mechanical pump

xriss

Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Location
SCOTLAND
hi can anybody help me...regarding a mechanical pump for a VW GOLF 1.9 tdi 90hp model....im transplanting in to a vw syncro caravel and i want to get rid of the wiring ...sensors ect...has anybody done this? ie mapped or made a pump for this lump?? please advise on where i can get my hands on one...cheers all scottish chris:)
 

michigandon

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Location
Wake Forest, NC
TDI
1998 A3
Joe, could I possibly trouble you for that information as well?

Would love to know how to convert one of these things to all mechanical!

Thanks,
Don
 

gidb36

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Location
Sioux Falls,SD
TDI
Beetle,1998,White,1988 Suzuki Samurai with Ecodiesel installed
Me too?Sorry to be a pest but I would love to put one of these in a suzuki samurai withour the wiring.
Thanks,Gid
 

RabbitGTDJoe

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Location
Southern Tier, Central New York
TDI
1981 Rabbit GTD (future TDI)
This is basically a copy of the PM i sent to xriss. The only think I hope here is that out of this the info ultimately is being used for personal use...not for those to make money off it by doing it for others. I have shared it with others who have done just that and I would have been all over it except for the fact that I just don't have that much "extra" money to buy extra pumps, etc. to do this... Anyways...

There are the hybrid pumps that people use which basically is taking an older turbo diesel pump from say an older VW IDI TD and using its mechanical guts and then swapping in the camplate and 10mm head from the electronic TDI pump into it. It works...isn't the best way for a few reasons. The base part of the pump used for the hybrid was made initally to work on the older, much lower injection pressure IDI engines. Therefore when turning the pressures needed to power the TDI engine needs the shafts can snap, as well as other things go wrong. Generally, all the hybrids I have seen don't put out the power potential they possibly could...or if they do...they don't do it safely IMO. There are those that swap the straight IDI VW pump onto the TDI as well...but once again...as mentioned, the IDI motors operate at about half the injection pressure that the TDI does...so, with the pump fully turned up...you'd only be getting to stock TDI hp/tq figures or maybe slightly over.

Then there is the method that I have gone about doing and we tried and tested my pump initially on my friends Synchro Vanagon Westfalia mTDI setup. I'm sure you all have seen or heard of Karl Mullendore. He was running a hybrid pump. I thought of using the Cummins 4bt injection pump which is the same style pump as used on the older IDI VW's as well as the TDI's, but this is a DI (direct injection) specific fuel injection pump. The cummins engine it was made for is similar to the VW TDI and operates in and around the same injection pressures. The pump has a larger mainshaft as compared to that of the IDI style VE pumps so it can easily turn the injection pressures needed for the TDI. They are also fairly easy to find too and the swap isn't all that hard. The smoothness at which they run the motor is amazing and the power to vouch. The only major modifications required is that you must swap the gov. components of a VW TD mechanical pump into the cummins gov. housing, or use an entire VW gov. assembly in the cummins pump. The cummins pump in stock form has a totally different style gov (as this came of delivery van style applications that rev. very low)compared to what is needed to supply fuel from 0-4800+rpms... the details would be for another post, on a more individual basis...

Let me know if you want more info, etc. or need help... I can provide whatever I can over the internet here and such. This isn't all the info just for the above purposes. I also know that Karl after testing mine was able to buy a few extras as well and might be willing to do them for people but there are a few parts that are "harder" to find and thus make it difficult to just do on a regular basis...

Here is also a site that sells "mechanical" TDI pumps as well, Karl pointed this out to me... in the UK I believe, seems like an honest guy and the pump he is using looks similar to my 4bt pump and Karls.
http://www.syncro-bernd-jaeger.de/EN...neuer_tdi.html

A little pricey...can be def. done for cheaper than that...but, its an option... just thought I'd throw the link out there to you...


There are other issues such as the injection pump sprocket to deal with using the 4bt cummins pump (cummins nose is shorter than that of the TDI pump nose) , but its a fairly simple fix and such...and the driveability and power of it is amazing. In my case I machined the beefy MKIV style injection pump pulley and turned it backwards on the hub...lines right up. For Karl's purposes he used a 1.9AAZ pump pulley (which is adjustable as well) and turned it backwards on the hub. Its a little less beefy in construction...but works. Its also still available through the dealer or WorldImpex... around the $50.00 price tag area. Would still need to find the "hub" the adjustable units set on though too. The other option is to machine the old 1.6 style pulley at the machine shop to fit properly on the Cummins pump nose. Alot of options...I personally liked the idea of the adjustable unit myself. I forsee "pre set" advance marks for say making a run on the track vs. normal highway driving, etc. just to easily set, adjust and check against the gauge by loosening three bolts in one location vs. 4 on the old style and MK3/B4 style setups...

