1.2L TDI Honda Insight

Just completed a 1.2L TDI install in a 2000 Honda Insight on Friday (17JUL09). As I suspected, the Insight is a much better car with diesel power. The jury is still out on fuel mileage but 100 mpg doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility. Take a look at www.redlightracing.org for build details. More pictures of the completed car and associated components should be added soon. Youtube video is in the works. Only so much time in the day.
Best wishes,
Jake

Jake,

Wow! Now go into business selling these conversions.

I predict real world mpg's of 88-96 depending on driving cycle and style.


Best of luck!! I can't wait for the youtube vids.

Godspeed and good luck. Fabulous concept. I hope you win the prize.

I was soo going to do this a few years ago! glad to see someone else has. Can you give us more info on the technological hurdles... like how you regeared the tranny for the diesel and what you did about the ecu for the tranny/ car vs the ecu for the diesel? how did you get everything to play nice!? PS upgrade your batteries 150mpg should not phase you with a good driver and some programming on the system!

Insight 1G at idle

Just threw a YouTube video up. I'll post a few more as I get some miles on the car. Coast-to-coast journey coming up in a little over a week should give plenty of opportunity. In the meantime:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgELfyYsxyM.

Best wishes,
Jake

Gearing and sundries

"I was soo going to do this a few years ago! glad to see someone else has. Can you give us more info on the technological hurdles... like how you regeared the tranny for the diesel and what you did about the ecu for the tranny/ car vs the ecu for the diesel? how did you get everything to play nice!? "

1. Tranny gearing
I decided against this. The Insight ratios are close enough to the Lupo 3L ratios to not warrant the trouble of tinkering based on a limited budget. After driving the car, it could pull a longer axle ratio without a problem. Something to consider if the car isn't making the nut.

2. ECU love
My strategy was to run the Honda ECU and VW ECU in parallel. The Honda ECU is way too woven into the hybrid features of the car to eliminate it unless you've got deep pockets or have the right automotive systems controller development connections. I do not.

Believe it or not, we used a 4 channel digital potentiometer, an RS-232 chip, and a hacked surveillance camera controller as the basis for our "translator." The basic idea is to translate German into Japanese. Using the above components and a relatively straight forward program, the VW engine appears to be a Honda engine to the Honda ECU--or that's the theory.

I smoke checked the 4 channel pot and RS-232 by putting power to ground. Dumb mistake. Never wire late into the night. Even so, the car starts the VW engine and it runs fine although the electric side is pissed. After we receive a shipment of integrated circuits I'm certain we'll have the Diesel and electric sides playing nice with one another. From there minor tweaking will be required to eliminate nuisance items (faulty check engine light etc.).

3. Different batteries
People are working on this. Something to consider. The battery system is quite complex. Thermal and charge state management are the biggest hurdles. I'll probably stay away from this one until others burn through a pile of cash to field something solid and functional.

4. Other sundries
There are plenty of other technical difficulties in this build. I'd be happy to address specific questions as they arise and provide help where necessary. It'd be nice to see a bunch of cars built.

Boat drinks,
Jake

Wow, this is the most interesting thread in a while! Thank you for your contribution, Jake! There was a discussion a while ago at TDIClub about what type of vehicle and powertrain would it take for a competitive entry in the Automotive X-Prize. I wish you all the best!!

I just got home and started looking through some of the pictures you sent out. That is a crazy adapter setup. I'm really impressed with how you got it all to come together like that. I can only imagine how you must be grinning from ear to ear since you're finally able to drive it after all this time.

jpstaub said:

Just completed a 1.2L TDI install in a 2000 Honda Insight on Friday (17JUL09). As I suspected, the Insight is a much better car with diesel power. The jury is still out on fuel mileage but 100 mpg doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility. Take a look at www.redlightracing.org for build details. More pictures of the completed car and associated components should be added soon. Youtube video is in the works. Only so much time in the day.
Best wishes,
Jake

Click to expand...

Amazing!!

I saw this 1.4 come up for sale on vwvortex
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4470026

Really had the old gears turning!

Jake,

Thanks for the info. I figured that is what you ended up doing. Can you go into more details on what you are sending for info between the ecus?

I would be very grateful to see more pictures and maybe to see this thing in person. I honestly feel 150mpg should be cake with hyper-mpg techniques. It also sounds like there may be a few options to optimize the ecus to get the system to provide the best service.

