ZDNet: Volkswagen lied. But Elon Musk is dead wrong about diesel cars

[turbovan+tdi]

Yep... that's why I very very rarely (if ever) charge to 100%. 80% in 40 minutes or 100% in 75 minutes; that last 20% takes nearly as long as the first 80. You're going to have some charge when you pull in... so like I said... a 30 minute stop is all I usually need. You get enough juice to get to the next stop, the car knows the terrain and tells you when you've got enough.

I don't feel like waiting for a tow truck or pushing the EV car, so I wouldn't chance it,

 

[vanbcguy]

That's the point though, the Tesla computes its power needs for your planned route. There's no "chancing" anything.

 

[turbovan+tdi]

Meh, still not convinced yet, lol.

 

[nwdiver]

I don't feel like waiting for a tow truck or pushing the EV car, so I wouldn't chance it,

I've never run out of charge even after >75k miles... the car will tell you if you're going to make it. You now even get a text telling you that you've got enough charge to make it to your next charge point.

Tesla introduced 'Range Assurance' a few months ago; It's an app that continuously monitors energy consumption. It's not perfect but it gets better with every OTA software update.

Meh, still not convinced yet, lol.

That's kinda been my central thesis... the shortcomings of EVs are ~90% perceived and ~10% real; That remaining 10% (mostly cost) is decaying at a pretty quick clip and will be gone in <5 years.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

That's the point though, the Tesla computes its power needs for your planned route. There's no "chancing" anything.

Well, you could get stuck in hours of traffic. If weather is bad, you could find yourself out in the cold with no electrons.

Don't get me wrong; that sort of thing happens with traditionally fueled cars, as well. It's hard to plan for every situation (or, to some, any situation).

 

[tadawson]

I'm glad you stopped to take an objective look at the situation and the technology before offering an unbiased opinion...

Tesla knows the status of every Supercharger in real time. What's more, the cars are all connected to the cell network, and Tesla has been working on getting real time data into the car - in the near future I expect them to be actively bypassing overloaded charging locations.

More importantly, though, I've never read of having to wait for a charger except for the three or four busiest locations world wide (most of which are in so cal.)

Tesla has been focusing their effort on expanding the grid rather than adding capacity to the busiest parts, but they've added secondary locations to the busiest parts that appear to have mostly resolved the waits.
Walter

I looked at my primary cross country route, and there are a whopping two in 1350 miles. To hit more, it's 500 miles extra . . . Thanks, but pass . . . I have a life, and it doesn't include wasting time and effort in immature technologies that do *NOTHING* better for *ME* than what I have.

I don't care if Tesla watches thier chargers from orbit - if more than one person shows per unit, the wait is unacceptable!

- Tim

 

[saGhost]

I looked at my primary cross country route, and there are a whopping two in 1350 miles. To hit more, it's 500 miles extra . . . Thanks, but pass . . . I have a life, and it doesn't include wasting time and effort in immature technologies that do *NOTHING* better for *ME* than what I have.

See, now that's a much more reasonable perspective, and I don't entirely disagree with it.

Coverage is certainly an issue, though less of one every month as the net expands.

Wasting time and effort on technologies that offer you nothing better would be foolish indeed.

I personally believe the technologies in question offer me quite a few benefits, in exchange for being mildly constrained on road trips (which I do a few times a year.) Tesla even picks up the cost of fueling for the road trip - making it much cheaper if a little less convenient.

For the other 99% of the time, I get a much better driving experience (if you love diesel torque, wait until you see what instant always-there electric torque can do for you - and the low CGs have to be experienced to be believed,) less maintenance, better reliability, no smelly gas stations, less time wasted fueling/charging (a few seconds to plug in every day at home instead of a trip to the gas station every week or two,) a full tank every morning, cheaper fuel that I can easily make myself (20 x 235W PV panels on the garage roof,) less noise, much less vibration, a more pleasant garage, and easy preconditioning of the car's inside from anywhere by smartphone. This doesn't even touch on the "green aspects that are endlessly debated (but IMHO a clear advantage of EVs for those who care about it.)

It seems like an easy choice to me, for me.

Actually, my problem is I already have 80% of the benefits for much less money (and without the road trip benefits and limitations) in my Volt - I'm having trouble wrapping my head around spending the $$$ for a Tesla to get the rest, but I think I'll get there eventually - especially with Autopilot finally making an appearance for easy road trips.

But of course, your mileage may very. If none of the things I mentioned above are of interest to you, and/or you would be seriously inconvenienced on road trips and take them often then you're making the right choice, for you.
Walter

 

[romad]

I don't care if Tesla watches thier chargers from orbit - if more than one person shows per unit, the wait is unacceptable!

- Tim

So what happens when you pull into the only fuel station around and all the pumps have lines? Continue driving or wait until your turn at the pump? What is your definition of an "unacceptable" wait length? 10 minutes? 15?

BTW, if you think the Tesla charging network is sparse, try driving the new Toyota Mirai

This is it's current fueling network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai

 

[gcodori]

I love the idea that it delinks economy and performance. Nissan leaf econobox with 110 HP uses 300 Wh per mile, Tesla Model S with more than 6x the HorsePower uses 360 Wh per mile. That simply hasn't ever happened before. Imagine if a top of the line ICE sports car got 90% of the fuel economy of a Prius. For the first time you can get power and economy with no compromises.

