to do the timing belt. Also the upper has a very tight squeeze on the outlet of the IC. Very hard to put on and hard to see as well.

Hopefully its this, very easy fix.
 

Little Jack

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2001
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado
TDI
Golf GL Reflex Silver 2001
Sounds like you popped a intake pipe. I had it happen on my way to work. made a pop and started smoking really bad. bottom of intercooler blew off going up a hill. It was like someone hit the brakes.

I would suspect the mechanic might not have gotten a pipe all the way seated on the IC and it blew off under boost. I had that happen to after working on car myself. They do take the lower and upper intake off to do the timing belt. Also the upper has a very tight squeeze on the outlet of the IC. Very hard to put on and hard to see as well.

Hopefully its this, very easy fix.
There was no smoke as far as I could tell. I was working at keeping my family safe and the car moving forward to pay much attention to the rear view mirror. The car just gradually died. I checked on my car after the tow and found the engine compartment very clean as usual.
 

BigAndy

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Northern BC
TDI
99 A3
"said it was possibly a fuel delivery issue"

Any idea how they came to this conclusion? Can you ask them what codes came up?
 

Problypropylene

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2017
Location
Grand Junction, Colorado
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon TDI 5-speed manual, '03 Jetta Wagon TDI auto
Does the car start? It's hard for me to imagine that it would be that difficult to diagnose. I'd pull the timing belt cover off and check the belt and tensioner out before starting it up. Also like everyone has said, check that all the intake connections are solid. I've heard that when the turbo blows it can also make a pop sound. I'd pull the hose off the turbo inlet and check that turbo is spinning freely and doesn't have excessive play. You may have excessive oil and metal bits in the tube between turbo and intercooler if it blew (though some oil is normal, so don't be shocked if a few cap-fulls pour out.)


The only thing that has ever made any of my TDI's shut down completely (and not just go into limp mode) was a bad anti-shudder valve. I'm not sure if that would make a pop sound, but worth checking out.
 

Little Jack

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2001
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado
TDI
Golf GL Reflex Silver 2001
I called the shop to ask the status of my car and they told me the belt tensioner they installed that I gave them failed. I purchased the kit from one of the popular vendors here on the TDIclub. Since the failure was caused by a part I provided, I am liable for the cost of the repair to the head and any other ancillary damage.
 

Problypropylene

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2017
Location
Grand Junction, Colorado
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon TDI 5-speed manual, '03 Jetta Wagon TDI auto
I called the shop to ask the status of my car and they told me the belt tensioner they installed that I gave them failed. I purchased the kit from one of the popular vendors here on the TDIclub. Since the failure was caused by a part I provided, I am liable for the cost of the repair to the head and any other ancillary damage.
Man, sorry to hear that. My internet guess is it wasn't installed properly. The Litens/INA tensioner is surely what was in that kit, and those are the high quality standard... I'm pretty sure that's what the dealerships sell you as well.
 

BigAndy

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Northern BC
TDI
99 A3
As previously said - the tensioner doesn't fail unless installed incorrectly. Get the tensioner back from them - there is a metal tab that extends from the back - that tab fits into a slot facing the engine block.

I will almost guarantee that tab is bent. That indicates it wasn't installed properly and never was put into that slot. When that occurs, the tensioner cannot hold tension.

The next possibility is that it wasn't tensioned properly thereafter.
 

STDOUBT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Location
Portland, effing Oregon
TDI
dos jettas
x2^^
So far, I haven't heard specifically that the whole charge air tract was carefully inspected.
That would be my first move. AFAIK, the fuel system doesn't make "pop" sounds under any
conditions. The boost pipe for sure will. The engine won't appear abnormal at all if one or more
pipes come loose on the underside. There will be no oil mess either, even if the IC-> rubber elbow flattop pops off the IC. Ask me how I know ;-)
I frankly smell a lot of "IDK what the____ I'm doing" coming off this mechanic.
Thank God the Fam's good. Sorry for the troubles.
 
