60-90 MPH Database...

Greetings!

Some of you may remember me mentioning the creation of a database where we can store 60-90 MPH times. Well, I've done it. It's a little crude, but it gets the point across. Check it out here.

I'd like to keep this a TDI-only database for size reasons and easier management. However, I intend to add a few times from 2-liters, 1.8Ts, VR6's, and V6's (both stock and modified) to give us a few other numbers to compare to.

The times will be rank-ordered from fastest to slowest.

Please e-mail me your numbers if you wish to be included. I can find your numbers here, I suppose. But it's much easier to ensure I see them if they e-mailed to me.

Take Care,

Cool, I don't have any numbers right now but will forward them when available. Around here 90 mph will get you thrown in jail, so I will need to be careful.

-Lee

Hi,

Originally posted by Oo-v-oO:
Around here 90 mph will get you thrown in jail, so I will need to be careful.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree. I'm more comfortable with a 50-80 run. But the standard has been set...

Scott

StealthTDI,

Thanks for taking this on ! It could be a great way to get a general measure of ones performance....

As to the 60-90 being a bit high, it was ment to cover 2700-4000 rpms... 50-80 won't quite do that in 4th (and it's too high for 3rd)... Those who want to measure within the law, you might think about 45-75 in 3rd... and keep a log of those...

We also haven't considered the auto folks out there... I was talking with Pete today and he suggested we get them to test the auto locked in 3rd gear.... I don't know what mph range is for the rpm range of 2700-4000 ... maybe someone can tell me... (and maybe 3rd is too high, I don't know)...

Anyway, keep those stats coming, I'll get mine, with and without NOS (taken right before the Fest) to you shortly..

Thanks again!

Gary M

Gary,

Originally posted by Gary Miyakawa:
Those who want to measure within the law, you might think about 45-75 in 3rd... and keep a log of those...

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This sounds good. However, we lose the benefit of across the board comparison if everyone does not do it the same way.

FWIW, I can see another reason for sticking with the 60-90... TIME. The longer duration of the run leaves less room for error among those of us who are simply using the stopwatch method.

However, the 3rd gear 45-75 run reduces any advantages more aerodynamic cars have over others... especially the NB. For example, it's possible for someone to run the same 60-90 as Gary, but actually be pushing less power. I remember doing a top gear 70-100 run against Peter Pyce. Both of us were running just an Upsolute chip. We were neck-in-neck, not even an inch gained, until after 85 or 90-mph. Then, I believe, his aero advantage helped him begin to sneak ahead of me.

Stealth, are you editing the page by hand or have you created some sort of script/database to automate things?

If you're editing everything by hand, maybe one/several of us could develop something where people can login and add their own times to the database. Or, if you'd rather have everyone send times to you so that no one abuses it, we could at least separate all of the data into separate columns in a database and create a page that accesses this database so that people can easily filter the times they want to see (ie, show only times from people that have .205 injectors or do Upsolute vs Wett comparisons, etc).

Let me know if you're up for this. Maybe I can whip up something up like this (I have some Perl, PHP, and MySQL experience).

Is this to be done in 4th or 5th gear?

I'd think 5th but by Gary's rpm range it must be 4th.
I'll try both for fun, I'm willing to bet that my car is faster in 5th. I know I have a degree of intake manifold clogging left over from the P.O. or at least I did at the time I did the Epsilonian mod a little over a year ago. This probably hampers higher rpm power. I know it seems to pull much harder between 1800 - 2500 than higher up.
Outside temperature will have a big effect, too. Do we want to bother throwing that variable into the mix? A run done at below freezing should be different than the same run when it is 90 degrees. My dragstrip times showed quicker times as the temperature dropped. Then you have to consider the higher drag of studded snows, thicker transaxle oil, etc.
Never mind, too much to try to track!

-Lee

Hi,

Originally posted by AtomicDog:
Stealth, are you editing the page by hand or have you created some sort of script/database to automate things?