Here are a few pics.
The MKIV style TDI pump vs. the Cummins 4bt pump (before modification of the gov. assembly) note the differences between the "noses" of the pumps...

Also, the MKIV style injection pump sprocket prior to machining

Partials of the difference between the cummins gov. assembly (RIGHT) and the VW TD style assembly (LEFT).

MKIV style injection pump sprocket after machining...had "bubble" removed from the front side of the sprocket so it could be turned backwards on the hub and line up the camshaft, etc. relative to the pump without hitting the injection pump bracket...


4bt pump with VW TD throttle shaft bushing transferred to 4bt pump as well as VW TD throttle shaft and caged gov. assembly. Still more to be done and more Karl and I are talking about...this doesn't detail everything...but you get the idea.


maybe Karl will see this and chime in on how he feels about it in his van. I can tell you though, when I heard it run... WOW :) so smooth compared to all the other mechanical TDI's i've heard/seen and he said the power is just as impressive.

Joe
 
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RabbitGTDJoe

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Location
Southern Tier, Central New York
TDI
1981 Rabbit GTD (future TDI)
that one link is the same link that is in the above thread. Same guy, same site...same price...

The other is through Jack...I'm wondering what "route" they are going about to make the mechanical pumps? Might be worth an inquiry but I'm sure its the "hybrid" route. Using a 1.6 TD pump base and swapping in the TDI camplate and plunger/10mm head assembly. Not rocket science again...but not the best solution IMO either if that is what they are doing. Not a bad price though, but a cummins pump could be setup for about the same or a little less if you have TD cores around and would be a DI specific pump made to handle DI injection pressures and will output them as well. :)
Not to knock those that have the hybrid pump because many are up and running fine, just haven't seen much in the way of "power" from them. The engine will run though :)

Joe
 
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mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 1, 2003
Location
england
TDI
mk3 tdi golf
I think this is what Simon did with his mechanical pump too but used a 11mm p and camplate/12mm plunger......he said it flowed more than twice that of a 10/11mm and r520's.
 

RabbitGTDJoe

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Location
Southern Tier, Central New York
TDI
1981 Rabbit GTD (future TDI)
It'd be interesting to hear what he did...especially with the power he was putting down with that intial setup. I'd be interested in whether it was a IDI pump base w/ the smaller input shaft or whether it was a DI specific pump, or a pumped based on a larger input shaft to begin with. For some reason i think I remember emailing with him and him saying that it was NOT an VW IDI pump base.

Joe
 

piper106

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2002
Location
Grosse Ile MI
TDI
2001 New Beetle Blue
There has been a lot of discussion on this subject over at vw diesel.net

As far as I know the earlier VW 1.6L NA and Turbo injection pumps used a 17 mm drive shaft, and a 9.5 mm plunger. Bosch pumps on the VW TDI, and the Cummins 4BT both had 20 mm drive shafts, the TDI pump having either a 10 mm plunger (manual trans cars) or 11 mm (auto trans), both being electronic control, the Cummins 4BT having a 12 mm plunger and mechanical control. There are also differences in the camplate (the TDI camplate has the most lift and the rise is quicker than the other pumps) and the delivery valves.

Now comes the interesting part. Have been told that at least some of the 92 to 98 VW IDI turbo diesels sold in Canada with fully mechanical pumps have a 20 mm drive shaft. Swap in the TDI plunger, camplate, and delivery valves, you are good to go.

That is all I think I know.

Piper106
 

RabbitGTDJoe

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Location
Southern Tier, Central New York
TDI
1981 Rabbit GTD (future TDI)
You are correct....some AAZ 1.9 IDI injection pumps do have the larger input shaft like the 4bt pump and make excellent donors when the TDI camplate and 10, 11mm head are added. The camplate is very specific between IDI and DI engines. If you look at a cummins 4bt camplate it has a similar curve to the TDI 10mm unit but has about 20% more lift on the top of it...
It'd be nice to compare a TDI 11mm camplate to that...
AAZ pumps are harder to find...thus why i don't think you see more people using them...
Joe
 

mojogoes

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 1, 2003
Location
england
TDI
mk3 tdi golf
Joe do you think the 11mm camplate will be/have the same higher lift as the cummins 4bt camplate?
 

RabbitGTDJoe

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Location
Southern Tier, Central New York
TDI
1981 Rabbit GTD (future TDI)
I'm going to guess that the 11mm camplate is going to have a similar profile to it as the 12mm but I don't think it will have as much lift as the 12mm unit. I'd really love to get my hands on one to see and compare it to the TDI 10mm and the 4bt's 12mm.