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Little Jack

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2001
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado
TDI
Golf GL Reflex Silver 2001
As previously said - the tensioner doesn't fail unless installed incorrectly. Get the tensioner back from them - there is a metal tab that extends from the back - that tab fits into a slot facing the engine block.
I will almost guarantee that tab is bent. That indicates it wasn't installed properly and never was put into that slot. When that occurs, the tensioner cannot hold tension.
The next possibility is that it wasn't tensioned properly thereafter.
Thanks BigAndy. I will drive there on Monday and ask to inspect the tensioner. I am sure they will try like hell not to be held accountable, if they indeed are. I am left with the option of either having them do the rebuild or take it elsewhere.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
I'm glad that your family was ok and you made it off the road safely. Bummer about your car though.

The other thing that can happen is that the tensioner can be tensioned forward or backward. Correct they live for the life of the belt and then some. Incorrect, not very long. I did a co-workers repair after the dealer did his timing belt and tensioned it the wrong way. His made is 8k miles I think and the dealer said too bad, so sad, we'll eff it up again if you'd like. So even if the tab isn't bent from not being in the hole, it could have been tensioned incorrectly or the tab can go in the wrong hole too.

One of those "German" things where they assume the person doing the job knows what they're doing instead of making it idiot resistant and allowing it to tension only one way or only having one possible hole/tab to catch on.
 

Problypropylene

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2017
Location
Grand Junction, Colorado
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon TDI 5-speed manual, '03 Jetta Wagon TDI auto
Thanks BigAndy. I will drive there on Monday and ask to inspect the tensioner. I am sure they will try like hell not to be held accountable, if they indeed are. I am left with the option of either having them do the rebuild or take it elsewhere.
No way in hell I'd let them touch your car again. If they refuse to take responsibility and blame the part I'd contact Litens about a warranty claim. You didn't install the part yourself, so it's one or the other that is responsible (It's the mechanic who did the work!)

I'd be happy to give you a hand, but I live outside of Denver, am not a full time mechanic, don't have a shop or even a garage. I've done 5? ALH timing belt installs at this point though without any issues and have all the tools for that, including a VCDS.

It sounds like this is your daily driver and you need to get it back on the road asap, so a real shop is probably what you need. I know it's a long drive but I've only heard good things about Anthuee at Diesel Land up in Boulder. The previous owner of my car had him do all the work on it and it's the best running ALH I've had so far.
 
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STDOUBT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Location
Portland, effing Oregon
TDI
dos jettas
These guys have no website listed so not sure if they're still working
European Performance Specialist
406 S. Sierra Madre St
Colorado Springs, CO 80903
(719) 475-1046, Loren
Also this guy was on the Trusted list, at Frey's, still wrenching privately:
http://freysforeign.com/
Good Luck!
 
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Little Jack

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2001
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado
TDI
Golf GL Reflex Silver 2001
Thanks guys. I'm coming to the realization that another shop should do the motor rebuild. The hassle factor of assigning blame to this catastrophe is more than I want to deal with. What really is upsetting is the fact they didn't tell me yesterday so I could have today to deal with it. Now I have to wait until Monday when they're open so I can have it towed to European Performance Specialists.

When this kind of thing happens, is it just the head or are the pistons Involved as well? Generally, how expensive can this be? I'm thankful I can still walk and have a bicycle.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
It's usually just the cylinder head, but you really won't know until you get it apart.

How expensive CAN it be :)?

I'd say bare minimum would be $1500 given that I'm guessing that you're having someone else doing the work. Practically I'm guessing $2000-$2500

If it's just the head, you get get a new one for about $1k + $250 for another timing belt kit + labor and misc materials to install (coolant, oil change, etc)

There are also options to rebuild the head from various sources. Any competent machine shop can do this work and the valves/guides/seals are not particularly expensive - Looks like they've assembled a kit for $425 which is everything but the cylinder head itself. This is the route that I took, but I have access to all the machine work for cutting seats, installing/reaming guides, grinding valves, etc. Click on "Rebuilt Head" in my signature for details.

