PD Fuel lift pump relay??

Does anyone know which relay controls the lift pump (in-tank) on a 04 jetta pd? Its not fuel pump relay 409 on page 97-4 of the bentley. As there is a relay # 103 in this position and it doesnt seem to control the lift pump......Thank you.

J17, page 81/13.

But I do not know where it is physically mounted. I do not have my bentley right now.

Lift pump working!!!!!

I finally found that page in the bentley also. I also cannot figure out were that relay is... The good news is though that i noticed in the diagram that there is a fuse in line with that relay, #28. I went into the fuse box and found out my fuse 28 (15amp) was not there. As it turns out i have been driving my car for more than 2 years and 60,000 miles without the lift pump. Now I have a new one that im not sure i needed. It turns out the reason the car wouldnt start after this particular fuel filter change was that I didnt replace the O rings and didnt get the filter completely full with see foam.
The other times i have changed the fuel filter I was more carefull and complete. I didnt have a good seal on the t valve. I noticed it leaks after the car immediatly started WITH the lift pump working........It still would be nice to know were relay j17 is for future reference. Thank you for your time and the reply.

It is in position 10 of the relay plate (right in the middle) and marked 167.

evivant said:

I finally found that page in the bentley also. I also cannot figure out were that relay is... The good news is though that i noticed in the diagram that there is a fuse in line with that relay, #28. I went into the fuse box and found out my fuse 28 (15amp) was not there. As it turns out i have been driving my car for more than 2 years and 60,000 miles without the lift pump. Now I have a new one that im not sure i needed. It turns out the reason the car wouldnt start after this particular fuel filter change was that I didnt replace the O rings and didnt get the filter completely full with see foam.
The other times i have changed the fuel filter I was more carefull and complete. I didnt have a good seal on the t valve. I noticed it leaks after the car immediatly started WITH the lift pump working........It still would be nice to know were relay j17 is for future reference. Thank you for your time and the reply.

Click to expand...

We found a similar case in a 2006 Jetta at the last Asheville GTG. No lift pump fuse had ever been installed.

Thanks MOGolf, for the location. I could not remember off the top of my head.

I know this thread is pretty old and this may have been covered some where else. Something funny, well maybe not so funny but cool!

A friend who just bought a 2004 tdi with 130k had some starting issues with his car. He was not sure what had been maintained properly on this car so we thought maybe intake flap? Nope that wasn't it! Maybe lift pump? Well, wouldn't know it was not working, damn things.
Had him pull line off filter and cycle key to check pump and filter and nothing.. Had him listen to the pump with lid off, nothing... I had him check the voltage while cycling the key and well, NOTHING, DAMN! I had no manual nor did he and I was trying to give him direction over the phone.
He said he was going to do some checking and so did I. I am about 1hr from access to pretty much all Bentley manuals for all VAG. So I looked around here and there but nothing too interesting except few posts about fuse 28 being the fuse for the pump and that the folks who looked for it like the fellow above did not have one but a few dismissed it!

Anyway he calls back, this guy is slicker than cat crap, and tells me he found the relay and that it is working but there is no voltage after it, hmmm. Gotta be a fuse!!!!! He did more digging and found the fuse that should control the pump is not there! I looked at my car and mine was. I tld him to put it in and let it fly! Well, it did! Pump made noise, had voltage and shot fuel all over the engine bay. Is this common or some weird VAG anomaly? It makes you wonder how many folks are riding like this?

He just called and said this thing is running better now than it ever had!

There are many cases where people have pulled fuses to check them and not put them back in the right place. Then they ask "What's wrong with my car?" Reads like the former owner was the guilty party.

So I have a the fuse (always have) for my 2005 golf TDI and am having some relay issues. MOgolf you said the relay is #167? I don't seem to have a 167. I have: 377, 175, 103, 109, 100, 53, 173. I can't find the number listed anywhere in the bently.

Anyone please help!!!

Look at your Bentley, find relay position #10. What relay # is in that position?