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm currently doing things by hand. I had considered an Excel spreadsheet. But I didn't want to screw the people that don't use Microsoft or Office products. So I'm sticking with HTML so EVERYONE can access the info. I must admit that I use MS Word to create the pages... it makes the tables MUCH easier.

I think I'm going to stick with the solo project. There will be a lull in updates from March 1st through May 1st while I'm on a counter-narcotics patrol. This is my LAST patrol before transferring. Therefore, it will be the last time that I'm unable to keep things updated. I figure if one guy can maintain the VAG-COM database (or a wheel-weights database), I should be able to handle the 60-90 Database. I just can imagine it will get that large. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Oh, I just thought of another supporting factor for doing the runs in 4th: Gear ratio. If/when I invite certain gassers to join in, having them do their runs in 4th will ensure we're all using the same gear ratio, or close to it. If I'm correct, most gassers have a 1:1 4th gear ratio. Ours is 1:0.96 which is pretty close.

Take Care,

[ January 22, 2003, 20:44: Message edited by: Stealth TDI ]

I think we need to be a little more (?) scientific here. How are you clocking 60-90, steady cruise at 60mph, floor the gas in 5th, or 4th? What altitude is testing done at? What's the incline? Temperature?

Hi,

It's been posted in other threads; but I'll stick it here in the applicable thread:

1) Set the cruise for 55-mph in 4th gear.

2) Standby to start stopwatch or begin VAG-COM logging.

3) Stomp on the go-pedal.

4) Begin your stopwatch/timing when you hit 60-mph.

5) Stop your stopwatch/timing when you hit 90-mph.

6) Hit the brakes before you get busted...

The reason for doing it this way is two-fold: First, doing it in one gear eliminates "driver skill." Second, starting the run from 55 takes turbo lag from the equation. It also makes it less likely for someone to goof up the stomp/timing issue by starting things simulaneously.

Hope that covers everything...

Scott

Scott,

I am glad you are putting that together. You might want to drop a 1/4 mile time on your page too. Some people like Gary have them, and it might help us correlate data. I would be more than happy with enought data points to drop it in a spreadsheet and see it becomes useful.

For my referenece, you should jump my VASB and 205s time to 9.65, b/c before that it was really unuseable. Too much smoke to many lights, and I did get some stutters. The present setup has none of those problems.

So you know, still no lights, and the car runs wonderfully. Thanks.

What is the criterea for Autos? Same thing but locked in 3rd?

So is the vag-com more accurate than starting a stopwatch at 60mph? The stopwatch thing has lots of room for error when starting and stopping...

I've got an Auto TDI stock (yawn) as well as a 1.8T with Upsolute that would be interesting to compare to the hopped-up TDIs.

What is the exact rpm range on a 5 speed of 60-90mph? Could we not run the same range locked in 3rd to give comparable numbers?

The other thing you can do is multiple runs (preferably in both directions on the same road) then divide the total time by the number of runs. This negates the reaction time problem with start-stop on the watch.

Originally posted by Gary Miyakawa:

We also haven't considered the auto folks out there... I was talking with Pete today and he suggested we get them to test the auto locked in 3rd gear.... I don't know what mph range is for the rpm range of 2700-4000 ... maybe someone can tell me... (and maybe 3rd is too high, I don't know)...Gary M

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

According to my calculations for the automatic in third gear or direct drive,

2700 rpm is 55.5 MPH

4000 rpm is 82.2 MPH

Using the standard 60 to 90 MPH range,

60 MPH is 2920 rpm

90 MPH is 4380 rpm

Mine will upshift from third to fourth speed (overdrive) by itself at approximately 4200 unless I lock it in third, which I haven't tried yet.

Perhaps the computer will override the lock and make it upshift?

Doesn't the computer decide where the best rpm shift-point is powerwise, and pick the correct shift-point based on that? It may be that it is faster to allow the upshift instead of letting it wind out?



[ January 23, 2003, 11:15: Message edited by: WVWSP61 ]

Hi,

Originally posted by Gary Miyakawa:
As to the 60-90 being a bit high, it was ment to cover 2700-4000 rpms... 50-80 won't quite do that in 4th (and it's too high for 3rd)... Those who want to measure within the law, you might think about 45-75 in 3rd... and keep a log of those...