Joe
 

mattyc5094

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Location
Patterson N.Y.
TDI
2006 jetta BRM,2000 Jetta ALH 2009 sportwagon tdi (totalled),1999.5golf tdi 1998 GOLF (4) RABBIT diesels, 81 Dasher diesel, 2005 DODGE CUMMINS
bought a 98 golf gl gasser, put a 96 passat tdi engine in it with a 1.6 td pump. car has the 5spd from the gasser along with the clutch. put over 5k miles on it. engine turns 3000rpm @ 69mph. gets 38-41 mpg. car runs great with 1.6 mechanical pump. i am not running a intercooler on it. does anybody know if an intercooler will increase power and mileage noticably. i will spend the money and time if its worth it. if not i'm happy with what i have.
 

RabbitGTDJoe

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Location
Southern Tier, Central New York
TDI
1981 Rabbit GTD (future TDI)
If the 1.6TD pump can supply the extra fuel needed for the boost. Your mpg to me looks pretty low at the moment for a TDI. The 1.6TD pump in stock form, turned all the way up only would supply fuel to run the TDI at stock hp/tq levels...I doubt without a little bit of modification (a 10mm head/plunger conversion comes to mind) that you'll see alot of improvement... Its just not made for a DI application but as long as your not going to go "crazy" with hp/tq then it would be fine. I'd start by giving it more fuel potential with a 10mm head/plunger conversion as well as intercool it...

Joe
 

2005passatsteve

Active member
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Location
Ontario Canada
TDI
2005 passat tdi wagon, 2004 Jetta TDI, 1992 Jetta TD, 1997 Jetta TD, 1991 Passat Gas wagon converted to Standard tranny and TD.
I have the newer style IP with the adjustable 3 bolt sytem on the drive cog, in my older 1989 1.6L TD engine, but am restling with smoke and hard starting. Anyone know what is ideal injection pump dial settings for this setup?? ( the pump came from my 97 1.9L TD jetta)
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
thanks joe for sharing the info...used to be an active thread over at GTD index http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=6427.0 ...that forum has really slowed down over the past year.... maybe too much info for the silver spoon tdi kids ;) ...but I used it to build a TDI M pump using a three cylinder DI body (have no idea what it came from) a mitsubishi/denso/cat throttle assembly, some IDI parts, and a 10mm TDI pump head and camplate...it was a "frankenpump" but it did bench start my buddies AHU immediately and reved effing quick as hell!! we still have not transplanted into the caddy yet but it's a comin'.... I'll post some pics of my test "jig" for checking clearances on the TDI' M build...:)
 

shaunsummer

Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Location
minnesota
TDI
2002 golf black
hi im new to this forum and was wondering if you could give more information on how to do the complete 4bt pump swap, or a place that could build a pump for me, im looking for the most fuel output i can get from it
 

BleachedBora

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Location
Gresham, Oregon
TDI
'81 DMC-12, '15 GL350 CDI 275 hp/448 tq - '81 Caddy CJAA, '05 E320 CDI 250hp/450 tq, '23 ID4 AWD Pro S Plus
I have some transporter m-pumps. Trying to find the best use for them...got me thinking now....
 

Growler

Got Soot Vendor
Joined
Nov 24, 2003
Location
Millersport, Ohio
TDI
Schmutz, 2015 Golf Sportwagen DSG & Schnurren, 2001 Golf GL 2 door 5M
you need to store one on my shelf ;) so I can put one in a transporter cougheurovancough sometime in the future. :D
 

Crazy Conversions

New member
Joined
Jan 26, 2012
Location
Arizona
TDI
1.9
Great info!

This is basically a copy of the PM i sent to xriss. The only think I hope here is that out of this the info ultimately is being used for personal use...not for those to make money off it by doing it for others. I have shared it with others who have done just that and I would have been all over it except for the fact that I just don't have that much "extra" money to buy extra pumps, etc. to do this... Anyways...

There are the hybrid pumps that people use which basically is taking an older turbo diesel pump from say an older VW IDI TD and using its mechanical guts and then swapping in the camplate and 10mm head from the electronic TDI pump into it. It works...isn't the best way for a few reasons. The base part of the pump used for the hybrid was made initally to work on the older, much lower injection pressure IDI engines. Therefore when turning the pressures needed to power the TDI engine needs the shafts can snap, as well as other things go wrong. Generally, all the hybrids I have seen don't put out the power potential they possibly could...or if they do...they don't do it safely IMO. There are those that swap the straight IDI VW pump onto the TDI as well...but once again...as mentioned, the IDI motors operate at about half the injection pressure that the TDI does...so, with the pump fully turned up...you'd only be getting to stock TDI hp/tq figures or maybe slightly over.