If you get the cylinder head off and there's a destroyed piston, or the rods are kinked (measure piston protrusion), your best bet is probably to buy a used engine from the junkyard. Overall labor is probably a lot less than "rebuilding" what you already have.

Unfortunately, at some point you have to evaluate the overall value of the car before and after the repairs along with what it would cost to purchase a "new to you" car. Everyone's situation is different, but the value of these cars in the market is low enough anymore that an issue like this becomes a case where it doesn't make sense to fix it sometimes. However if you love the car and want to keep it going - this forum is the best resource to help you do that :).
 

Problypropylene

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2017
Location
Grand Junction, Colorado
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon TDI 5-speed manual, '03 Jetta Wagon TDI auto
Thanks guys. I'm coming to the realization that another shop should do the motor rebuild. The hassle factor of assigning blame to this catastrophe is more than I want to deal with. What really is upsetting is the fact they didn't tell me yesterday so I could have today to deal with it. Now I have to wait until Monday when they're open so I can have it towed to European Performance Specialists.

When this kind of thing happens, is it just the head or are the pistons Involved as well? Generally, how expensive can this be? I'm thankful I can still walk and have a bicycle.
Usually just the valves and lifters. Probably a good idea to replace valve guides and seals, and of course you'll need a head gasket. From what I've read the parts to repair aren't all that expensive, it's just the labor of taking the head off and replacing everything. It's never happened to me luckily, so maybe someone with direct experience can chime in.

I had a valet driver smoke my clutch sooooo bad last year and it was so frustrating fighting with them (they claimed it was my car's fault and not the idiot valet guy, my only option was to take them to court and I decided I could replace the clutch myself for less money than a legal battle) and it just made my blood pressure go up and I wanted to hit things and sometimes people. It sucks to get screwed over when you know you did nothing wrong... aaaand this is why I don't let anyone touch my car and I'll never park valet again (it was for work and was free or I never would have in the first place.)

I feel for you man. In the future if you ever need help in Colorado hit me up.

Edit: As Fix_untill_broke said, it maybe a better option to install a used engine. They can be had for really cheap. Search craigslist, there is a guy in Monument that always has a pile of TDI's. You may be able to get a short block for a few hundo. Then you can keep your old engine and take your time fixing it yourself. Learn about how to work on it, and avoid this situation in the future. These engines are actually really easy to work on and the amount of DIY resources is immense. The problem with most mechanics, as I see it, is they work by the hour and there is pressure to do the job as fast as possible. If you take your time and go step by step I dare say it's enjoyable.
 
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Little Jack

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2001
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado
TDI
Golf GL Reflex Silver 2001
Thank you all for your kind and supportive words. At my age, doing more than just simple maintenance is more than I want to attempt. Until this time, it never failed me and to its credit it gave its all to get my family and me to safety. Practically speaking, as Fix Until Broke said, the cost of repair may exceed the car's value. I am attached to this little Golf, but maybe it's time to part ways. All very sad because I kept my car in top shape. There were only 2 small door dings on the driver's side fender and the paint is in great shape. All fluids, filters and belts replaced according to schedule. The interior including headliner and glovebox are all in great shape. All in all, really hard to tell it was 19 years old. So the car will live on as a salvage yard parts car. Sort of like being an organ donor.
 

300D

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Location
New England
TDI
Mk6
Thank you all for your kind and supportive words. At my age, doing more than just simple maintenance is more than I want to attempt. Until this time, it never failed me and to its credit it gave its all to get my family and me to safety. Practically speaking, as Fix Until Broke said, the cost of repair may exceed the car's value. I am attached to this little Golf, but maybe it's time to part ways. All very sad because I kept my car in top shape. There were only 2 small door dings on the driver's side fender and the paint is in great shape. All fluids, filters and belts replaced according to schedule. The interior including headliner and glovebox are all in great shape. All in all, really hard to tell it was 19 years old. So the car will live on as a salvage yard parts car. Sort of like being an organ donor.