Well, while not the top of the line (it's actually the CHEAPEST E-class sold), the E250 diesel gets Prius-like mileage and all of the luxury to boot.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...fuel-efficient-new-car-is-not-a-toyota-prius/

 

[Jeta Life]

Mercedes E250 Bluetec

Great car the Benz, what a car.

Safety, Performance, Quiet Luxury versus a bone rattling, noise making "screaming stress case"

 

[otty]

Meh, still not convinced yet, lol.

You know there is a 4 stall charger in my little town of Revelstoke eh? About half way to Red Deer from Abbotsford:

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_CA/findus/location/supercharger/revelstokesupercharger

Personally I hope to hold onto my Passat until I can afford a nice used electric car that works about as well as a current Tesla...

 

[turbovan+tdi]

Well, almost made it to Calgary on a tank of fuel, did one stop in Golden for a pee brake and a coffee, then filled up just before Calgary, then got stuck in traffic on the AB2, massive accident, 2 hour detour. Drove around for 3 days, then topped up and made it back to Kamploops with a 1/4 tank left, filled up and made it home.

Now the EV car might have done the job but for the hassle and cost, not worth it. Total cost of diesel was around $110 for around 1950 km's.

Now does the Tesla calculate for construction? I had numerous stops and slow down's as they are widening route 1 from basically Golden to Alberta, 10 year plan.

 

[tikal]

Myth 9 (Resource Restraints);

In 1995 lithium reserve base was ~8.4M tons

In 2014 lithium reserve base was ~13.5M tons

That's enough lithium for ~5B cars... we're obviously still finding more... and lithium isn't used as fuel, it can be recycled into new batteries.

Thanks for the update on the lithium reserves in the world.

In the mean time the mining will continue being done using diesel (without DPF, EGR and very dark) and the EPA will not take into account the impacts of said mining outside the US such as sub-human conditions in the mines (non-Western countries), deforestation (non-Western countries), displacement of population due to mining (non-Western countries), etc.

I think non-ICE will be the future (long term) in various forms but the overall environmental and human impacts are very complex to say the least for the time being.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Well, almost made it to Calgary on a tank of fuel, did one stop in Golden for a pee brake and a coffee, then filled up just before Calgary, then got stuck in traffic on the AB2, massive accident, 2 hour detour. Drove around for 3 days, then topped up and made it back to Kamploops with a 1/4 tank left, filled up and made it home.

Now the EV car might have done the job but for the hassle and cost, not worth it. Total cost of diesel was around $110 for around 1950 km's.

Now does the Tesla calculate for construction? I had numerous stops and slow down's as they are widening route 1 from basically Golden to Alberta, 10 year plan.

Slow traffic in an electric car would likely increase your range, from the lower power required to maintain the lower average speed - unless you're using a lot of climate control.

 

[turbovan+tdi]

Slow traffic in an electric car would likely increase your range, from the lower power required to maintain the lower average speed - unless you're using a lot of climate control.

Makes sense. Now if it had been summer, the a/c would have been cranked.

 

[nj1266]

I don't know where this comes from. I was comparing late-1800s EVs to late-1800s internal combustion engined cars. By your implied logic, did we have the benefit of internal combustion engines with all the modern technological niceties in the turn of the last century powering Duryeas, Benzes and Ford Model Ts, too?

The keyword is "converting," i.e. from electricity, which must first be generated from somewhere, then be transmitted, stored in batteries, etc., before being delivered to said motors. Each step of the way presents losses. An AC synchronous efficiency may be up to about 96% efficient at converting electrical power to rotary motion, but the roundtrip losses from the battery and power electronics on the vehicle itself brings the efficiency level to the ~60-65% range (85% each for battery charging and discharging, 95% for power electronics), to speak nothing of generation and transmission losses. The headline >90% motor efficiency figure is convenient to toss about and the ignorant media and masses will eat it up, but doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story.

There is a Toyota study on the efficiency from well to wheel of different drivetrain technology. At its best the well to wheel of an ICE is 14% vs 30% for an EV. No matter how you cut it (well to wheel or gas tank to wheel) the EV is more efficient.

Sent from my iPhone 8

 

[gcodori]

There is a Toyota study on the efficiency from well to wheel of different drivetrain technology. At its best the well to wheel of an ICE is 14% vs 30% for an EV. No matter how you cut it (well to wheel or gas tank to wheel) the EV is more efficient.

Sent from my iPhone 8

According to the chart a hybrid is more efficient than an EV (34 vs 33). Diesel wasn't included. A diesel hybrid would top the chart then.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[saGhost]

Thanks for the update on the lithium reserves in the world.
In the mean time the mining will continue being done using diesel (without DPF, EGR and very dark) and the EPA will not take into account the impacts of said mining outside the US such as sub-human conditions in the mines (non-Western countries), deforestation (non-Western countries), displacement of population due to mining (non-Western countries), etc.
I think non-ICE will be the future (long term) in various forms but the overall environmental and human impacts are very complex to say the least for the time being.

Source?

The couple examples of Lithium mining I'm aware of use very little power - mostly direct solar power to evaporate deep ground water (like from geo-thermal plants) to precipitate the Lithium out of it.
Walter