I ordered 2 #109's thinking it might be that, I haven't checked the number on it, but am heading out soon to go try that out. Hopefully this is the issue.

Thanks Dan.

choppe3 said:

So I have a the fuse (always have) for my 2005 golf TDI and am having some relay issues. MOgolf you said the relay is #167? I don't seem to have a 167. I have: 377, 175, 103, 109, 100, 53, 173. I can't find the number listed anywhere in the bently.

Anyone please help!!!

Click to expand...

My Bentley states it is in position #4 (relay 409) on the main relay panel and just states "fuel pump relay". I assume this is for the BEW engine, but this may be a generic diagram for the relays for the A4.

My Bentley also states there is an "Thirteenfold Auxilary Relay Panel" just above the main relay panel that looks similar to the main panel. Both of these panels have a few of the relay numbers you list, but not all of them. Odd.

--Nate

I am pretty sure it is relay 109.

nocebl said:

I am pretty sure it is relay 109.

Click to expand...

Relay 109 is the main relay there, but is not the lift pump relay.

delvi__acevedo said:

Relay 109 is the main relay there, but is not the lift pump relay.

Click to expand...

Can you please tell me what is the purpose of relay 109?
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1972344&postcount=2

As the post you refer to indicates, 'relay 109' is the main power relay for much of the car.

One key indicator is the check glow plug symbol coming on for a half second or so when you turn the key on. If this does not happen it is likely that relay 109 is not providing power to your ECU and other key engine devices.

The typical relay 109 failure symptoms are:
No glow plug light for half a second.
Car cranks normally but will not fire.

The ECU enables the fuel pump, so it will not run either, if the 109 relay is bad - but that is only a symptom of the 109 relay failure.

The fuel pump has its own relay that is operated by the ECU to run the fuel pump. If everything else works, but you are not getting power to the fuel pump, then this is a potential source of the problem, as is the fuse and the wiring.

By far the most common failure of the lift pump system is the lift pump itself. The brushes and commutator wear completely out in the small internal electric motor. You can sometimes get it to run momentarily by slapping the bottom of the fuel tank, which vibrates the brushes into a better conductive position - this might get you home or to the shop.

2005 PD BEW J17 fuel pump relay position 10 aux relay panel

As far as relays go.

My 2005 BEW PD has a relay in the main lower relay panel in position #4, marked 103, which Bentley says is the fuel pump relay - but it is NOT the fuel pump relay on my car. Pulling this relay has no impact on the fuel pump - it will continue to run.

On my car there is a relay in position 10 on the upper auxiliary relay panel, marked #53, which is J17, the fuel pump relay for my car. When I pull this relay, or pull fuse #28, the lift pump does not work.

So, as usual MOGolf is correct in his post above, it is position #10, right in the middle. In usual VW fashion they sometimes use different relays - different numbers painted on the outside - for the same function. The one MOGOLF saw had relay #167, mine has relay #53.

so the relay location #'s are correct in this drawing, but not the legend on the left - for my car.

I have found the Bentley manual sadly lacking in proper updates for the PD engine electrical system, and in the scan tool section. My manual had editorial closing Dec 1, 2004. Though I must confess I have not sent technical corrections or errata in to them, so I guess I have not been part of the solution.

According to my Bentley wiring diagram, Fuse 28 in the fuse block near the driver's door is the main pump power fuse and is 15 amps. It feeds power to the large contacts on the power supply side of the fuel pump relay.

The fuel pump relay coil gets ground (is switched via) through the ECU (ECU terminal T94/52) to activate the fuel pump (pull in the fuel pump relay contacts) and the positive power for the relay coil comes from the "power supply relay" on the "aux. thirteenth relay panel", above the main relay panel, terminal marked 6/87. This is relay (position #12) is the famous Relay 109 and it gets its pull-in coil grounding from the ECU, terminal #T94/49 and both its coil positive power and its main contact positive power from terminal 7/30 on the load reduction relay, which is relay (18/100) in position #2 on the main relay panel.