I think the repair vs junk value equation is an interesting, but more complex than usual equation with these cars. The simple version is what is the value of the car when running, and how much is the repair? When the cost of repair exceeds the value, then don’t do the repair. That’s the normal route to go. But I would argue that there is more to it than that. How much will a new-to-you car cost vs how much is the repair to this one? These aren’t cars that suffer complete degradation over time so it’s not worth fixing the big things because the rest of the car is falling apart. (See Subarus over 150k) Spend 3-4K getting a completely redone used engine (high estimate) installed and you will have a great car for quite a long time more. Can you get a good solid known car on the used market for 3-4K? Probably not. Even buying one of our cars, which would be in that range, you will get a whole lot of unknowns and have to spend time and money sorting them out.

If the rest of the car is in excellent shape, repair and enjoy for at least another ten years. That to me is good value.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
300D explained the value part better than I did. Even if you do spend $3-$4k fixing this car, that maybe better value for you than spending similar $ on a new-to-you car. If it's otherwise in great shape that might be the best path. Again, everyone's situation is different.

One thing I would suggest - Please don't sell it to the salvage yard for a hundred $ (scrap car prices are $50-100/ton depending on where you are) just to have it be an organ donor or worse, get crushed when the value of recycled cars goes up again. There are likely several on this forum who would buy it from you at a more fair value and potentially fix it.

The main difference is the cost of labor. It might be just the cylinder head, but it will cost you a few hundred in labor + towing to another shop just to figure that out, so the used engine becomes even more practical from the start. However what might cost you $3-$4k in parts + labor for an engine swap might only cost someone else $3-$400 in parts only because they're not working for a profit and have access to the tools/equipment/shop space to do the repairs.

I'm not trying to be a vulture here, just presenting options that might be a better value for your financials, your car and this fine community of people who keep these cars going.
 

Little Jack

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2001
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado
TDI
Golf GL Reflex Silver 2001
You are right, there is no way I could find a better car than mine for $4000.00. So then fixing my car would make better sense. It all boils down to, can the car be fixed correctly. The mechanic I went to for the belt change had done some very good work for me. Before I retired, I did quite a bit of stop and go driving, which necessitated an early clutch job that was perfectly done. My starter motor was making a funny noise after the engine kicked over. He took it apart and clean it, which stopped the noise. He dropped and replenished my transmission fluid, anti freeze, brake and clutch fluid. He replaced the lower control arm bushing and the right side axle seal to the transmission. I always thought he was a good ethical mechanic. Apparently he installed the belt tensioner incorrectly and that caused the catastrophic damage. We're all human and stuff happens. Seems to me the front desk guy does not want his shop to pay for the entire repair. From his point of view, he wants to blame the parts I brought them to use for the failure. His parting statement to me was that we would talk on Monday and work something out.

In this scenario, my choices are either to work out a deal with this fellow or take the car to someone else for the repair. In either case I have to trust my life on the work being done correctly and hope for the best. Again, stuff happens.

Another option would be to sell it to some do it yourselfer that could bring it back to life to their own satisfaction. Life is a big crap shoot. Roll the dice.
 