I am not a 100 percent sure on the 1.2l motor but what a lot of us have found that around 2k-2.2k RPM is the proper rpm for setting high mileage records. I have a feeling the honda ecu is not designed to switch over for the right rpm level for that diesel motor. Being able to maybe increase the rpm (IIRC the insight swaps over at 35mph) then you might be able to increase the efficiency of the system. You might also be interested in looking into 0w-40 elf oil and a custom made oil scraper for the car. This could net some better efficiencies in the engine itself. Other modifications would get into the expensive side and may be left better of on trying to reduce rotational weight on the body itself and reducing drag in the drivetrain.


Anyways, great project! keep us posted and if you need any help with vw ecu info there is much info to be had here.

Very cool project. I hope I get to see this things sometime since you're fairly local. Thumbs up!

This is Brilliant! I had pondered this project as well but there were some obvious hurdles that looks like you have overcome. I would really like to see more details. EDIT - sorry..didn't look through your site properly..O see there are lots more detail there. Looks like a good read!

Best conversion yet, will it be for sale after you win the prize??

If you come through Colorado I would love to see it, let me know! If you need a place to stay (Aspen) or at least let me buy you a beer!

It'd be nice to see a bunch of cars built.

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I'm in for one if it comes in at the 100mpg mark. Do you think you will ever develop a kit for this conversion?

Where did you get the 1.2L TDI engine? Did you order it from Bora-Part?

If you're in town, bring that beast to TDI Fest!

Wow, impressive project. Usually the electronics are enough to stymie people from doing this.

I'm confused by one thing. Honda engines have traditionally rotated "backwards" and in transverse installations have been mounted on the "wrong" side of the car compared to how everyone else does it. Does the Insight engine/transmission use the conventional orientation and rotation direction?

GoFaster said:

I'm confused by one thing. Honda engines have traditionally rotated "backwards" and in transverse installations have been mounted on the "wrong" side of the car compared to how everyone else does it. Does the Insight engine/transmission use the conventional orientation and rotation direction?

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IIRC the Insight and the S2000 were built in the same plant and rotate the opposite of traditional Honda's.

ECU Info

shortysclimbin said:

Jake,

Thanks for the info. I figured that is what you ended up doing. Can you go into more details on what you are sending for info between the ecus?

I would be very grateful to see more pictures and maybe to see this thing in person. I honestly feel 150mpg should be cake with hyper-mpg techniques. It also sounds like there may be a few options to optimize the ecus to get the system to provide the best service.

I am not a 100 percent sure on the 1.2l motor but what a lot of us have found that around 2k-2.2k RPM is the proper rpm for setting high mileage records. I have a feeling the honda ecu is not designed to switch over for the right rpm level for that diesel motor. Being able to maybe increase the rpm (IIRC the insight swaps over at 35mph) then you might be able to increase the efficiency of the system. You might also be interested in looking into 0w-40 elf oil and a custom made oil scraper for the car. This could net some better efficiencies in the engine itself. Other modifications would get into the expensive side and may be left better of on trying to reduce rotational weight on the body itself and reducing drag in the drivetrain.

Click to expand...

It's easiest to think of the VW ECU as the provider of signals and the Honda ECU as the receiver of signals from the "Translator". The Translator serves as the electronic bridge between the two ECUs. Substantially, it takes VW formatted signals and transforms them into Honda formatted signals. The VW ECU provides: 1. Throttle position, 2. Manifold pressure, 3. Engine coolant temp, 4. Intake air temp, 5. Crank position. Without going in to how the Translator operates, the Honda ECU receives: 1. Throttle position, 2. Manifold pressure, 3. Engine coolant temp, 4. Intake air temp, 5. Crank position, 6. Cam A position, 7. Cam B position.

I can't figure out how to insert pictures within a post. Is there a good way to do it?

I would be happy to show the car to anyone who's interested in seeing it. Additionally, those that I consider proficient drivers will be invited to drive to provide thoughts and feedback about the design.

I've been transferred to the West Coast (Anacortes, WA area) so the car will spend most of its days there. No later than this Sunday (27JUL) I'll be starting a cross country journey. Plug Patuxent River, MD and Anacortes, WA into MapQuest and that's the route I'll be taking. The car will also be at The World of Speed this year to lay down a few max speed runs on the salt. I'll try to make other events with the car as they arise. Most will likely be on the West Coast.

My plan is to develop a max range chart by data logging fuel consumption rate and vehicle speed. I bet it will verify 2-2.2k RPM. Since data logging is so easy with OBD II systems, confirmation won't be much of a hassle.

By the Honda ECU not switching over at the right RPM level for the diesel engine I think you mean the electric assist won't be optimized for diesel torque characteristics. We are planning to adjust the way the electric assist operates by manipulating throttle position and manifold pressure through programming of the translator first. From there we could go to a more complex system and gain full control of the electric assist features of the vehicle: MIMA .