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Long ago, I created a MPH vs 1000-RPM table in my log. Using this, I've calculated that a THIRD GEAR 2700-4000 RPM would be more like a 40-60 sprint. Can anyone confirm this by doing a driving experiment? I'm at work and a good way from someplace I can drive that fast.

EDIT - I'VE CREATED THE 40-65-MPH DATABASE AND UPDATED THE LINKS AND TEXT BELOW.

I've updated the database AND I've created another database for the 40-65 runs.

Anyone figure out the speeds needed for an automatic to do a 2700-4000 run while locked in third gear? What's the gear ratio of third on an auto?

Finally, the database is converted to a spreadsheet. It displays online as an HTML file. But I edit it with Excel. If anyone has pointers such as prioritizing a list of mods or whatever, feel free to e-mail me a sample. For now, the cars are listed fastest to slowest.

Oh, almost forgot... new links to the databases:

60-90-MPH Database

40-65-MPH Database

Take Care,

[ January 23, 2003, 18:42: Message edited by: Stealth TDI ]

In Texas 97 mph will get you $500 fine and for some reason they won't allow defensive driving option.

I solved problem with Valentine1
It's like a Porsche accept no substitute
(Well, except a TDI of course)

Hi,

I decided to take the freeway home. Based on my road observations, I recommend choosing 40-65-mph (indicated) as a 3rd gear test. This takes the run from 2500-rpm to 4200-rpm.

What do you guys think?

Scott

Originally posted by Stealth TDI:
Hi,

I decided to take the freeway home. Based on my road observations, I recommend choosing 40-65-mph (indicated) as a 3rd gear test. This takes the run from 2500-rpm to 4200-rpm.

What do you guys think?

Scott

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Much better & reduces the aero differences between models.

So third gear, set cruise at 35 MPH, cruise, punch it, start clock at 40, stop clock at 65? Something like that?

Originally posted by Stealth TDI:

And figure out the speeds needed for an automatic to do a 2700-4000 run while locked in third gear? What's the gear ratio of third on an auto?

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Final drive gear ratio for the automatics is 3.6186. Third speed in direct-drive, or one to one.

Using 807 revs per mile times 3.6186, we get 2920 rpm per mile or the rpms at 60 MPH, right?
Dividing 2920 by 60, we get 48.67 revs per single mile per hour.

2700 rpm is 55.5 MPH

4000 rpm is 82.2 MPH

Perhaps that type of testing would be a better test than blasting from 60 to 90 MPH where the motor is forced to rev way beyond it's peak torque and/or also having to upshift to overdrive.

Less chance of attracting the man and/or collecting those unwanted green stamps also!

Stealth, I like the 40-75 4th, 40 to 65 3rd, as I can do both test and not get arrested. thanks,

My car is stock, so I won't be doing any of this anytime soon, but I do have opinions on the speeds being used.

60-90
On the freeway- risk of getting a ticket.

40- anything-
On the freeway- get run over/cause accident...I'd rather risk getting a ticket for 90.
Off the freeway- risk of getting a ticket.

I guess we just have to choose if we'd rather have a ticket (and where we "earn" it) or risk causing an accident. I know that in some states, you can lose your license (attempted manslaughter also, but that may start at 100mph)for doing either 80+mph or 20 over the posted limit. So different people may have different consequences.

Me personally, I would chose 60-90 on the freeway over the other choices (5spd here).

As for correcting for altitude as someone mentioned, this can be done easily for n/a cars, but I'm not sure if the same method is used for turbo. But the altitude doesn't make nearly as much difference with a turbo either. I think changing from sea-level to 5,000 ft in an n/a car reduces power by about 13%, but in a turbo car, it is only a couple percent. So it isn't as large of a difference, but still measurable. Also required would be VERY local temperature and a barometer reading I believe.