Nerdkiller

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Location
Price, Utah
TDI
98 Beetle TDI
☹

You need to see what the damage is before you make any decisions.
Maybe you will be very lucky and it can be fixed cheaply. Also if it is only the cylinder head, brand new cylinder heads are very cheap.
My point is, yes the value of the car is low because of age, but the cost of a car to replace this car will be more. Also you never know what problems a different car may have.
I speak from experience. I had a 1998 jetta Mark III that I purchased brand new. The 1998 jetta was the best car I have ever owned or known of.
I did almost all the work on the Jetta. No major problems, great fuel mileage, amazing performance. Then the car was totaled in an accident. ☹
I purchased a 1998 beetle alh to replace the Jetta. The beetle has had many problems. Most people do not maintain their cars. Most people only fix things if absolutely necessary. Then these same people go to mechanics that do not know what they are doing to save a few dollars.
If your car has no rust, no body damage, then fix it. It sounds like a great car, you know it’s history.
Rust is very difficult to resolve.
Your car has low miles. You can easily go 300,000 miles in your car. I would keep the car and see what you can do to get 50 miles per gallon. I get 45 mpg in the beetle with a bigger turbo and injectors.
These cars are great!!! That is why this forum exists. Use this forum’s information and make this car better than it was brand new.
This forum is why I bought another Volkswagen diesel to replace my other Volkswagen diesel.
I consistently see 20 year old cars like yours go for 4,000 dollars if they are clean, rust free, nothing broken. It sounds like your car is like this.
 
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BigAndy

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2002
Location
Northern BC
TDI
99 A3
I would want to see the tensioner that failed, then I would want to pull the head and have a look. Whether they pull the head or you have another shop do it - you can then make an informed decision to repair or sell.



I had a timing belt fail once and I got lucky and had to replace 4 valves. It ain't over till it's over ;)
 

csstevej

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Location
north nj
TDI
2001 golf tdi 4 door auto now a manual, mine, 2000 golf 2 door M/T son's,daughters 98 NB non-TDI 2.0, 2003 TDI NB for next daughter, head repaired and on road,gluten for punishment got another tdi 2001NB,another yellow tdi NB
Don’t give up the ship yet.
I purchased my youngest ones car off craigslist that had a “ fender bender”, had 120,xxx miles on it.
Add said runs fine, it was at a salvage yard that listed it.
Went down with my youngest daughter with a a spare license plate and inspected the car.
It was a 2003 NB 5 speed in very good condition, except where he kissed a wall on the passenger front corner.

Car refused to start even while the yard said that they just moved it this morning (ahh BS ).
After pooping the TB cover I found that the TB was loose.and jumped time.

After arguing over the price ( which he said he could make more parting it out, I agreed but told him motor was trashed ) he sold me the car for $1100.00 , a lot lower than he was asking. I slapped a plate on the car ,called AAA and had them come and tow car home, said car was in an accident.

When I got the car home I pulled the head and sure enough two lifters were trashed, piston protrusion was within spec so bottom of motor was good. I did pull the oil pan to clean up the oil pump screen and fish for any pieces of metal from the lifters.

I found a used head that I took apart to clean up and inspect the valves and races and relap the valves to seat area and reinstalled head with new TB , 2” lift egr delete and a dynamic tune.
I also had to replace the whole front clip ( lh,Rh fenders and front ), intercooler, passenger air bag , drivers seatbelt and airbag controller. I know sounds like a lot but it was probably a total of $2000.00 in parts.

So for a little above $3000.00 she has a car that I went through and trust. I couldn’t find another car that compares with this.
I got this car for when she was 16 yrs old, she now is 22 yrs old and still drives the car. Car has a little over 189,xxx miles on it now. It’s never left her stranded, don’t get me wrong it still has issues from time to time but so does any car.

I own 5 MK IV’s TDI ‘s the youngest car has 189.xxx miles ( my youngest daughter ) to mine which had 432,xxx miles on it, all are 5 speed’s.
I’m not tooting my horn but this make and model car I don’t think you can beat for the price.
It’s modern enough but not overly complicated with being computer controlled for everything. It’s simple to work on.
I also understand that not everyone can work on their cars or have the ability, but if you do need to move on please don’t scrap it as mentioned above, you can get a better price from someone who will put the work into the car themselves and have a great vehicle for years to come..... I’m off my soap box ...... and just my .002.
 
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