So you have three relays in series on this sucker!

--Nate

DanG144 writes:
"On my car there is a relay in position 10 on the upper auxiliary relay panel, marked #53, which is J17, the fuel pump relay for my car."

Well, the Bentley wiring diagram shows for the 1.9 liter BEW, right on the diagram relay J17 as the fuel pump relay. Why elswhere in my Bentley manual the "component location diagram" under the "relay panel" section shows the fuel pump relay as Relay #409 (in position #4 on the main relay panel), I have no idea.

Position 10 on the Aux. relay panel, acording to my Bentley, is the glow plug relay.

I have known the Bentley manual to be very inconsistent in the past.


--Nate

Nate,
I have no idea either.
But I tested it again this morning.
The relay in position #4 of the main (lower) relay panel, when pulled, does not stop the fuel pump from running.
The relay in position #10 of the auxiliar (upper) relay panel is definitely the fuel pump relay for my car. When I pull it the fuel pump does not run. When I put it in, it does run.

My Bentley has the same information as yours. It is wrong.

The glow plug relays for our cars are really up in the windshield plenum.

Dan:

I've discovered that the Bentley manual is wrong about quite a few things and omits things in different places and in other places has different values for the same thing (like fastner torque values). I still have never gotten a definitive answer about replacing the inner CV joint bolts after using (the 8 mm tripple square ones). My Bentley does not stipulate to replace them, but other Bentley manuals for VWs do

--Nate

I went to use Lubro Moly Diesel Purge tonight and ran into this issue. I have a Bentley manual also. Page 97-773 which is supposed to be for a 1.9 L BEW engine from May 2003 on auto trans directs to diagram 82/13 for the fuel pump. Diagram 82/13 shows fuse 28 (15 amp) feeding a relay J17. Well I pulled that fuse and ended up with a mess; this is the wrong fuse! Please someone find out what the right fuse # is and post it. I think the 15 amp fuse 28 is for gas engine fuel pumps.

Doh! I feel dumb now. The bottom row of fuses was covered up by a piece of electrical tape so I was off 1 row. Fuse 28 was the right fuse, it is the 3rd one up from the bottom left corner. I had pulled the rear wiper motor fuse instead of the lift pump fuse.

In the beginning of chapter 97 Bentley manual it does say fuse #28 is for gasoline engine fuel pumps, which sort of implies that it is not used for diesel engines, but for the BEW PD engine #28 is still the right fuse.

Will a 2006 BRM TDI Jetta run still, if the in tank fuel pump is not working?? Thank-you.

My Bentley manual, Page 97-4 shows relay position, upper panel, as a glow plug relay. I know this can't be true because the gp relay resides under the plastic cowl cover at the bottom of the windshield. Bentley also says that fuse #28 is for the fuel pump on gas cars. I'll have to look at the actual wiring diagrams and see is any of this is true.

I do not know for sure on the 2006 BRM and later pumps, if the engine can still run.
I have never had to replace one, yet.
So I have not had one to tear into.

JB05 said:

My Bentley manual, Page 97-4 shows relay position, upper panel, as a glow plug relay. I know this can't be true because the gp relay resides under the plastic cowl cover at the bottom of the windshield. Bentley also says that fuse #28 is for the fuel pump on gas cars. I'll have to look at the actual wiring diagrams and see is any of this is true.

Click to expand...

Bentley is all screwed up about this. I do not trust where they say relays are. Bentley states the TDI glow plug relay is on the relay panel above the pedals (its under the windshield cowling). Go figure.

--Nate

I seem to remember pulling fuse 28 on my BEW and it preventing the fuel pump from operating.

I also seem to remember pulling the relay in position 10 and that also stopping the fuel pump on my BEW.

There is probably a post of mine somewhere about it.

DanG144 said:

I seem to remember pulling fuse 28 on my BEW and it preventing the fuel pump from operating.

I also seem to remember pulling the relay in position 10 and that also stopping the fuel pump on my BEW.

There is probably a post of mine somewhere about it.

Click to expand...

After reading all the........ this is it......... no its not its this........ no its really this........ etc. in this thread Im allllllll confused lol.

anyway this last post seems to have marked the final the decisions of "what" in the formula of "What and Where" (28 fuse and Relay 10)

So now lets clarify the WHERE portion of this formula

. 28 fuse...... ok open the door and remove fuse panel door flap then?? (but rest should be self explanatory)

. Relay 10.... ok....... its central of the relay panel got that....... but where is this panel? Some say tucked in area of steering column while others mentioned under windshiled cowl??? So which is it or is this a different description for the same location?
.

ok........ guess this fuse part is NOT self explanatory after all.

where the hell is fuse for TDI fuel pump (28?). according to diagram I found it is 3rd from bottom on the left. Well on my 2000 Golf TDI that is an empty slot with no contacts for a fuse.

Found this in another thread. Obviously #28 is wrong still buttt...... check out the bottom part of list that says the glowplug relay is also fuel pump relay. Or is that saying it is fuel pump on gassers and glow plug on diesels???

Rxfire said:

MKIV FUSE LIST
1. Washer nozzle heaters, glove compartment light, memory seat control module (10A).
2. Turn signal lights (10A).
3. Fog light relay, instrument panel light dimmer switch (5A).
4. License plate light (5A).
5. Comfort system, cruise control, Climatronic, A/C, heated seat control modules, automatic day/night interior mirror, control module for multi-function steering wheel, control unit in steering wheel (7.5A).
6. Central locking system (5A).
7. Back-up lights, speedometer vehicle speed sensor (VSS) (10A).
8. Open
9. Anti-lock brake system (ABS) (5A).
10. Engine control module (ECM): gasoline engine (10A); diesel engine, Model Year 2000 > (5A).
11. Instrument cluster, shift lock solenoid (5A).
12. Data Link Connector (DLC) power supply (7.5A).
13. Brake tail lights (10A).
14. Interior lights, central locking system (10A).
15. Instrument cluster, transmission control module (TCM) (5A).
16. A/C clutch, after-run coolant pump (10A).
17. Open.
18. Headlight high beam, right (10A).
19. Headlight high beam, left (10A).
20. Headlight low beam, right (15A).
21. Headlight low beam, left (15A).
22. Parking lights right, side marker right (5A).
23. Parking lights left, side marker left (5A).
24. Windshield and rear window washer pump, windshield wiper motor (20A).
25. Fresh air blower, Climatronic, A/C (25A).
26. Rear window defogger (25A).
27. Motor for rear windshield wiper (15A).
28. Fuel pump (FP) (15A).
29. Engine control module (ECM) gasoline engine (15A); diesel engine (10A).
30. Power sunroof control module (20A).
31. Transmission control module (TCM) (20A).
32. Injectors: gasoline engine (10A); diesel engine (15A).
33. Headlight washer system (20A).
34. Engine control elements (10A).
35. 12 V power outlet (in luggage compartment) (30A).
36. Fog lights (15A).
37. Terminal (86S) on radio, Instrument cluster (10A).
38. Central locking system (with power windows), luggage compartment light, remote/fuel tank door, motor to unlock rear lid (15A).
39. Emergency flashers (15A).
40. Dual tone horn (20A).
41. Cigarette lighter (15A).
42. Radio (25A).
43. Engine control elements (10A).
44. Heated seats (15A).

Fuse arangements in fuse bracket/battery:
S162. Glow plugs (coolant) (50A).
S163. Fuel pump (FP) relay/glow plug relay (50A).
S164. Coolant fan control (FC) control module/coolant fan (40A).
S176. Relays panel interior (110A).
S177. Generator (GEN) (90 Amp.) (110A).
Generator (GEN) (120 Amp.) (150A).
S178. ABS (hydraulic pump) (30A).
S179. ABS (30A).
S180. Coolant fan (30A).

Click to expand...