Then there is the method that I have gone about doing and we tried and tested my pump initially on my friends Synchro Vanagon Westfalia mTDI setup. I'm sure you all have seen or heard of Karl Mullendore. He was running a hybrid pump. I thought of using the Cummins 4bt injection pump which is the same style pump as used on the older IDI VW's as well as the TDI's, but this is a DI (direct injection) specific fuel injection pump. The cummins engine it was made for is similar to the VW TDI and operates in and around the same injection pressures. The pump has a larger mainshaft as compared to that of the IDI style VE pumps so it can easily turn the injection pressures needed for the TDI. They are also fairly easy to find too and the swap isn't all that hard. The smoothness at which they run the motor is amazing and the power to vouch. The only major modifications required is that you must swap the gov. components of a VW TD mechanical pump into the cummins gov. housing, or use an entire VW gov. assembly in the cummins pump. The cummins pump in stock form has a totally different style gov (as this came of delivery van style applications that rev. very low)compared to what is needed to supply fuel from 0-4800+rpms... the details would be for another post, on a more individual basis...

Let me know if you want more info, etc. or need help... I can provide whatever I can over the internet here and such. This isn't all the info just for the above purposes. I also know that Karl after testing mine was able to buy a few extras as well and might be willing to do them for people but there are a few parts that are "harder" to find and thus make it difficult to just do on a regular basis...

Here is also a site that sells "mechanical" TDI pumps as well, Karl pointed this out to me... in the UK I believe, seems like an honest guy and the pump he is using looks similar to my 4bt pump and Karls.
http://www.syncro-bernd-jaeger.de/EN...neuer_tdi.html

A little pricey...can be def. done for cheaper than that...but, its an option... just thought I'd throw the link out there to you...


There are other issues such as the injection pump sprocket to deal with using the 4bt cummins pump (cummins nose is shorter than that of the TDI pump nose) , but its a fairly simple fix and such...and the driveability and power of it is amazing. In my case I machined the beefy MKIV style injection pump pulley and turned it backwards on the hub...lines right up. For Karl's purposes he used a 1.9AAZ pump pulley (which is adjustable as well) and turned it backwards on the hub. Its a little less beefy in construction...but works. Its also still available through the dealer or WorldImpex... around the $50.00 price tag area. Would still need to find the "hub" the adjustable units set on though too. The other option is to machine the old 1.6 style pulley at the machine shop to fit properly on the Cummins pump nose. Alot of options...I personally liked the idea of the adjustable unit myself. I forsee "pre set" advance marks for say making a run on the track vs. normal highway driving, etc. just to easily set, adjust and check against the gauge by loosening three bolts in one location vs. 4 on the old style and MK3/B4 style setups...

Here are a few pics.
The MKIV style TDI pump vs. the Cummins 4bt pump (before modification of the gov. assembly) note the differences between the "noses" of the pumps...

Also, the MKIV style injection pump sprocket prior to machining

Partials of the difference between the cummins gov. assembly (RIGHT) and the VW TD style assembly (LEFT).

MKIV style injection pump sprocket after machining...had "bubble" removed from the front side of the sprocket so it could be turned backwards on the hub and line up the camshaft, etc. relative to the pump without hitting the injection pump bracket...


4bt pump with VW TD throttle shaft bushing transferred to 4bt pump as well as VW TD throttle shaft and caged gov. assembly. Still more to be done and more Karl and I are talking about...this doesn't detail everything...but you get the idea.


maybe Karl will see this and chime in on how he feels about it in his van. I can tell you though, when I heard it run... WOW :) so smooth compared to all the other mechanical TDI's i've heard/seen and he said the power is just as impressive.

Joe

thanks guys for going through this. i am going to swap this type of set up into a 4wd trooper, of all things. i've always driven VW's nd the trooper is a great little 4-by, but i want the range and power i know i can get from this kind of set up. also, if Joe has any advice for my swap (think doomsday bug-out rig lol), i'd love to hear it. new to the diesel world so ease me in. thanks again!
 

Jet 02

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Location
Californa
TDI
2002 Jetta, Vanagon AHU project
MTDI Pump

From another post. There are factory MTDI pumps, Rover 200TDI and 300TDI. The pulley/sprocket is adjustable like an ALH but has a different bolt pattern but the Rover pump pulley/sprocket is the same diameter and has the same number of teeth. Rover injector cracking pressure is lower I believe. The output check valves on the pump head are different so some just use the VW check valves. There is a lot of monkey motion levers on the side of the pump to control timing retard and advance as the throttle is advanced.
Nice to have a MTDI pump as a back up to DBW.
Tom

PS: Rover pump piston is larger than VW but the cam plate is milder I believe.
 
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