I'll keep the 0W40 and oil scraper in mind. Because the oil pan was originally designed for an installation angle displaced from vertical, we're going to adjust it for a 0 degree from vertical installation angle for additional ground clearance. That may be the time to implement a scraper.

Best wishes,
Jake

For sale?

fairweather said:

Best conversion yet, will it be for sale after you win the prize??

If you come through Colorado I would love to see it, let me know! If you need a place to stay (Aspen) or at least let me buy you a beer!



I'm in for one if it comes in at the 100mpg mark. Do you think you will ever develop a kit for this conversion?

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All offers for the car will be considered whether or not we win the prize. There are some pretty solid teams in the race but we'll certainly be competitive with the Insight 1G.

I'm always up for a beer. I'll keep Aspen in mind from here on out.

People have been asking about a kit. With a bit more development and time on the car I think one could be provided for a reasonable price. Some may want to purchase individual components and do the rest on their own. Part of this process is determining how much demand there is out there.

Boat drinks,
Jake

Engine supply

Nico3d3 said:

Where did you get the 1.2L TDI engine? Did you order it from Bora-Part?

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I ended up buying a Lupo 3L in Munich and had it imported by a contact after getting the Federal DOT and EPA to buy off. Before you ask, I took the thing to the crusher last Friday to keep myself out of jail. Exporting the car or destroying it was part of the deal to import it. Ridiculous really but that's the way it works.

Having the whole car was quite helpful. I was able to verify many important steps in the build which saved a lot of time and effort. Additionally, I was able to pull a bunch of other parts (fuel cooler, vacuum canister, exhaust system, etc.) that were used during the build. In the long run I'm certain that although costly, working from an entire car saved me a pile of money in the end.

Fly it like a rental,
Jake

A couple of things things ;

this is really cool , good luck with it .

And another ,

our current ridiculously over stringent emissions rules on light duty diesels make this a one off car only . All of the required after treatment crap required today to meet our stupid emissions rules likely would never work on this setup . And that is very , very sad for us all .



"0" , none , not one cubic litre of clean air is gotten today from today's emissions over regulation rules of non existent ( diesels that make up less than 0.02 % of the US fleet today ) light duty diesels in the US today !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But We all being blocked from having these extreme high mpg diesel powered models is all we get from our current light duty diesel rules is a given ..................dumb!!!!!!!

Again Good luck , I hope you show this to enough to people to maybe get the message across to all what a bad joke all the current gasoline hybrids really are . When they are compared to what a diesel can do in similar setup or even by itself .

Tail pipe trouble

rotarykid said:

All of the required after treatment crap required today to meet our stupid emissions rules likely would never work on this setup.

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This is an item I've been working on. Our vehicle must meet the Tier II Bin 5 requirement. There are some promising leads out there. As with many other parts of this build, there were significant technical problems that did not have readily apparent solutions at the outset. Given enough thought and research, I'm certain we'll be able to find and implement a system that will satisfy stringent emissions level regulations. Dr. Jim Burns has offered the use of his exhaust system to satisfy Tier II Bin 5 requirements should we need it: http://www.l3research.com/_Archive/index_old2.htm.

Aside from securing a supply of 1.2L TDI engines, there aren't many show stoppers to building more cars. Mine was substantially built in a garage in Southern Maryland by two guys with assistance from friends and acquaintances using commonly available automotive technology in about 300 hours. With pre-fabbed components, my guess is a build would take the average installer about 50 hours. The more anal guys out there would complete the thing in about 100 hours.

Best wishes,
Jake

Excellent build. I have driven a few hybrids and I have to say that when they are in golf cart mode it's kind of cool,but I hate it when people compare diesels to hybrids with fuel economy. I just tell them to wait until a diesel hybrid comes out and then compare mileage, way to take the incentive and do it yourselves. I'll be sure to pass this on to as many people as I can. Quite a few entries, good luck with the competition.

Impressive... Nice work.

I want to check this thing out, but I don't know if I can make it up there before you head out of town.

Have a great trip! Let us know if you can make it across the country on 3 tanks or less.

I'm working with a University on a high MPG 1.4L TDI project, but this 1.2L Insight has me drooling.

A diesel-only Insight has been my dream project for a while, and I'm REALLY impressed that you're keeping yours a hybrid!

Extremely kewl...best thread this year! Good luck on your mission, JP !!

this is way cool good job how quick is it.

That's cool, it's ashame the 1.2 is so rare....

Sooooper cool!

I've always thought our Insight would benefit from diesel power.

Great work on keeping it a hybrid! That MIMA system should be a big help on getting better gains from regen, etc.

Extending the battery pack capabilities would be another means of squeezing more mpg out of it. - especially in the hills.

What's your plan for the batteries?