Just some FFT (food for thought)

Nick

Hi,

Originally posted by snoopis:
60-90
On the freeway- risk of getting a ticket.
40- anything-
On the freeway- get run over/cause accident... Off the freeway- risk of getting a ticket.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You really need to go someplace that's not so crowded. I chose a long on ramp on an Interstate for my 60-90. Basically, I accelerated to 55, punched it, and was doing 90+ shortly after entering the highway. I would've been screwed if a cop were hiding under the overpass. But a 40-65 in third would be a piece of cake here.

Tell you what: I'll fix the spreadsheet so that 3rd gear runs are from 40-65. I highly suggest you don't do this on a crowded freeway. I'll make the third gear run the primary page, with the 60-90 run as sort of a daredevil page... I accept no responsibility for those who get burned trying to "qualify," of course.

Also, take note of the new format (should be uploaded by 7pm PST). Times measured via VAG-COM will have a (*) after them. All others assume a stopwatch was used. Also, the (*) in the HP column will indicate a dyno-proven measurement. All others will be assumed to be an estimate.

I'll get to work now...

Take Care,

Hi,

The files have been created and upload. The 40-65-mph Run is now the primary database. The 60-90-mph is a separate "daredevil" page. All disclaimers apply. Here are the links:

40-65-MPH Database

60-90-MPH Database

Have Fun and Stay Out of Trouble..

As a non-TDI reference, here's the results from my 2000 GTI 1.8T w/UP chip and ATP 3" DP/Cat:

4th gear
60-90: 8.02s

3rd gear
60-90: 6.68s

4th gear
40-65: 5.45s

3rd gear
40-65: 3.29s

Edit: Oh, and here's a dyno plot (about 209 hp at the crank):



[ January 23, 2003, 20:16: Message edited by: wolfsburg_de ]

You guys need to take your skirts off. 60-90 is not that dangerous, and as stealthtdi said, and it is exactly what I did too, find an on ramp that is nearly flat, you won't be 200 feet onto the highway before you hit 90, and then slow down. The likelyhood of getting a ticket are slim to none.

Don't you think the 3rd gear runs will be too short to be accurate? It may become more a test of how well the time did their job.

Guess I'll be out on the 24 doing 3rd gear runs this weekend.

Hi,

Originally posted by eidie2:
You guys need to take your skirts off. 60-90 is not that dangerous...

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Funny! But you must realize that not everyone lives near a 70-mph zone... or even a 65. Nor do many of our members live where the cops are too lazy to pull someone over for doing 10-over, or the courts are too liberal to make a 15-over ticket stick in court (my brother's a cop and tells me he doesn't even pull someone over unless they're doing 15-over... anything less gets dismissed). The on-ramp I used was on I-5 way past Livermore. I, too, wanted to go someplace where the road was flat, traffic was (more) scarce, and I was less likely to run into the law. I understand people's apprehensions.

Don't you think the 3rd gear runs will be too short to be accurate? It may become more a test of how well the time did their job.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree. This is why I'm using the (*) to denote VAG-COM timing. It will make the results more valid. However, I'm not sure if the sampling rate will be sufficient on a short run. Perhaps Gary or someone else who does logging can comment?

BTW, I'll do some 40-65 runs tomorrow. I did one today, but goofed. It was looking to be around 5-seconds. But I had traffic to contend with... SAFETY FIRST!

[ January 23, 2003, 20:56: Message edited by: Stealth TDI ]

I tried it tonight, but the vag-com sampling rate (at least for me) is about 1.4 seconds. Also with an auto this seems harder. I had it locked in 3rd, and stepped on it at 2400rpm and it just downshifted. (45mph) By 80mph I'm already up to 4200rpm in 3rd. Not sure if I can really do a broader range accurately. As for speed, in my area the freeway is 90km/h, so most of this is well above the limit, and the cops are touchy after several high speed street races (including one that killed an RCMP officer a few months back). Saftey first!

Fred,

Make sure to log only one group at a time and optimize your settings for the best timing:

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/tour/option_screen.html

I get around 3.5 samples per second and it's plenty for data like this. Acceleration curves are pretty smooth, even with peaky engines: